Could someone sum up the current argument please? I can't exactly figure out what everyone is saying.

Here is an update on the prioritization recommendations plan that I have been working on. The Major changes include shifting Queen Lizzy to work on a Doppelganger body for CJ, focusing on Cybersecurity in a major way, and sending Tobe to investigate Alonso Hawk's death.
CJ is not a doppelganger AI. She is simply an advanced chatbot with administrative abilities. It is completely self-defeating to do that. We have much much much more valuable actions to take. Tobe, while he is not the worst, is not suited towards dealing with Hawk's death. It likely has a DC larger than 120, or at least close to it. It's just begging for a critfail.
 
CJ is not a doppelganger AI. She is simply an advanced chatbot with administrative abilities. It is completely self-defeating to do that. We have much much much more valuable actions to take. Tobe, while he is not the worst, is not suited towards dealing with Hawk's death. It likely has a DC larger than 120, or at least close to it. It's just begging for a critfail.
"She is simply an advanced chatbot"

Them's fighting words.

Tobe has the largest effective Intrigue score among all of our hero units except for Agent Russ, and people were worried that it may be a "time limited" thing. Agent Russ will be busy that turn with the Blot.
 
"She is simply an advanced chatbot"

Them's fighting words.

Tobe has the largest effective Intrigue score among all of our hero units except for Agent Russ, and people were worried that it may be a "time limited" thing. Agent Russ will be busy that turn with the Blot.
That does not change the fact that CJ simply is an advanced chatbot with administrative capabilities.

Cleaver rolled a 72 for him to 'figure out' that Bonkers was the murderer of Hawk. It is going to be much harder for Tobe to find the real perpetrator. Bonkers was rolling with a bonus of 56 where Tobe will be rolling with a bonus of 50. I would much rather wait a turn so Russ will be available. Hell, it might have an ??? DC, just like what Cleaver's DC was.
 
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That does not change the fact that CJ simply is an advanced chatbot with administrative capabilities.
If that were the case, then there would be no point in having CJ take a look at DoofOS's security.

Cleaver rolled a 72 for him to 'figure out' that Bonkers was the murderer of Hawk. It is going to be much harder for Tobe to find the real perpetrator. Bonkers was rolling with a bonus of 56 where Tobe will be rolling with a bonus of 48. I would much rather wait a turn so Russ will be available. Hell, it might have an ??? DC, just like what Cleaver's DC was.
That depends on how what the action that was being rolled was presented, and the action we get to roll to investigate. Until we get confirmation on the roll, there isn't much point in arguing about it.

Beyond that, that seems like playing into Doom's hand, given that Doom should be starting to get familiar with Agent Russ.

What he is not familiar with is Ninja with ninja magic.
 
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If that were the case, then there would be no point in having CJ take a look at DoofOS's security.

That depends on how what the action that was being rolled was presented, and the action we get to roll to investigate. Until we get confirmation on the roll, there isn't much point in arguing about it.

Beyond that, that seems like playing into Doom's hand, given that Doom should be starting to get familiar with Agent Russ.

What he is not familiar with is Ninja with ninja magic.
It is the case, and I know because I've overestimated CJ before.

Look, I don't think I have to explain why we'll have to put more effort into discovering that Doom killed Hawk than what Bonkers did, right? He rolled a modified 128 and still believed that Bonkers was behind it. Tobe does not have experience with this sort of field and he certainly doesn't have Russ's experience with Toons. Tobe also does not have Russ's stats. Russ is pretty damn good at keeping secrets and we don't even know how much Doom knows about Russ. So it is reasonable to assume that it isn't playing into Doom's hands to send Russ to investigate Mar/Apr. However, given the nature of the next turn, it is playing in Doom's hands to hand him an Intrigue critical failure.

Discord said:
C-Moon: At present, CJ is basically a glorified chatbot with a quirky theme and some admin capabilities.
 
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Look, I don't think I have to explain why we'll have to put more effort into discovering that Doom killed Hawk than what Bonkers did, right? He rolled a 128 and still believed that Bonkers was behind it.
Do we consider Bonkers one of Doom's heroes, though? Presentation, presentation, presentation.

It is the case, and I know because I've overestimated CJ before.
This text should be relevant.
"Well… you succeeded. After multiple sleepless nights supplemented by gallons of espresso, you managed to code a fully-functioning AI to perform all your managerial functions. You're honestly not sure how you managed that- looking over half the code seems like gibberish, and you're afraid that if you go poking around everything will collapse. It's very unlikely you'll repeat this feat again, at least until you understand a lot more about AI."

CJ is an unshackled AI.

Edit: I don't care that C-Moon has stated that CJ "is just an advanced chatbot", chatbots are inherently shackled AI.
 
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Do we consider Bonkers one of Doom's heroes, though? Presentation, presentation, presentation.

This text should be relevant.
What the fuck are you even saying here? Are you suggesting that Bonkers, a toon noted for not getting sidetracked and a survivor of Toontown, worked with Doom to frame Bonkers? If you are, that's an even better reason to avoid having Tobe investigate Hawk given that Bonkers rolled a modified one hundred and twenty eight on it! Disregarding my annoyance at your lack of clarity, to give you context on why exactly Russ is the superior choice, allow me to explain the stats. When Chief Cleaver investigated Hawk's death, he was rolling with a bonus of +28+24+4. In total, that is 56. Russ, if he was rolling on his own without Loyalty or King stats modifying his roll, would roll with +38+5+10. That adds up to fifty three. Russ's dice modifier is just three lower than everything Cleaver had available to him. Mind you, Russ isn't working on his own. Russ is rolling with the backing of DEI. That is a total dice modifier of seventy five. With XP, that is eighty five.

If the option disappears, then so be it. But sending Tobe on this is just asking for a critfail, given the probabil-inator.

To provide clarification you presumably need, C-Moon is the Discord name of MiH. I was paraprhasing him when I said CJ is advanced chatbot with administrative capabilities. Hell, given that, I probably overestimated her.
The QM said:
C-Moon: At present, CJ is basically a glorified chatbot with a quirky theme and some admin capabilities.
I've kept quiet before, but this is getting annoying. Could you stop spaghetti posting?
 
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Edit: I don't care that C-Moon has stated that CJ "is just an advanced chatbot", chatbots are inherently shackled AI.
No they aren't? MiH was telling us the stage in development CJ is in. CJ is much, much, much less advanced than a Doppel-AI and certainly isn't designed for dealing with Doppel-AI bodies.

Just to be clear, you do understand that C-Moon is Made in Heaven's discord username, right?
 
Didn't we discuss having the first doppelganger be of Wendy because she would be willing to be profiled and once activated would give her the ability to do her kid shows and do science? Plus her traits might kick in to give it a boost.
 
Yo. MiH wanted me to chime in real quick. CJ has room to grow because she's an unshackled AI but we would not say she has what you'd call a three-dimensional personality. Her job is administrating and spitting out silly semi-procedural responses to external stimuli. Hence the "chat bot" comment.

I know people are excited about their new Vocaloid child but she isn't quite there yet. Norm has some ways to go but CJ is lagging way behind in the sapience department.
 
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Two words.

Fusion Power.
I don't think this is a good comparison. Fusion power was specifically noted as being required to have be taken multiple times. Anyways, to comment on the whole argument:

I doubt we will be able to take Malfishmertz's Occult training course twice, if it is an option. Despite that, I still do not think it is a good idea to take it Jan/Feb (if it is available). If the DC is similar to the Boot Camp, we'd critfail 42% or so of the time and a critfail with magic has the potential of going really wrong.

I acknowledge that Doof's Occult score is holding us back a significant amount, but a critfail would hurt us a lot more than just not having a critsuccess. Besides, I'd like to get those cybersecurity firewalls fixed, and PA is the only way I can see of doing that successfully. The cyberbugs could become a huge problem if we let them lie with a crit.

Now, we can always hope that King Candy whoever it is rolls a 1, but that won't exactly do much. :p
 
I doubt we will be able to take Malfishmertz's Occult training course twice, if it is an option. Despite that, I still do not think it is a good idea to take it Jan/Feb (if it is available). If the DC is similar to the Boot Camp, we'd critfail 42% or so of the time and a critfail with magic has the potential of going really wrong.
Agreed. While I know it's not the same quest, the spinoff saw Doof critfail summoning Celena the Shy, and as a result lost his Occult actions for the next two turns while his soul recovers from the magical backlash. I'd rather not see something similar happen here.
 
Agreed. While I know it's not the same quest, the spinoff saw Doof critfail summoning Celena the Shy, and as a result lost his Occult actions for the next two turns while his soul recovers from the magical backlash. I'd rather not see something similar happen here.
That's... A weirdly meta argument to use? Don't mistake me, the spinoff runs a tight ship, and I can almost believe @mangawriter77 actually has backstage insight into the Doofquest system from what we've seen of their work, but the truth is that they're making it up as they go along.
 
That's... A weirdly meta argument to use? Don't mistake me, the spinoff runs a tight ship, and I can almost believe @mangawriter77 actually has insight into the system, from what we've seen of their work, but the truth is that they're making it up as they go along.
What?! Noooo, no, no, I would never do something so reckless! What gave you that idea? 😅 :whistle:
 
Yo. MiH wanted me to chime in real quick. CJ has room to grow because she's an unshackled AI but we would not say she has what you'd call a three-dimensional personality. Her job is administrating and spitting out silly semi-procedural responses to external stimuli. Hence the "chat bot" comment.

I know people are excited about their new Vocaloid child but she isn't quite there yet. Norm has some ways to go but CJ is lagging way behind in the sapience department.

So, CJ right now is essentially Mass Effects EDI just after the Collector Raid on the Normandy as an administrator instead of a pilot in terms of core personality/programming?
 
That's... A weirdly meta argument to use? Don't mistake me, the spinoff runs a tight ship, and I can almost believe @mangawriter77 actually has backstage insight into the Doofquest system from what we've seen of their work, but the truth is that they're making it up as they go along.
I meant more for it as an example of what an occult critfail might look like, and not as an argument that "if we critfail magical training, X WILL happen."
 
I meant more for it as an example of what an occult critfail might look like, and not as an argument that "if we critfail magical training, X WILL happen."
I mean, sure. But literally anything might happen. We just don't know. In fact, the consequence we got from the spin-off would be literally irrelevant here, since we have the Hero units to take Occult actions for us.
 
Been a bit out of the discussion.

What do we have in terms of interludes left? Ave Maria, which was the Xanatos reveal of Gargoyles; The First Day of Christmas, for the DEI party and Marco related stuff... Anything else?
 
Yo. MiH wanted me to chime in real quick. CJ has room to grow because she's an unshackled AI but we would not say she has what you'd call a three-dimensional personality. Her job is administrating and spitting out silly semi-procedural responses to external stimuli. Hence the "chat bot" comment.

I know people are excited about their new Vocaloid child but she isn't quite there yet. Norm has some ways to go but CJ is lagging way behind in the sapience department.

To put my own 2 cents into this. I tried to reflect my vision of CJ here. As a computer program with natural language processing that makes it seem humanish. I can actually see her as more Turning-test capable than Norm, but that is because the turning test is a terrible measure of sapience. It's all about the ability to mimic humans, and her diplomacy upgrade means she's pretty good at this, but she isn't really complex, a lot of her ability to appear so is due to the way humans anthropomorphize things if given the chance.

For example, whenever she has an error due to the module being one she doesn't have (anything not stewardship or diplomacy) she says it would "be inappropriate for a princess such as myself to comment upon". That's what the code processes as the correct response, but as a person, we can take the form of 'younger princess' and go "Ah yes, children often respond to things they don't want/can't want by claiming that they shouldn't or don't care about it. Clearly she is purposely devaluing it." In essence, doing the work of making her look 'human' ourselves.

Or take this part.
Error. Insufficient modules for processing of full technological outcomes. Analysis removed.

Error, outcomes include subject welfare data.

Error. Insufficient information on pet-subject interaction. Adaptation. Outcome-based approach. Further investigation recommended.

Scholar Jumba has successfully preformed basic dragon necromancy. In addition to offering numerous expanded options which it would be inappropriate for a princess to comment upon, it has also resulted in 'pets'. These pets have shown to offer significant subject welfare increases, though I cannot yet understand why.

Father, I would like to explore such welfare increases myself. Perhaps through the acquisition of a 'pet'.

We can see through the code that she looks at pet analysis through a utilitarian lens, it has shown statistical increases in it, but she isn't advanced enough to understand it and needs more data. She is honest about this in her report. However, we, as humans, tend to look at this and go "ah yes, children want pets. They often do so by arguing it is a good thing, like teaching responsibility. Clearly, she is acting like a human daughter of Doof." Despite the fact that she isn't, hear reasoning differs completely, and much of the similarities that are seen are because her natural language processing means she seems human and our brains fill in the blanks.

Of course, I am not a quest assistant or the QM, so anything any of them says takes precedence.
 
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