I would agree, except that Akane as a trap specialist would get a benefit from higher stealth. It's not too big of a deal, but I think we should consider that before deciding anything.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
I would agree, except that Akane as a trap specialist would get a benefit from higher stealth. It's not too big of a deal, but I think we should consider that before deciding anything.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I checked the plans, though, and it'd pretty much just swap the costs for their plans, so even if Akane remained a stealthy member (which would only cost her 234 XP, give or take a level of wits) she'd still be about the same cost as Nobby while giving him significantly more options (this is on a quick eye-balling of things, though, so forgive any miscalculations).
Not 'fucked' but can I ask why?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
It's probably because he's the player character more than anything that I feel so strongly protective toward the rest of the party but less so toward him. So basically the same instincts Mari acted on in Hot Springs.
- Location
- Europe
I'm kinda worried about the update, namely that it's going to be another Bonfire of Tapirs or Mistakes. We have no combat plan in place which means there will be no direct player influence on what will happen. Big, exciting fight scenes are nice, but I can't really bring myself to care about them if we didn't make decisions about how they should go down. That's even with @eaglejarl's excellent writing.
But I guess that's on us, we should've made an actual combat plan when we had the time. (But then again we were struggling with the actual plans, so it's not like we had extra juice to spend on that.)
To be fair, the plan was to observe her from very far away from high platforms made out of 5SB'd ice, using teammates transformed into giant telescopes. It just turned out that we can't actually do any of that stuff.
At that point we probably should've changed gears and voted to do nothing, but that is kind of an anathema to me; I really don't want another VHitM.
Yeah, Akane was slated for Stealth with Keiko originally (I don't really like the idea of solo operatives, teamwork is where it's at), but I feel like we need to swap one them for Nobby.
I don't actually have strong opinions on who should be our Diplomancer, the builds I made are less suggestions more something I did to figure out what we can actually do.
Stealth specced Akane gets something like 2 dice more to Traps from Stealth, which is not really a deal breaker whatever way we go.
A better argument for Stealth and Traps in the same build is that the places we want to sneak in will most likely be trapped. So if Akane is not there to deal with the traps we need another solution, in Keiko's case it would probably be summons.
But I guess that's on us, we should've made an actual combat plan when we had the time. (But then again we were struggling with the actual plans, so it's not like we had extra juice to spend on that.)
To be fair, the plan was to observe her from very far away from high platforms made out of 5SB'd ice, using teammates transformed into giant telescopes. It just turned out that we can't actually do any of that stuff.
At that point we probably should've changed gears and voted to do nothing, but that is kind of an anathema to me; I really don't want another VHitM.
Yeah, Akane was slated for Stealth with Keiko originally (I don't really like the idea of solo operatives, teamwork is where it's at), but I feel like we need to swap one them for Nobby.
I don't actually have strong opinions on who should be our Diplomancer, the builds I made are less suggestions more something I did to figure out what we can actually do.
Stealth specced Akane gets something like 2 dice more to Traps from Stealth, which is not really a deal breaker whatever way we go.
A better argument for Stealth and Traps in the same build is that the places we want to sneak in will most likely be trapped. So if Akane is not there to deal with the traps we need another solution, in Keiko's case it would probably be summons.
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Unfortunately I cant relate,I view them equally. Refraining to say more.
(Anyone know why its hard to express emotions about fictional characters on a internet forum?)
I definitely agree with making Nobby stealthy; what I haven't decided is whether to replace him with Akane or Keiko.
- Location
- Yes.
Keiko is better IMO; she needs higher Diplomacy in order to make Pangolin contracts, and HEY it's a good thing to help our introvert...not be.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Plus, as a summoner Keiko will be expected to be in the public eye (to the extent that ninjas do that), and her fame will be beneficial during negotiations with humans as well.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
(Quickly ducks in during a short break.)
Y'all did make a plan. You spent a lot of time talking about frontal assault vs draining through mist vs poisoning in the village. I'm working off that discussion.
(Vanishes back to work.)
- Location
- Yes.
@eaglejarl Is that why it took so long? Aww, you didn't have to plan how we'd fight for us, that's our job 
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
But... but... I'm leaving Internet land now! I probably won't have internet for another 6 days!
*shakes fist good naturedly about free entertainment being slightly delayed due to reclusive lifestyle*
To be fair, if he hadn't, he wouldn't have been able to write the fight scene, and we all know he likes his fight scenes@eaglejarl Is that why it took so long? Aww, you didn't have to plan how we'd fight for us, that's our job
Also to be fair so do I
- Location
- Europe
While it is nice that you will be using the few ideas (did we even come up with anything practical?) we came up with during brainstorming, we never made an actual decision on which path we should pursue. In my opinion, the act of making a decision is what really connects participants to the quest and makes them care. Otherwise we might as well be reading a standard serial fiction.
But that's just my personal take and others will probably disagree, and like I said, ultimately it's on us for not deciding stuff making more comprehensive plans. I was just kinda hoping we could do better here than on our previous missions. Maybe next time?
- Location
- USA
It seems to be a product of Arikada showing up so early (which was bad luck for us). Besides, even if we plan something specifically wrt combat Inoue or someone could override us (which is realistic)
- Location
- Europe
Alright, before the update drops, here's a jounin level team build with Hazou and Keiko as the social pair. Definitely contains mistakes, I just haven't found all of them yet.
Hazou - Deceptive Sealmaster
Hazou's build is the same as before. High Deception, Sealing 20, Animal Transformation, heavy reliance on Roki for combat and four earth jutsu for utility.
Keiko - Charming Weapon Mistress
Keiko works as the Diplomancer for social situations. With her Deal Making subskill, I feel like we could get away with Diplomacy 18 or 20. She is also slated for four wind jutsu, with emphasis on Wind Wall. It should have good synergy with Hazou and most combat summons.
Noburi - Stealthy Doctor
I lowered Noburi's Water Whip to 22, since that is enough to challenge 24 dice Taijutsu or Weapons specialist if both are boosting fully. He still doesn't have that much room for Water Jutsu, but at least his medical skills are noteworthy.
Base Stealth is 21, but that can be raised if we are okay with getting less water jutsu. See the Fun Stuff portion of the build.
Akane - Stealthy Fire Trap
Best apprentice takes care of all our high level Stealth and Trap needs. She has the lightest build in the team, meaning there are quite many ways how to build her after the essentials are covered. I tried to note down costs of things we might most likely want, but the Fun Stuff is by no means comprehensive.
Some general points:
Hazou - Deceptive Sealmaster
Hazou's build is the same as before. High Deception, Sealing 20, Animal Transformation, heavy reliance on Roki for combat and four earth jutsu for utility.
Base
Current Total: 1030XP
Specializations
- Skill
- Awareness 21 - 111XP
- TacMove 20(21) - 90XP
- Taijutsu 16(17) - 31XP
- Stealth 15(16) - 65XP
- Weapons 9(10) - 42XP
- Jutsu
- Transformation 20 - 155XP
- Substitution 20 - 165XP
- MEW 10 - 34XP
- Earth Clone 9 - 22XP
- Utility 1 10 - 27.5XP
- Utility 2 10 - 27.5XP
- Cost: 770XP
- Attributes
- Wits 7 - 26XP
- Res 5 - 18XP
- Str 5 - 10XP
- Dex 7 - 26XP
- Sta 5 - 10XP
- Cap 15 - 130XP
- Con 4 - 14XP
- Reg 10 - 40XP
- Cost: 274XP
Current Total: 1030XP
Specializations
- Sealing
- Sealing 20 - 119XP
- Int 20 - 238XP
- Cost: 357
- Social
- Deception 24 - 222XP
- Diplomacy 16 - 100XP
- Roki 12 - 57XP
- Pre 8 - 52XP
- Man 12 - 114XP
- Com 8 - 52XP
- Cost: 597XP
Keiko - Charming Weapon Mistress
Keiko works as the Diplomancer for social situations. With her Deal Making subskill, I feel like we could get away with Diplomacy 18 or 20. She is also slated for four wind jutsu, with emphasis on Wind Wall. It should have good synergy with Hazou and most combat summons.
Base
Current Total: 1536,5XP
Social Options:
Pick one.
- Skills
- Weapons 24 - 90XP
- Stealth 16 - 81XP
- Tactical Movement 21 - 111XP
- Awareness 18 - 93XP
- Jutsu
- Summoning 20 - 155XP
- Substitution 20 - 174XP
- Transformation 10 - 52XP
- Zephyr 10 - 19XP
- Wind Wall 14 - 77.5XP
- Util Jutsu A 10 - 27.5XP
- Util Jutsu B 10 - 27.5XP
- Cost: 907,5 XP
- Attributes
- Int 7 - 36XP
- Wits 6 - 22XP
- Res 7 - 36XP
- Str 1 - 0XP
- Dex 8 - 16XP
- Sta 5 - 10XP
- Cap 22 - 324XP
- Con 10 - 80XP
- Reg 15 - 105XP
- Cost: 629XP
Current Total: 1536,5XP
Social Options:
Pick one.
- Social A
- Diplomacy 18 - 116XP
- Deception 18 - 135XP
- Deal Making 12 - 57XP
- Pre 9 - 60XP
- Man 9 - 70XP
- Com 6 - 22XP
- Total: 460XP
- Social B
- Diplomacy 20 - 155XP
- Deception 16 - 100XP
- Deal Making 10 - 34XP
- Pre 10 - 80XP
- Man 8 - 52XP
- Com 7 - 36XP
- Total: 457XP
Noburi - Stealthy Doctor
I lowered Noburi's Water Whip to 22, since that is enough to challenge 24 dice Taijutsu or Weapons specialist if both are boosting fully. He still doesn't have that much room for Water Jutsu, but at least his medical skills are noteworthy.
Base Stealth is 21, but that can be raised if we are okay with getting less water jutsu. See the Fun Stuff portion of the build.
Base
Fun Stuff
Fun Stuff Budget: 355XP
Pick as many as you can fit inside the budget.
Water Clone 21 - 30XP
Vampiric Dew 20 - 90XP
Syrup Trap 15 - 31XP
Water Jutsu A 10 - 27.5XP
Water Jutsu B 15 - 60XP
Water Jutsu C 20 - 105XP
Stealth 24 (Dex 8) - 85XP
Overall Total: ~2000XP
- Skills
- Stealth 21 - 95XP
- Medicine 21 - 225XP
- MedJutsu 20 - 189XP
- TacMov 21 - 111XP
- Awareness 18 - 93XP
- Substitution 20 - 174XP
- Transformation 10 - 0XP
- Diplomacy 12 - 0XP
- Deception 10 - 19XP
- Jutsu
- WaterWhip 22 - 133XP
- Water Clones 18 - 68XP
- VD 15 - 0XP
- Syrup Trap 12 - 0XP
- Cost: 1107XP
- Attributes
- Int 7 - 50XP
- Wits 7 - 36XP
- Res 10 - 98XP
- Str 1 - 0XP
- Dex 7 - 26XP
- Sta 4 - 8XP
- Pre 6 - 0XP
- Man 5 - 10XP
- Com 4 - 0XP
- Con 20 - 310XP
- Cost: 538XP
Fun Stuff
Fun Stuff Budget: 355XP
Pick as many as you can fit inside the budget.
Water Clone 21 - 30XP
Vampiric Dew 20 - 90XP
Syrup Trap 15 - 31XP
Water Jutsu A 10 - 27.5XP
Water Jutsu B 15 - 60XP
Water Jutsu C 20 - 105XP
Stealth 24 (Dex 8) - 85XP
Overall Total: ~2000XP
Akane - Stealthy Fire Trap
Best apprentice takes care of all our high level Stealth and Trap needs. She has the lightest build in the team, meaning there are quite many ways how to build her after the essentials are covered. I tried to note down costs of things we might most likely want, but the Fun Stuff is by no means comprehensive.
Base
Fun Stuff
Fun Stuff Budget: 615XP
Pick and choose from these to fill out Akane's build with appropriate Skills and Jutsu.
Another MechApt Spec. 24 - 180XP
Transformation 20 - 155XP
First Fire Jutsu 10 - 47,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 15 - 112,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 20 - 202,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 22 - 245,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 24 - 292,5
Fire Jutsu B 10 - 27.5XP
Fire Jutsu B 15 - 60XP
Fire Jutsu B 20 - 105XP
Don't forget attributes. Higher jutsu levels require more control and multiple jutsu demand more Capacity and Reg.
- Skills
- Stealth 24 - 234XP
- Traps 24 - 180XP
- TacMove 21 - 111XP
- Awareness 21 - 186XP
- Taijutsu 17 - 33XP
- Youthful Fist 14 - 73XP
- Diplomacy 10 - 34XP
- Deception 10 - 34XP
- Jutsu
- Substitution 20 - 155XP
- Transformation 10 - 54XP
- Cost:1094XP
- Attributes
- Int 2 - 0XP
- Wits 7 - 36XP
- Res 5 - 24XP
- Str 11 - 0XP
- Dex 8 - 42XP
- Sta 11 - 0XP
- Cap 15 - 130XP
- Con 4 - 14XP
- Reg 10 - 45XP
- Cost: 291XP
Fun Stuff
Fun Stuff Budget: 615XP
Pick and choose from these to fill out Akane's build with appropriate Skills and Jutsu.
Another MechApt Spec. 24 - 180XP
Transformation 20 - 155XP
First Fire Jutsu 10 - 47,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 15 - 112,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 20 - 202,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 22 - 245,5XP
First Fire Jutsu 24 - 292,5
Fire Jutsu B 10 - 27.5XP
Fire Jutsu B 15 - 60XP
Fire Jutsu B 20 - 105XP
Don't forget attributes. Higher jutsu levels require more control and multiple jutsu demand more Capacity and Reg.
Con 5 - 10XP // Fire Jutsu ~15
Con 6 - 22XP
Con 7 - 36XP
Con 8 - 52XP //Fire Jutsu ~24
Cap 16 - 32XP
Cap 17 - 66XP
Cap 18 - 102XP
Cap 19 - 140XP
Cap 20 - 180XP
Reg 11 - 11XP
Reg 12 - 23XP
Reg 13 - 36XP
Reg 14 - 50XP
Reg 15 - 65XP
Con 6 - 22XP
Con 7 - 36XP
Con 8 - 52XP //Fire Jutsu ~24
Cap 16 - 32XP
Cap 17 - 66XP
Cap 18 - 102XP
Cap 19 - 140XP
Cap 20 - 180XP
Reg 11 - 11XP
Reg 12 - 23XP
Reg 13 - 36XP
Reg 14 - 50XP
Reg 15 - 65XP
This Jutsu gives Akane a secondary MechApt specialization and three fire jutsu. The 15 dice jutsu won't be enough for direct damage, unless they use other skills (like TacMov) to boost the dice amount, so expect mostly buffs, debuffs, and battlefield control.
Another MechApt Spec. 24 - 180XP
First Fire Jutsu 15 - 112,5XP
Fire Jutsu B 15 - 60XP
Fire Jutsu C 10 - 27.5XP
Fire Jutsu C 10 - 27.5XP
Con 5 - 36XP
Cap 18 - 102XP
Reg 15 - 65XP
Total Cost: 610,5XP
Another MechApt Spec. 24 - 180XP
First Fire Jutsu 15 - 112,5XP
Fire Jutsu B 15 - 60XP
Fire Jutsu C 10 - 27.5XP
Fire Jutsu C 10 - 27.5XP
Con 5 - 36XP
Cap 18 - 102XP
Reg 15 - 65XP
Total Cost: 610,5XP
Some general points:
- Everyone can roll their main combat stat against a jounin with Weapons 24 and expect to win half the time
- Everyone has access to +2 mass combat bonus when fighting against a jouning with Weapons 24
- Team Stealth: 16
- Team TacMov: 21
- Transformation 10 might be a waste of XP
- Fitting TH in there somewhere is left as an exercise for the reader, I couldn't do it
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay, work is done for the day and I'm back to writing. (Half day because startup and Halloween.)
I certainly wasn't trying to cut you out of making decisions. I honestly thought we were all on page and that I was executing the plan y'all had made -- y'all came up with three options (frontal, mist drain, spike her drugs and drain at night) and there seemed to be general agreement on the "bring her in alive if it's convenient but don't worry about it too much as long as we don't smush her head". Mari even reviewed the three plans in @Velorien's update. As far as I could tell y'all had discussed it thoroughly and made the decision.
Or, alternatively, look at it as "Yay! By the time I get back to civilization I will have two or maybe three times as much to read!"
I certainly wasn't trying to cut you out of making decisions. I honestly thought we were all on page and that I was executing the plan y'all had made -- y'all came up with three options (frontal, mist drain, spike her drugs and drain at night) and there seemed to be general agreement on the "bring her in alive if it's convenient but don't worry about it too much as long as we don't smush her head". Mari even reviewed the three plans in @Velorien's update. As far as I could tell y'all had discussed it thoroughly and made the decision.
Hey, you could always take another zero. :>
Or, alternatively, look at it as "Yay! By the time I get back to civilization I will have two or maybe three times as much to read!"
I do indeed, yes. None of that "fully-fleshed-out characterization" and "realistic yet entertaining dialogue" and "well-considered worldbuilding" stuff. Just nice simple punching. And explosions. Mustn't forget the explosions.To be fair, if he hadn't, he wouldn't have been able to write the fight scene, and we all know he likes his fight scenes
Also to be fair so do I
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
How I imagine my reaction to the chapter will be, incidentally
@Twofold this is an awesome resource, thanks for doing so much work putting it together.
Comparing Akane's STR/STA 11, she will more than max out her Youthful Fist bonus dice (10) even against Hazou (in fact, against anyone with highest of STR/STA below 7, and get +9 against someone with STR or STA at 8), so I would be willing to buy up 3 or maybe even 6 more YF levels.
I recognize levelling VD is expensive for Noburi but it still feels wrong to leave him at 15. I mean really, who would get to semi-legendary status and just stop? In other words, I would vote very vocally for the VD 20 option in his Fun Stuff budget.
Since we'll hopefully have Hazou on Decep at pretty much all the big negotiations, I would push for Kei to get Diplo 20.
Hazou just looks really solid in general. I hope we live long enough to see these become a reality (@eaglejarl's dice pls)
@Twofold this is an awesome resource, thanks for doing so much work putting it together.
Is 10 the point at which it no longer needs handseals?
Comparing Akane's STR/STA 11, she will more than max out her Youthful Fist bonus dice (10) even against Hazou (in fact, against anyone with highest of STR/STA below 7, and get +9 against someone with STR or STA at 8), so I would be willing to buy up 3 or maybe even 6 more YF levels.
I recognize levelling VD is expensive for Noburi but it still feels wrong to leave him at 15. I mean really, who would get to semi-legendary status and just stop?
In other words, I would vote very vocally for the VD 20 option in his Fun Stuff budget.Since we'll hopefully have Hazou on Decep at pretty much all the big negotiations, I would push for Kei to get Diplo 20.
Hazou just looks really solid in general. I hope we live long enough to see these become a reality (@eaglejarl's dice pls)
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
*sigh* I only remembered we should have asked for a short circuit to the update when we encountered Arikada right after voting was closed.
@everyone: I'd really like to allow the QMs to judgement call and short circuit an update if things happen that aren't really covered by our plan. For instance start of combat when the plan doesn't include combat details.
We'd have to also agree not to complain about the QMs invoking or not-invoking this at various times. I want to let them help us by letting us recalculate when situations change or new important information comes up.
Being too pissy about when it does or does not happen means that QMs will shy away from using their judgement when it would be helpful. We can can of course later talk about how we would have preferred the choice to be made, so the QMs can update their heuristic, but please don't get angry at them for decisions you disagree with.
@eaglejarl, @Velorien: Assuming the thread agrees, would you be amenable to something like this? where you can use your judgement to stop an update early as situations change?
It would require a rule where we only get XP for the party of the plan that was actually executed.
Alternately, we could have a general action plan SOP which is assumed to be part of every plan we vote in. With a set of rules describing when we want to short circuit, when we should use the other SOPs, and the like.
@everyone: I'd really like to allow the QMs to judgement call and short circuit an update if things happen that aren't really covered by our plan. For instance start of combat when the plan doesn't include combat details.
We'd have to also agree not to complain about the QMs invoking or not-invoking this at various times. I want to let them help us by letting us recalculate when situations change or new important information comes up.
Being too pissy about when it does or does not happen means that QMs will shy away from using their judgement when it would be helpful. We can can of course later talk about how we would have preferred the choice to be made, so the QMs can update their heuristic, but please don't get angry at them for decisions you disagree with.
@eaglejarl, @Velorien: Assuming the thread agrees, would you be amenable to something like this? where you can use your judgement to stop an update early as situations change?
It would require a rule where we only get XP for the party of the plan that was actually executed.
Alternately, we could have a general action plan SOP which is assumed to be part of every plan we vote in. With a set of rules describing when we want to short circuit, when we should use the other SOPs, and the like.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Would that be a meta-SOP, a SSOP, a SOPP, a SSOPP, or a SSOPOP?
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Could I sig this?
My initial reaction is to vote nay, I want this arc wrapped and am not sure what additional contributions I would even make.
- Location
- Europe
I wasn't really looking to blame you for not listening to us, it was more me lamenting about how we didn't come up with better stuff for you to write about.
The planning we made was very general in my opinion, it gave some frames and goals but there were no clever ideas or interesting gambits from our part. I wasn't really expecting that to be it for this mission. (Or maybe my mind is running away from me before the update is even here?)
I know, you need to write an update from the stuff that's already there, and in this case we did plan some preliminary stuff so of course you are going to work out of that.
I don't really feel that strongly about it. You have obviously gone through a lot of effort for this update and I don't want to undercut that with my whining.
Just go with the stuff that you have written, if we wanted something different or more specific we should've prepared better. It's not like we can magically summon any more resources for the fight than we have already acquired.
Like I said, we'll do better next time.
PS: Then again, I would hate myself if it turns out someone died and we didn't take the chance to do something about combat. Anyone else have an opinion about this?