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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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eaglejarl said:
You are technically in charge but in practice Cancurunchu is the leader.
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That reinforces my want of "sanity-checking" with him. Technically our potentially dumb decision is a command. Cancurunchu having to overrule it on the basis of Common Sense (as the Dogs understand it) is worse for group cohesion than just taking him aside and asking him is.
roobee said:
that wouldn't have to be hazou's characterizations. we could spin it that hazou agreed to kill 12 leopard murderers, but never agreed to and is frankly shocked that cannai would be fine with him killing leopard non-murderers. although there is conflict with that and cannai's instructions to ambush. how does hazou expect to determine guilt before an ambush? and if he doesn't, why didn't he speak up when cannai mentioned it? we could say hazou didn't think of it at the time, which is why he is retreating to dog and talking to cannai again. not thinking of the details of something is different characterization from knowingly accepting a mission he knew he wouldn't want to do.
edit: i mean that doesn't work for these particular prisoners who tried to kill us. but it could work for hazou explaining to cannai why he retreated and is talking to cannai again instead of ambushing some leopard camps
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It was very clear that Cannai's mission is to kill 12 random adult Leopards. Hazō being "shocked" would characterize him as either an idiot or someone who pretends to be an idiot or someone who is deeply in denial. Why would we want that?
 
Rafin said:
It was very clear that Cannai's mission is to kill 12 random adult Leopards. Hazō being "shocked" would characterize him as either an idiot or someone who pretends to be an idiot or someone who is deeply in denial. Why would we want that?
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it was not clear that cannai would be someone so evil. maybe evil is too strong a word, but i don't know what else to use right now off the top of my head to describe being willing to kill random people who have nothing to do with you to preserve the people you care about.
 
eaglejarl said:
Your fellow dogs might also have something to say about you sparing a leopard that killed who-knows-how-many-Dogs
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This is the reason that I am hopeful about even the original leading plan (which Stompy plans to rewrite). Hazopilot can be overruled during the sanity check with his veteran Jonin, and it should only cost us standing within the raid group.

Hazopilot was instructed to sanity check both the "oathbreaking" and the "crippling" part of the plan. Now, it would be way too spoon-intensive to start asking how HazoPilot would interpret various plan line items. But I wonder if we could put in something like "degree of forcefulness" to indicate which line items HazoPilot should insist on & argue for, vs which ones are ok to cede quietly.

For the purposes of the raid, I would want to indicate that Hazo generally should defer to the Jonin dog except for in the case that decisions are being made by bloodlust or adrenaline. But that's kind of hard to program into HazoPilot who has social skills in the low 20s iirc.
 
roobee said:
it was not clear that cannai would be someone so evil. maybe evil is too strong a word, but i don't know what else to use right now off the top of my head to describe being willing to kill random people who have nothing to do with you to preserve the people you care about.
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Please reread the chapter where we got the mission. What does it seem to you that Cannai is asking Hazō to do? Please explain with quotes if necessary.

Also, compare and contrast with what Cannai plans to do if twelve murders (he himself called them murders) aren't enough to sway the Leopard Boss. Keep in mind that this section has been edited from the original to be toned down. Cannai's character should be judged by this toned down version since it is now canon. On the evil scale, does Cannai's plan B seem more or less evil than killing twelve innocent adults?
 
eaglejarl said:
Hey! That is so not true. You were not 9/9.

...you were 15/15. :>

(Yes, yes, I know that you meant 'of the dogs.')
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We genuinely do have a problem, don't we. Well, the first step is acknowledging it.

The second is figuring out how to fix it. Hmm.

I'm thinking we raise TH to 40, buy Namikaze Minato's Revolutionary Soon-to-be-World-Changing Uber-Sealing Style (Note to Self: Come Back and Name This Later), and then try to develop some Alertness-boosting Minatoseal? Might need to dip into Biosealing for that one, and combine the discipline with Minatosealing, but I think it should be doable. (I think we can fit MedKnow and MedNin into our pyramid with a bit of work, right?)
 
eaglejarl said:
If it was in the plan it should have been prepped. If it wasn't, that's our mistake and we'll fix it. What was your idea?
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Don't worry about it - reasons made sense both times. Idea was PLTRs. First iteration was Chapter 662, where the plan included 18 separate prep days and the QMs (entirely reasonably) established the policy that we shouldn't expect more than 10-12 prep days an update, and PLTRs were among the days that got cut. Second iteration was Chapter 664, where according to @Paperclipped via @Sir Stompy, since the plan didn't specify an amount of prep for Force Claws and CATEARS, Hazopilot decided (again entirely reasonably) to no-prep them, so only three prep days will have got done and PLTRs are not likely to be one of those three (nor would I argue that they should be).
Sir Stompy said:
Kyreneryk said:
As in, he no-prep'd Force Claws and only did one day of sealing research? That wasn't the plan; is this a Discord QM decision or just deduction from how long the chapter was? (Given how busy the QMs have been lately, I submit that it's possible that EJ just forgot to add in the SSA rest days to the chapter length.)
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Technically I forgot to specify a length of prep time, and so it was within Hazoupilot's remit to choose to no-prep Force Claws and CATEARS. I confirmed with Paper on Discord today that's how it went down.

I'm not terribly upset, but it means we'll have to vote in at most 3 more for next cycle.
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Rafin said:
What does it seem to you that Cannai is asking Hazō to do? Please explain with quotes if necessary.
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eaglejarl said:
A punitive raid
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eaglejarl said:
Yesterday they killed six dogs in this area, so we shall kill twelve in response.
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These words give the feeling of vengeance. Vengeance is killing those who wronged you, not random people.

Cannai's original plan B was so completely insane in terms of practicality it could be treated as him speaking in anger. Angry words but that after his advisors calm him down he could recant. Words are different from a mission of action being assigned right now. With the toned down plan B, it's harder to interpret as an emotional outburst. The tone down plan B is still more evil than killing 12 innocents yes.

eaglejarl said:
Cross the border, murder twelve of them, urinate on the corpses, and leave them to rot in the sun. Do not kill cubs. Leave one parent alive if you can do so without losing your own people.
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However here Cannai says to just cross the border and kill Leopards. He even specifically gives criteria to not kill cubs, who are innocent. And yet does not make innocence itself a separate criteria for sparing. This shows Cannai's intent was just random Leopards.

So I was wrong.
 
Sir Stompy said:
  • Sanity check this with Cancurunchu.
    • Run our list of questions by him, are we missing anything?
    • Hazou thinks that offering to spare whichever Leopard gives more information might get better results.
      • However, they weren't on their way to attack our pack. So if Cancurunchu isn't inclined to spare one. There's no need.
      • We'd need to prevent them from warning anyone that we're coming for them specifically.
  • Interrogate the wounded Leopards, most Intimidating Dog takes point.
    • Separate them, then if Cancurunchu approved, exploit their self-interest -- promise to let whoever gives the most information live.
      • What was your target in Dog?
      • How many Leopards are in the area?
      • How far away are they?
      • How many jounin/chunin/genin equivalent warriors are there?
        • Any ranged fighters?
      • Are there any settlements/encampments nearby?
    • Let whoever cooperates more live, but cripple them so they can't warn anyone.
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Updated interrogation section in light of EJ's revelations this morning.
 
roobee said:
These words give the feeling of vengeance. Vengeance is killing those who wronged you, not random people.
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For what the perspective is worth, my reading is that Cannai is considering this a dispute between the clans of Dog and Leopard as single political entities, not as groups of individuals. Leopard has wronged Dog, and Dog must respond to Leopard in such a way as to deter nearby political entities from thinking they can also wrong Dog. Children being spared if at all possible is probably a specific taboo rather than a general principle only to kill specific Leopards/other Clan members that already killed Dogs/your own clan members.
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
Also, didn't we recently have Hazou earnestly and honestly denounce Jashin and all he stands for?
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Huh. For some reason, I thought that speech was simply a forced move and did not reflect him abandoning Jashism. For example, has Hazou stopped wearing his Jashin pendant?

edit: there also was a poll about whether Hazou truly believed in Jashin, and much salt about that question. IIRC, Hazou as a result believed in Jashin but only as a partner of sort, mercenarily.
 
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Kiba said:
Was the question if the world is round had ever been answered?
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No/not yet.
Hazou got the string measures from Gaku, but the players weren't told the lengths.

Maybe if we vote "do maths at the string measures and then summerize the conclusions to kagome while onscreen" into a plan we'll get the answer? IDK

Nebulus said:
For example, has Hazou stopped wearing his Jashin pendant?
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Never started.

Inferno Vulpix said:
I kinda feel like this should go above the interrogation scene, just in case the QMs roll some dice that say "oh yeah someone was close enough to come attack you before you even finish the interrogation".
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Sir Stompy said:
Sure, sounds good.
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I'd like to go a bit further.
Interrogation takes time, and I don't wanna get jumped. Once we do that, why not start enacting Option B while the dogs start the interrogation?
It beats the other uses for Hazou's time(sitting with his thumb up his ass), and protects the troop from ambush while giving us a head start on digging in if we chose that plan. Once the interrogation is over, if we decide not to dig in, we can just explode our traps and move on.

Sir Stompy said:
Plan C - Go hunting for a Leopard camp based on the intel we got, tunnel underneath it from a safe distance away to maintain surprise. Then pop out and start killing.
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Practical question: why/how tunnelling? I thought our only group tunnelling jutsu was ES, which is slow and chakra-hungry?

Sir Stompy said:
Follow Cancurunchu's lead and go with whatever he thinks is best.
  • But, unless there are very few Leopards nearby, push for Plan C, or plan A if we don't have a good target.
    • Staying static against an unknown force seems incredibly risky.
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I think this undervalues Hazou's Dragon/Essie-killer traps that can only be staticly deployed. Our team can dig in harder than almost any other team on either path.
But fine, not a big deal.


@Zampano everything I said to Stompy goes to you to.
 
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Left-Hand Mutant said:
Practical question: why/how tunnelling? I thought our only group tunnelling jutsu was ES, which is slow and chakra-hungry?
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Looks like @OrthernLight ninja'd me but yes, we have TE.

As to your other point, exploding seals tends to cause sealing failures. So I'd really rather not. I'd risk it in a life-or-death combat situation but not for this. I don't feel the risk of being jumped immediately is worth it.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

How much chakra does Hazou have and how much chakra does the most junior Dog cost?

Hazou boosted for 5 or 6 for one round and cast PEA at Effect 2 or 3.

eaglejarl said:
  • Chakra boost: 5
  • Supplemental: hold for Substitution
  • Supplemental: hold for Substitution
  • Standard: Pangolin Earth Armor, Effect 2

Hazō gains the following effects from PEA: Armor:2, non-ablative. Physique + 6, making it 43. Athletics - 3, making it 37.
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Hazou is capable of boosting for 6 (due to ACE) and casting PEA at Effect 3.

However it is better for us if he boosted for 5 and cast PEA at Effect 2, since that means we have more chakra to spend now. The penalty to Ath and the bonus to Phys in the update correspond to PEA at Effect 3.

If Hazou cast it at Effect 3 and boosted for 6 he spent 79+30 = 109 chakra and has 206 remaining.

If he cast PEA at Effect 2 and boosted for 5 he spent 43+25 = 68 chakra and has 243 remaining.

Any combination of the above also makes sense and he would naturally regenerate a bit before next combat starts. So it's basically QM fiat how much he has left.

Just thought I'd throw this out there.
 
Left-Hand Mutant said:
Can I get a @faflec on this? I feel like I've heard it both ways, and have gotten pretty confused on what is or isn't likely to cause a correctly infused seal to fail.
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I don't think we've specifically blown up infused seals with an explosive tag, but Daizen attacking us with his Storm Whisps caused failures.

Kagome went on a rant once about how destroying storage seals occasionally causes failures, I think there are a few more examples.

We can also just ask the QMs

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

How likely is it in Hazou's estimation that destroying an infused seal via explosive - say a 5SB, causes a sealing failure? In a range from "literally impossible" to "very unlikely but it's been known to happen" to "Kagome screeching for 2 straight hours about how he failed as a sensei"
 
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PONWOG: Destruction of any seal has the potential to cause a life-threatening sealing failure. That being said, some seal designs are extremely safe, to the point where Kagome's stupid boxes work by using a thrown weapon to destroy the (storage) seal holding the stupid box, even though that risks a sealing failure. Kagome was also willing to use explosive seals to destroy other (potentially-damaged) explosive seals in front of Honoka, as a teaching moment.
 
faflec said:
PONWOG: Destruction of any seal has the potential to cause a life-threatening sealing failure. That being said, some seal designs are extremely safe, to the point where Kagome's stupid boxes work by using a thrown weapon to destroy the (storage) seal holding the stupid box, even though that risks a sealing failure. Kagome was also willing to use explosive seals to destroy other (potentially-damaged) explosive seals in front of Honoka, as a teaching moment.
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Is this your own PONWOG or someone else's? If it's your own, respect.
 
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