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DoofQuest- a Disney Villains Victorious CK2-Style Quest

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The Froggy Ninja said:
I do understand, though I personally disagree in this instance.



The two concerns Janus brings up are A: The AI going out of control/being smart enough to rebel and B: generally avoiding the philosophical mire of if sapient programs have rights.

I'm conflating them because Tron Programs are artificial intelligences, regardless of whether Doof or anyone else knows about them. And designing a system to prevent programs from anthropomorphizing would require testing them for anthropomorphization. If the test is effective, it would lead to the discovery that almost all programs are anthropomorphic and possessing of free will.

Because it gives insight into their characters and values, and attempting the action would be very useful even if not in the way he's expecting. Attempting to produce a AI neutering system or taking a stance against such a course of action would still be firing the gun, even if the end result is coming to the realization that sapient programs are omnipresent.

Eh, McGucket may be right but doing that would probably still result in philosophical conundrums, and having to wipe all DEI technology periodically would not only likely result in annoying drops in performance, but would also only work on our tech meaning everyone else making videogames or vaguely anthropomorphizable programs are still spawning unchecked AI at random.

I cannot as I don't know what that term means.

All of this is kind of moot anyway since there's no way we're going to crush Wendy's dreams like that, or abandon the raw utility of friendly digital life forms.
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And why are you a better source than Ludivine? Ludivine would have access to everything we Questers have and more. She'd even have access to all the nitty gritty stuff.

Yes, and Sinatron is the kind of thing that Lee wants to prevent. He is the kind of smart that Janus Lee wants to stop from happening. What you mentioned are the reasons he wants to stop Sinatron-level AI. I do not understand why you repeated his reasons for wanting blocks on artificial intelligence.

Programs are not artificial intelligences. There is absolutely no reason for an investigation into stopping AI from becoming to come across programs if for no other reason than there is no way to detect programs. For instance, Wendy didn't detect programs when she was experimenting with Normbots. Do you have any actual proof for the claim that we will discover Tron programs if we investigate how to shut down sapience?

Prove it. Prove that the creation of artificial intelligence is so easy. We have WoG that it is not. We have in-universe history that makes this position utterly and completely incongruent with the reality. The in-universe history shows it is difficult.

EVERYTHING about artificial intelligence shows that it is damned hard to create artificial intelligences.

The stuff you mentioned that supposedly make the action worth something are totally incongruent with the Quest as it has been run by MiH. He has never given us an action where in success we just got jack shit. He's never given us a success where the rewards don't match the action we set out taking either.

It will cause philosophical conundrums in the same way that vegans do. Ie, just be an fringe section of society that most people only know of by meme of the annoying loud minority.

It's what you have been doing for this entire argument. It is discouraged.

Edit: Lightened the tone.
 
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MrHobbit said:
And why are you a better source than Ludivine? Ludivine would have access to everything we Questers have and more. She'd even have access to all the nitty gritty stuff.

Yes, and Sinatron is the kind of thing that Lee wants to prevent. He is the kind of smart that Janus Lee wants to stop from happening. What you mentioned are the reasons he wants to stop Sinatron-level AI. I do not understand why you repeated his reasons for wanting blocks on artificial intelligence.

Programs are not artificial intelligences. There is absolutely no reason for an investigation into stopping AI from becoming to come across programs if for no other reason than there is no way to detect programs. For instance, Wendy didn't detect programs when she was experimenting with Normbots. Do you have any actual proof for the claim that we will discover Tron programs if we investigate how to shut down sapience?

Prove it. Prove that the creation of artificial intelligence is so easy. We have WoG that it is not. We have in-universe history that makes this position utterly and completely incongruent with the reality.

EVERYTHING about artificial intelligence shows that it is damned hard to create artificial intelligences.

It will cause philosophical conundrums in the same way that vegans do. Ie, just be an fringe section of society that most people only know of by meme of the annoying loud minority.

It's what you have been doing for this entire argument. It is discouraged.
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Not everything. There are secrets within Doofquest and data points within the broader Disney canon that she's not aware of.

Because those reasons also apply to Programs and video game characters. They're sapient which brings about the ethical quandaries and an 8-bit race car driver is currently ravaging the internet with his swarms of tyrranids because he was smart enough to feel resentment for being replaced and rebel.

How are you defining artificial intelligences? Because I'm defining them as digital programs that possess and express the general traits of rationality, decision making, self awareness and self determination. As for why we'd discover them, developing an anti-AI system would necessitate implementing an idea, having it run for a while and then checking it for signs of developing self awareness and free will to determine if the blocker worked. Whether or not that would reveal programs I can't say because the entire concept of video game characters or toys or Santa Claus being real without arcade owners who come in early and see Zangief passed out at Tappers, security guards who fast forward through the night tapes to check for anything in toy stores where barbies give tours and have mansion raves or every single parent whose children get gifts or coal that they didn't buy knowing they exist requires such a massive suspension of disbelief that trying to figure out what in-universe investigations would reveal them is an exercise in futility.

My proof that creating artificial intelligence is easy is that it's literally happening all the time completely by accident. Defining artificial intelligence as digital entities possessing enough self awareness and capacity to act against their intended nature if motivated by emotional means and/or present a question of whether they deserve rights, then every arcade on the planet and most personal computers are chock full of them, just accounting for the more active videogame characters, rather than the adaptable, but seemingly lacking in initiative, general programs.

I meant it would cause philosophical conundrums from the likes of Wendy, people that are in the know and whose opinion we care about. And I'd compare the concept closer to WH40k's Servators and Cherubim than whether animal products are okay to eat.

Weird. I find block replies significantly harder to parse, but if it's the official stance of the site administration.
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
[SNIP]
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Of course she doesn't know about, say, Bill. But for the matter of artificial intelligences she knows more than enough to be an authoritative source on the matter.

And we can't do anything about programs without crashing human civilization, which is not the case with artificial intelligences.

Programs like Tron and artificial intelligences like Sinatron are clearly different. To distinguish them takes only a bit of thought. Programs aren't meant to think or make decisions. They simply act. Typically they aren't on software that have the processing power for sapience. Artificial intelligences are created with minds by their designers. They are also use computers that seemingly do have the processing power for sapience. In any case, Arathnorn has mentioned that while they are related, there is a difference.

Given that you do not have proof for investigations revealing programs, and given that there is evidence against the notion, such as the fact that the SHIVA laser is the way to do it, the honest thing to do would be to drop the claim.

The only reason way you can say that creating artificial intelligences is easy is if you ignore what everyone says about artificial intelligence in universe, which, really isn't a good image. But it's what you have been doing for this entire argument. I've said this before, but if we believed what you were saying our entire Normbot army would have been sapient before Turn 2 could even conclude. It didn't. And that hasn't changed in nearly three years in-quest time.

Arathorn said:
IC, you're not clear on the difference on account of the fact that you don't know Programs exist. OOC, there is a difference but the two are also related.
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While i ain't the QM's, so i might be entirely wrong I do think I found a way to seperate the differences between the 2. It's mostly about 2 things, Scale and Physicality.

Here is a good way to know the difference between an AI and a Program/Sprite. An AI is a machine, that can interact with the physical world to perform task. It is a being who has Data as a major component, even able to survive solely by transferring data, but is, at the end of the day, a physical entity. Sinatron isn't going to be changing the Grid, simply navigating it beyond the physical limits of the system of whatever computer he's in would probably be like trying to go a Hedgemaze with the Hedges being 1 Foot Apart.

Programs and Sprites meanwhile made entirely of Data, and moreover, are not supposed to operate machinery or really anything by themselves. They can travel through the Grid and Networks, even possibly over things such as the internet as King Candy does, to accomplish their goals. But they can't really control a large body or network by themselves like an AI can. It would be like a single person trying to sail a massive ship. They also can't really interact with the Physical world without using the SHIVA laser to be ported to it, just the digital one.
 
MrHobbit said:
And why are you a better source than Ludivine? Ludivine would have access to everything we Questers have and more. She'd even have access to all the nitty gritty stuff.
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On subjects like this, Doof has just as much access as Ludivine, and is roughly as gifted a scientist...

...But we never hesitate to assume that Doof is making a big mistake about whether something is practical or advisable. He often finds ways to do seemingly impossible things anyway because that's his whole schtick, but we don't assume that Learning 38-40 translates as "is infallible within a field where new breakthroughs have recently been made."

If Doof were infallible in matters of science, we wouldn't have bad inator rolls, or we'd have a hell of a lot less of them.

Now, to be fair, Doof's fallibility is a major plot point of his character. But then, so is Ludivine's. Remember that she has that 1/6 chance of doing completely the wrong action in completely the wrong field because she's a scatterbrain. Are you sure she's incapable of making a serious error of judgment involving new information? She's a Disney cartoon absent-minded supergenius professor, for crying out loud!

Prove it. Prove that the creation of artificial intelligence is so easy. We have WoG that it is not. We have in-universe history that makes this position utterly and completely incongruent with the reality.
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Do you have any idea how arrogant you are coming across about how correct you are?

Your opinion plus your interpretation of evidence does not automatically equate to "another person who doesn't agree with you, and who cites different evidence and interprets it differently, is 'utterly and completely incongruent with reality.' "

Your opinion is not, in and of itself, objective fact.

Would you be so eager and quick to claim that one of your own opinions was 'utterly and completely incongruent with reality' if someone presented you with with evidence that disproved it? Would you use those exact (brutally confrontational and insulting) words?

No?

Then I suggest, sir, that you moderate your tone for courtesy's sake.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
[SNIP]
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Of course Ludivine can be wrong, but we have no reason to believe that she is. That is working backwards- assuming that it is impossible to curtail the development of AI and then working the circumstances around that notion.

Which is a better idea? To start with the assumption that Ludivine knows what she is talking about then change that opinion if we find evidence. Or is it a better idea to come up with an idea then assume that Ludivine is wrong because it doesn't match the theory?

In any case, bad inator rolls, in part, come from Doof not caring about the consequences of his actions. Not him not understanding one aspect of science or the other.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, I was arguing against a claim. Even so I provided evidence to prove my point.

I would say that yes, I have made claims that have been incongruent with reality and have often been too prideful to back down on them, doubling down when pressed.

Edit: @Simon_Jester as an example, I was rather hysterical about the Coffee Java vote way back when.
Edit 2: Lightened the tone.
Edit 3: You are right that Froggy doesn't deserve the language I'd use on myself- @The Froggy Ninja I apologize for that.
 
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Ludivine is pretty sure that they can figure out some way to make sure that your normbots dont end up sentient. She thinks.

Programs clearly don't follow the rules we've established for how AI develops. Not that you know that IC.

You do not have all the information.

Both of you are making good points.

Please stop attacking each other.
 
Subject change:

We should chat with Wiley the next opportunity we have to chat with a hero unit.

Wiley is one of our councilors, one of our most loyal and longest working units, and a fellow (prior) nemesis haver. That's why a chat I think could be really good, Doof and Wiley could form a strong connection potentially. And he was explicitly called out for not having a connection yet in the Deep Into Your Mind interlude. Plus he potentially has a stat increase coming his way with Tech E being on the docket soon.

After Wiley, we should follow up with the rest of the council members that we haven't chatted with before yet: Janus, Malfishmirtz, Ludivine, and Mirage. Not necessarily in that order.
 
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Mirage was next on the schedule just because of the Mirage turn and how important she is to our business.

After that, yes, Wile E is a excellent choice.
 
Arathnorn said:
Programs clearly don't follow the rules we've established for how AI develops. Not that you know that IC.
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Interesting. I had figured they operated the same and it was mostly the anthropomorphism we apply to everything we interact with rubbing off over time, with Entities being more active and human like due to being visually represented and somewhat characterized in the eyes of players.
 
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Industries
  • Informational
    • Industries

    The megacorps of the Gridlocked setting do not simply create money out of thin air. Surprisingly, this includes DEI! Your Income per turn has been revamped to fit into the new Industries mechanic. There are 19 industries, in each of which you and your rivals have a rating, as listed below.

    Industrial Ratings:
    -2: Reviled: Key players are investing a great deal in keeping you out of this field.
    -1 Harmed: Through some misfortune, your presence in this field is actively hampered.
    0: Nonexistent: You have no significant investments into this area.
    1: Marginal: You have begun to lay down the basic links necessary to enter this field.
    2: Established: You have firmly established yourself as a player in this market, albeit a small one.
    3: Stable: You have created a functional, stable hold in this field.
    4: Thriving: Your interest in this industry is flourishing and well regarded
    5: Dominant: You are one of the most influential organizations in this entire field.
    6: Overbearing: You are the most powerful player in this arena.
    7: Monopolistic: You have near complete control over this area.

    Once one faction has become Overbearing, no other faction can reach beyond Rank 4 (Thriving). Once a faction has reached Monopolistic, no other faction can reach beyond Rank 3 (Stable).

    For every negative rank you have in an industry, you take a -10 penalty to all actions related to that area, as your reputation or other issues hinder progress. However, for every positive rank you have in an industry, you gain +1 Income per year. Reaching Monopolistic control instead gives +3. This doesn't mean that you'll be instantly rich, as costs for everything are increasing to balance things out. You're going to have an actual tax rate now!

    Your Rivals also have their own Industries that they control. Right now, you only have a vague idea of the major players in a handful of industries. There are a small number of Market Research actions you can undertake to see who exactly has just how much control in each industry. Corporations are likely to work to improve their own standings, or lower yours if they think you stand in their way! If you have an Overbearing ranking in a given industry, potential rivals have a -10 to all rolls made in that industry. If you have Monopolistic control, that amount increases to -30. The same penalties are applied to you.

    The government does not like Monopolistic factions, and investment in keeping them out of your hair may be necessary if you want to keep your hard-earned unfair advantage.

    Improving Industries

    To improve your standing in a given industry, you must take an action with that [Industry] increasing your standing among its rewards. You must complete these actions a number of times equal to half of your current rank, rounded up. Once you do so, you tier up to the next rank. For example, if your genetics is tier 3, you must take 2 actions that increase [Genetics] standing in order to rank up to tier 4.

    If an Overbearing or Monopolistic rank rival exists, they will need to be… dealt with, before you can advance.

    List of Industries

    Advanced Robotics: Modern Robotics devices, including industrial, military, commercial and personal robots. Most use the 'Funtelligence' system, though equivalents do exist. Recent advances in sentient robots also fall under this field.
    • Established [+2] (High potential for growth due to cracking sentient AI)
    Aerospace: Traveling to the one place left that hasn't yet been corrupted by capitalism, using capitalism. Xanatos has been actively moving into this industry.
    • Nonexistent (A Singular Botched Rocket Launch) [+0]
    Chemical Products / Material Processing: Acquisition and processing of raw materials including mining, cutting lumber, making sheet metal, chemical solvents, and a lot of the other 'heavy industry' needed to fuel other industries.
    • Nonexistent
    Computers / Electronics: Complex technology used to run electronics, particularly computer systems. ENCOM is an overwhelmingly dominant factor in this field.
    • Marginal (DaedalOS/DoofOS) [+1]
    Crime: The sleazy underbelly of the world, ranging in anything from smuggling to full-on supervillainy. A lot of major players have dipped their toes into this pool, whether they'll admit it or not.
    • Nonexistent
    "Pharmaceuticals": The production and distribution of illicit and mind-altering substances often prohibited by the DEA. In recent years they have grown to include intelligence-boosting nootropics, temporary superpower granters, and deep purple crystals called 'Primal'.
    • Nonexistent
    Food / Agriculture: Production, processing, and distribution of food.
    • Stable (Cricket Protein/Dino Meat) [+3] (1/2 investments to next level)
    Genetics: Manipulation of the genetic code of humans, plants, and animals alike, for designer crops and super soldiers. Oh and like, curing diseases and whatever.
    • Established (Lee Industries, Mendel-Gruman) [+2]
    Healthcare: Provision of health clinics, actual pharmaceuticals, and those other things people need to live.
    • Nonexistent
    Insurance / Legal: Law firms, insurance firms, and various other industries involved in complex, legalistic jargon and the abuse thereof.
    • Stable, losing money (Insuricare) [+3]
    Investing: Using money to make money via other people's hard work.
    • Nonexistent
    Mass Media / Performance Arts: Television, Movies, Social Media, News, Video Games, Theater, and anything else that claims to entertain or inform at a mass scale.
    • Mass Media / Performance Arts: Established (Disney, Danville Performing Arts Center) [+2]
    Motor Vehicles / Transportation: Sale of vehicles and the transport of resources and people across land routes.
    • Motor Vehicles / Transportation: Marginal (Lee Industries) [+1]
    National Defense: The sale of armaments, support equipment, tanks, vehicles, weaponry, robotics, and other supplies to the US government or international actors.
    • National Defense: Reviled [-2]
    Petrochemicals: Natural Gas, Oil, Plastic, and other byproducts of the three.
    • Petrochemicals: Marginal (Dinoco) [+1]
    Restaurants: Locations selling ready-made food intended to be eaten on the spot or taken away. Distinct from retail locations such as supermarkets.
    • Restaurants: Stable (Doc Hoppers, technically Bueno Nacho) [+3]
    Retail / Wholesaling: Direct sales to consumers in stores, covering everything from prepackaged food to appliances, clothing, or furniture. If you can find it in a supermarket or a department store, it's this. Unless it's already something else.
    • Retail / Wholesaling: Marginal (Doofenshmirtz Evil Coffee Machines) [+1]
    Telecoms: Internet, Cable television, phone lines, and the rest of our communications infrastructure.
    • Telecoms: Nonexistent
    Transport (Air): Air-based international shipping; Shere Khan is market leader.
    • Transport (Air): Nonexistent
    Widgets / Miscellaneous: Stuff. You know. Weird stuff. Doodads. Whatsits. All the springs and sprockets you've never heard of until it breaks in your washing machine and you have to order one direct from the manufacturer. DEI, apparently, is the undisputed leader in this industry. Turns out you invented like seven new varieties of screw alone that… someone or other managed to pull out of the wreckage of your inators. And a new type of heating coil, and biodegradable PVC piping. And… wow this is a long list.
    • Widgets / Miscellaneous: Overbearing (DEI) [This is what keeps your company running] [+6]

    Total Corporate Income Per Year: 25

    Check the Income sheet for full Income information and current Funds.
     
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  • Informational
    • Captain Flint said:
    So our main source of income is being a parts manufacturer? Interesting. I assumed it would be genetics, what with the disonaurs and stuff.
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    DEI was a megacorp before this quest began, and your foray into genetics didn't start until well after. The dinosaurs are an incredible accomplishment, but it's more like comparing present-day Tesla to Ford. It's certainly an impressive development in the field, and you're pushing the cutting edge of development, but you're not dominating the industry or making a ton of money.

    Additionally, we changed the number for robotics. While you did discover AI, you haven't implemented it yet and aren't making any profits off of it.

    MrHobbit said:
    Is this supposed to be in the threadmarks category rather than the informational category?
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    We'll shift it over later but wanted to make sure everyone sees this, as well as some of the other significant updates.
     
    bigking321 said:
    Mirage was next on the schedule just because of the Mirage turn and how important she is to our business.

    After that, yes, Wile E is a excellent choice.
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    Considering the most recent threadmark, Wiley is better.

    We make most of our money from widgets. Wiley has vast experience with ACME, especially with expanding it.

    We can use ACME to grow our widget dominance into even more profit.
     
    @Made in Heaven
    If people think of additional industries not mentioned, will you add them to the list? Presumably they'd be things DEI has no presence in, but they'd still exist.

    Captain Flint said:
    So our main source of income is being a parts manufacturer? Interesting. I assumed it would be genetics, what with the disonaurs and stuff.
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    You gotta remember that DEI had to be keeping afloat somehow at game start. Back when it was just us, Norm, and LOVEMUFFIN. And we didn't have a genetics specialization back then, that was never Doof's thing.

    Something was keeping DEI in business.

    The part where Doof can casually invent seven new impossible things before breakfast just to make his real impossible thing possible... Probably had a lot to do with that.

    woweed said:
    We do own Acme, leading purveyors of random odds and ends.
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    Yeah, our takeover of ACME probably helped us get the market on widgets close to cornered.

    Nystical said:
    Considering the most recent threadmark, Wiley is better.

    We make most of our money from widgets. Wiley has vast experience with ACME, especially with expanding it.

    We can use ACME to grow our widget dominance into even more profit.
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    The only place to go from here is "monopoly," and I suspect that going to "monopoly" is easier said than done.

    Also, Mirage impacts our position in many industries by being our general purpose right hand woman. That's important.
     
    With our high growth potential for Advanced Robotics, I think we should really try to up our focus on actions related to Bakaemono and Funtelligence, them being the major competitors with AI and Robotics.

    Genetics is also good as a backup, as we have learning heroes that excel in genetics and genetics related advances are applicable in multiple industries. (Entertainment through Doofrassic Park, Food through Dino Steaks, the actual Genetics industry with curing diseases and such).

    Simon_Jester said:
    The only place to go from here is "monopoly,
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    No, expanding to foreign markets is also an option.
     
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    Simon_Jester said:
    @Made in Heaven
    If people think of additional industries not mentioned, will you add them to the list? Presumably they'd be things DEI has no presence in, but they'd still exist.
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    Most likely not. We started with a list of every major industry in the US GDP, added in weird DVV-punk stuff, and then pruned from there to get rid of smaller or irrelevant things. Unless we've forgotten something vitally important, like that Drakken actually made his fortune in actuarial services.
     
    Arathnorn said:
    Most likely not. We started with a list of every major industry in the US GDP, added in weird DVV-punk stuff, and then pruned from there to get rid of smaller or irrelevant things. Unless we've forgotten something vitally important, like that Drakken actually made his fortune in actuarial services.
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    Actuarial services would probably be under Finance.
     
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