Not really viable, we're primarily a melee fighter. Our Goo Bombs are useful but are unreliable in case of friendly fire.
Yeah, but making one SC means we're down to like 62 chakra apiece, enough for 2 rounds. Not enough for many combats, sadly.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Yes.
We...can fight like this, but not having more than a round of boost means that if we don't win, or at least gain a decisive advantage, in a round...we're toast. Even risking so much is a concern.
- Location
- Yes.
Are Earth Clones smart enough to know when to use seals appropriately? Substitution targets, we've done before, but I distinctly recall us needing to use Shadow Clones to activate a rune because the Earth Clone was too dumb to know that it should activate the rune once the hourglass went down. Or maybe that was my imagination, I dunno.
EDIT: Nope, I was a dumbass. It's the opposite: we need to do ridiculously convoluted systems to get the Earth Clone to do its job:
Point remains the same, though, complex orders are hard.
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redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Hazo is not a ranged or a melee combatant. He is a sealmaster. His combat skills are dependent on his seal loadout, and his ability to activate and deploy the correct seals in the correct place at the correct time. His combat skills such as they are exist to further that purpose by keeping him alive and able to react appropriately.
I don't know about the chakra values being debated here, but yes a shadow clone (or more) with access to seals seems more beneficial than Hazo having more chakra so he can boost longer. I expect Hazo having created shadow clones in advance of the combat and given them some seals to use should be a standard assumption unless specified otherwise, honestly. SOP should be 'if expecting combat, prepare to deploy as many useful seals as quickly as possible' which means SCs.
I don't know about the chakra values being debated here, but yes a shadow clone (or more) with access to seals seems more beneficial than Hazo having more chakra so he can boost longer. I expect Hazo having created shadow clones in advance of the combat and given them some seals to use should be a standard assumption unless specified otherwise, honestly. SOP should be 'if expecting combat, prepare to deploy as many useful seals as quickly as possible' which means SCs.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Hazou does not have enough chakra or stats to whistle up some Shadow Clones mid-combat and have this be competitive, since the Shadow Clones (and probably Hazou unless this was planned out in advance) need to expend action economy to arm themselves IIRC.
You really can't do without a few Substitutions + a few rounds of boost worth of chakra if you're in an on-level combat scenario that is remotely challenging. You need to be able to dodge 1-2 rounds of bullshit in an emergency, or you might end up nursing a broken arm for 2 months or pushing daisies.
I think this misunderstands both our seal mechanics, and the mechanics of unstagnations.
Unstagnations don't work through SC. You need to be present in your real body to get them done.
We don't have any seals that are all that useful in combat like this. Hazou can regularly hit harder than a Goo Bomb using his genin-level Taijutsu (43 Tai + 9 (RRB) + 6 (Macerator) + 6 (Boost) = 64)
None of our other seals are better in direct combat than this. If your expectations are different, change your expectations.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Hazou used Earth Clones, back when we were crossing Cat, iirc. They're not smart enough to follow instructions that are too complex, but we told them to shout (something akin to) 'we come in peace' while unsealing fresh meat from seals.
- Location
- Yes.
Whoop, I was a dumb.
Point remains the same, though, complex orders are hard and I'm not sure "Earth Clones will use X seal if attacked" is an order they're good enough to follow if they have a bunch of different seals they can use. Maybe one seal in a very straightforward manner?
Their duration is also 10 minutes. So unless you know you're about to be attacked you don't want to cast them ahead of time.
- Location
- Yes.
Oh yes, also that.
Add in the tag from our Sonics(+5) and a little bit of Jashin, and it's starting to look like we have a chance. Depends on if the veteran leopard has good buffs(which it probably does).
Shame we didn't wait to see about a combination stunt for Force Blades, if they give a numeric bonus.
I'm hoping that(if they can't run away) Hazoupilot can open combat by Gooing/Implosioning most of the chunin, so the other dogs can back him up against the Jounin.
Well, we'll see how this goes!
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Give them a MARs chain? They activate one seal, it activates others?
Also yes
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Will we gain control of Sasha's character sheet during this voting cycle, or will we gain control of it when voting resumes?
Does anyone recall what level you have to raise a jutsu in order to make jutsu scrolls?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
It's never come up.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Welp. Rip.
We couldn't have afforded it anyway. Maybe it will combo with Roki? We can only hope.
Unfortunately, veteran chunin will dodge a TN 60 attack, and tieing up their genin isn't likely to be worth much, maybe at least. If they're grouped up it's certainly worth a try.
Summons can still cast their jutsu while Goo'd so it's not as much of an issue as you might naively expect.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I feel simultaneous confusion about this (how are we getting enough detail about Sasha's capabilities and training methods without being there in-person?) and concern about this (Hazou regularly communicating with Sasha risks dragging her into our incredibly dangerous scheme, adding risk not only to the mission but also to Sasha herself). Has it been confirmed that we're getting Sasha's character sheet at this point in time?
We've had plans for Sasha's build for, I actually don't know how long. Is it so much of a stretch to say that we left instructions to her on how to train, how long to do things, and what to learn? Maybe the day to day learning we wouldn't have much control over, but we had a pretty definitive plan for what her graduation 1000 XP would go to.
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Pinging also @eaglejarl @Velorien
A couple questions about the RAD that I've seen floating around that I'm not sure have answers yet.
1) Does Hazou think he can nest the Domes? Set say 10 domes with slightly different diameters up so that they nest inside each other. Leading to
2) Do the RADs have a thickness? If so how thick are they? For maximal nesting purposes
3) The domes are fixed in orientation to the Earth's surface. Does that mean if placed on a skytower the dome would form in midair?
4) Could we then turn one of the RADs upside down and fully enclose the skytower? Or does the dome form independent of the orientation of the rune?
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Understood. When I mentioned standard operating procedure, I was referring to how Hazo embarked on this mission not only expecting combat, but actively seeking it out. He should have had time to summon clones and arm them with tags in advance. This fight should not be coming as a surprise to him, he should be prepared. At least in general if not the specifics.
I recognize that it might get a little bit tricky if the mission is expected to last beyond a certain length, and Hazo cannot rely on scouting or otherwise having advance notice to create useful clones in time. I am only saying that when Hazo has the choice, having clones should be preferable to not having clones. If in this case, Hazo for whatever reason did not have that choice, then I'll agree that summoning clones mid-combat is fairly risky and we do not have the Chakra to make it worthwhile.
at no point did I suggest that Hazo wouldn't be there personally? True, I'd prefer for his prime body to take a safer role away from the frontlines, but even then he'd obviously be participating in combat by deploying his seals, just as much as Kei participates when throwing Kunai. If you're saying that using SC at all completely invalidates the encounter, then that's kinda fucked up and I suggest an edit to the rules.
can Hazo's taijutsu hit harder than 3 hazos worth of seals? Does the full selection of our entire sealing library deployed from multiple hands over multiple rounds really contribute less to a group fight than a single chunin in close combat? (note, if the answer is yes, then I have no choice but to throw up my hands, cede the argument to you, and then heavily question our build choices.)
I understand that Hazo being unable to boost for very long leaves him vulnerable if he is targeted specifically (which is admittedly likely), but having clones to substitute with and who might be targeted before him in the first place makes up for that, I would think. Hazo plus dogs already outnumber the leopards, if we assign one dog to each leopard we have a couple spare dogs and all the hazos we can muster to tip the balance of those fights. Individual leopards are stronger, but having the number advantage hopefully means we can tactically stall some combats and focus on ending others to free up and redeploy those resources.
Plus, you know, skywalkers. another great tactical advantage that is best used at a distance. Not an instant win button of course, but the only sensible strategy of stacking as many advantages as we can for every combat means throwing this one away is questionable.
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If Hazou isn't rolling his combat stats, he isn't going to unstagnate, we ran into this exact situation when he almost died to the Squirrel Nin. He drew some fire, and nearly died but didn't actually kill anything himself, and so he didn't unstagnate. Although it helped somewhat. Hazou throwing Goo Bombs at his enemies doesn't do anything to help him unstagnate, he's not using his combat stats. Dodging helps, but it's not nearly as good as attacking himself.
SCs maybe contribute 1/10th or less of what they would if they were Prime. So you can basically just round them off to zero in terms of contributing to the unstag.
Probably not, depending on the exact layout of our enemies. That said, it's close, and since the goal here is to unstagnate, it's counterproductive.
If we make 2 SCs like you suggest, we will have ~38 CP and can boost for 1 round and not use Sub at all. Or use partial boost and keep one Sub. It's an incredibly vulnerable position for Hazou and his clones to be in. As soon as his clones are popped he'll be in a bad situation. He's likely to be pretty far down in the turn order, so his clones likely wouldn't even get to act before they're targeted and destroyed.
You can't Substitute to dodge an attack without a roll. So if Prime is attacked and misses his dodge, he'll get hit regardless of Sub.
Your suggestion about breaking the Dogs and Leopards into 1-on-1 duels is simply not how the mechanics work. There is no mechanism to prevent Leopards from attacking other Dogs on their turns. It is generally advantageous in FtD to gang up on the strongest combatants to kill them quickly, that is likely to happen here.
We aren't wearing skywalkers, and could still be targeted by ranged ninjutsu if we were. We would be limited in that case to dodging and throwing Goo Bombs, not a terrible use of our time but not the optimal one.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
While I don't have a comprehensive memory of Hazou's sealkit, my general understanding is that many of his better seals for this type of combat aren't especially suited to being used more than once (activating four banshees at once isn't going to do much more than one banshee. And heck, if we wanted to activate four banshees, we could just have four banshees in the MARS stack). In group combat, Hazou is best applied as a force multiplier and worst applied as a direct combatant.
That said, given that his seals are going off without much investment on his part, the question still does remain of whether Hazou's better off fighting as one self or as SC. You mention that Hazou getting specifically targeted is likely, and I'm going to double down on that: Hazou very much got specifically targeted when we fought those Hyenas, and the fact that Hazou couldn't defend himself adequately cost lives as other Dogs sacrificed themselves to save us. Hazou needs the chakra on-hand to be dodging at max level, boosting and substitutions and all, and Shadow Clone is incredibly chakra-hungry. Creating one SC leaves each Hazou with (IIRC) 70 chakra, two SCs leaves each Hazou with 38 chakra, and it just gets worse from there. I can't recall off the top of my head how much chakra boost costs, but I feel like even 70 chakra only fuels Hazou for one round, leaving him a sitting duck for the rest of the fight.
While all of this is based on my fairly shaky memories of Hazou's loadouts and such, I kinda really do think that Hazou's best contribution to this group fight (in decreasing order of priority) is going to be 1) deploy all your group-fight seals, 2) stay alive and don't get stuck in positions where other Dogs will have to die to cover for you, and 3) engage foes in melee when possible. Casting SC most likely messes with priority 2, so even though it helps priority 3 I don't feel like it's that good a strategy.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Hazou + 2 Shadow Clones means each of them has (back of the envelope) 40ish chakra leftover. (1 Shadow Clone leaves 70 something chakra FWIW.) That is not a good amount to have if you need to chakra boost or pop any defensive abilities.
I get that the "I can use Shadow Clone to summon forth action economy, hahaha!" button is an appealing one to press (I think this strategy gets suggested every so often) but it's one that tends to have a lot of problems when it comes down to the actual implementation. For one, all of our cool seals are still shackled to Hazou's lame, barely-chuunin butt, so while they augment his capabilities, they only do it so far. For another, it consumes an absolutely ridiculous amount of chakra without leaving much leftover. Being able to chakra boost for a few rounds (either so the clones can do offensive stuff or so that they can just survive round to round) and still have some chakra to spare for defensive abilities like Substitution or escapes like Hiding Like a Mole is pretty essential. Walking into a combat with multiple Hazous all very low on chakra is also not so great, since while we have some initiative buffs, it's still the case that Hazou has pretty garbage Alertness, so none of those Hazou SC are guaranteed to really survive long enough to do anything if they suddenly find themselves in a combat situation.
You really, really do not want to be in combat in this system without a decent amount of chakra to spare. It's just a bad time overall.