The prime appeal of runecrafting IMO is that it potentially upends the strategic picture. Making defense on the scale of cities actually easier than offense.

From the uplift perspective, it's the best option even though in day to day mechanical fights that are fun to write it kinda is either useless or an overwhelming advantage.
 
Last edited:
Whenever I see people looking at non-canon or questionably canon interludes and having reactions which fall under the umbrella of 'I am confused/upset that this does not appear to align with gameplay mechanics' I too feel somewhat confused and upset.

Is it not obvious to everyone else that this sort of update is about QM fun/ease of writing as opposed to the maintenance of an internally-consistent world? (Am I wrong in thinking that this is the primary driver?) My expectation is that generating tightly-simulated combat requires a lot of thought and energy, and that the QMs aren't putting together jutsu/character sheets/etc. for non-canon updates. These are - to my read - explicitly 'what if' chapters which aren't under obligation to integrate nicely or at all into canon.

Am I nuts?
 
Whenever I see people looking at non-canon or questionably canon interludes and having reactions which fall under the umbrella of 'I am confused/upset that this does not appear to align with gameplay mechanics' I too feel somewhat confused and upset.

Is it not obvious to everyone else that this sort of update is about QM fun/ease of writing as opposed to the maintenance of an internally-consistent world? (Am I wrong in thinking that this is the primary driver?) My expectation is that generating tightly-simulated combat requires a lot of thought and energy, and that the QMs aren't putting together jutsu/character sheets/etc. for non-canon updates. These are - to my read - explicitly 'what if' chapters which aren't under obligation to integrate nicely or at all into canon.

Am I nuts?
I like that MfD does such a good job normally of maintaining an internally consistent world so these low-effort fluff combats are especially jarring to me. I know that combat does not work this way on a fundamental level. So it being written that way is jarring.

If it was a story in MfD -- like the fake Zabuza vs Shikigami fight. Or one of Jiriaya's questionably canon war stories. Then I wouldn't mind. But it being presented as aspirational for the players is something I don't like.
 
I like that MfD does such a good job normally of maintaining an internally consistent world so these low-effort fluff combats are especially jarring to me. I know that combat does not work this way on a fundamental level. So it being written that way is jarring.

If it was a story in MfD -- like the fake Zabuza vs Shikigami fight. Or one of Jiriaya's questionably canon war stories. Then I wouldn't mind. But it being presented as aspirational for the players is something I don't like.
I don't see this as aspirational for the players, I guess. This fundamentally isn't attainable, and even if it was I'm not sure it's the direction I'd want to go. It's one cool thing, sure, but there are plenty of cool things out there and we're not obligated to chase them all. If/when we get Jiraiya back, he's probably going to have all sorts of advice and thoughts about what we could do and how we should do it, but I am heavily in favour of ignoring a bunch of that advice and if he tries to make something about it reminding him that while both of us got killed one of us managed to do something about it and it wasn't him, would he like some pointers from us?

That said, I really appreciate the response - it helps to know that part of my reaction is that I have in large part chosen to ignore the mechanics so there's less dissonance. Thank you!
 
Last edited:
Or he didn't make Lightning part of his main buff trio. He probably gave us SotS because he stole it with Jiriaya.
Honestly, at the expected level of XP Orochimaru has, I wouldn't be surprised if he has all the elemental buff combos (the two-buff ones I mean). If you have all 5 elements already, so you presumably have journeyman and probably master stunt in many of the elements, since it can be any jutsu in the element, that gives you a lot of flexibility. And if your gimmick is surviving, having a decent buff that gives you an elemental advantage against your attacker is helpful. Having a second buff, that counters the counter to your main elemental buff? A solid defense strategy. Pairing them all with individual bio seals or whatever would be prohibitively expensive. But 1k XP to be able to pair any two elements together without issue? Or 500xp for all the non-adjacent ones? I wouldn't be shocked.

Though now that the buff cap rule is in effect, I wonder how much XP the average jonin has to buff stacking that no longer makes sense? I suppose that is one area where ninjutsu specs do better than sealing specs, at least. I wonder if medical techniques are treated as a tree, like elemental techniques, or individual, like neutral chakra? Might matter for Noburi, since "medical ninjutsu plus water ninjutsu" is most of his suite, and he's still developing.
 
That said, I really appreciate the response - it helps to know that part of my reaction is that I have in large part chosen to ignore the mechanics so there's less dissonance. Thank you!
Shrimply abandon all other hobbies and educate yourself on the mechanics. Then you can be as pedantic and fussy about this stuff as the median mechanics enjoyer.
Honestly, at the expected level of XP Orochimaru has, I wouldn't be surprised if he has all the elemental buff combos
It's literally 1000 XP for that. IDK....

Maybe he has his top bioseal+each element for which he has a top-tier buff? We know he has a lot of buff stunts and depreciated buff stunts. So perhaps...
 
Honestly, at the expected level of XP Orochimaru has, I wouldn't be surprised if he has all the elemental buff combos (the two-buff ones I mean).
A lot of NPC's having more or less XP than they should can probably be explained by just a gallery of useless (to their build) jutsu and stunts along with having no idea how to pyramid. In other words the real MIN was the spreadsheets we made along the way.
 
So, if this isn't a central example of where you'd like to see us making a different decision, can you give a concrete situation (potentially hypothetical) where we have made (or would make) a particular decision but should instead act otherwise given our new purview as QMs?
A lot of the immediately salient stuff that comes to mind is stuff that we're voting on right now, in this moment of frozen time where the simulation has explicitly taken a back seat until time resumes. I'll try to think of one example from the past and one from the future.

The big example in the past where I wish there had been an intervention is the research trip as a whole. I've talked about this before, of course, but the big reason why the research trip turned out to be a problem is because it put us in a situation where we had no choice but to avoid adventure and do research for months on end. I remember seeing people being hyped about the idea of going missing and doing adventures again, but instead it quickly became apparent that we couldn't actually justify spending the time on adventures when our time was already spoken for trying to win the race.

I've said before that us players generally want to do fun storylines just like you do. We like research and think it's cool, but we also think adventuring around and getting into fights is fun and cool too. If we had the choice, we'd spend our time doing a mix of those two things, the optimal power-seeking ratio of activities in one hand but our intrinsic desire for fun in the other hand. We went on the Squirrel Scroll hunt not because it was super important to us to obtain it, but because it sounded like a cool and meaningful adventure. Thus I contend that the main thing which leads to unfun scenarios is the phrase "we can't afford to do that". We said it over and over on the research trip, we can't afford to "waste time" on the chakra metal crabs if it predictably won't pay off before the big showtime, etc. etc.

It's not clear to me right now that we knew before going out on the research trip that we would have so little freedom of choice, but if we or you had figured out that it would end up this way, it would have been to the story's benefit to try and arrange for some kind of intervention. Perhaps Naruto's persuaded to try some other strategy that doesn't constrain our options as much (like betting on FOOM and taking radical steps to produce essies strong enough to lead a new coalition against the Akatsuki), or maybe we get some credible information about having a lot of time to burn, allowing us to escape the mentality of "if we don't have our runes ready in time, we lose". Maybe Hazoupilot is given inspiration towards a particular rune effect that would make our situation much less dire, like a rune that would stop the Akatsuki's rift-opener from working and let us buy time. These are all ideas off the top of my head so they're clearly not very polished, but if we had a conversation about our options I feel like we could have arrived at some way to avoid getting caught in a time crunch without pushing things too much.

Thinking about an example from the future, though... honestly, my thoughts go to the conversation we had a little while ago about how "going around adventuring" is supposed to pay out in lore and techniques specifically through the means of attacking foreign ninja, stealing their stuff, and torturing them for information before killing them. That's apparently what the Sannin did, but it's not really something we'll be very gung-ho about given how much it runs contrary to the kind of person Hazou wants to be. This is going to be a real problem, a real fun-blocker, once we do hit the point of adventuring properly in the land of the living. There's just no way, from what we know to exist, to square the circle of getting lore and jutsu out of people without being a murderhobo.

So if I think of what might head that off, what might give us options that aren't "give in and become a murderhobo" or "Hazou isn't murderhobo enough to get rewarded for adventures", I start thinking about things like "what sort of ability would we need to get this kind of loot without murderhoboing?" or "what kind of circumstances could give us more freedom to avoid murderhoboing?" Like, for instance, if we're recognized as Leaf-nin then we obviously can't leave any survivors to our unprovoked hostile action, but what if we were able to credibly adopt an identity separate from Hazou of Leaf? Or what if we could pull them back out of the afterlife once we were done with them? Or what we came out of the afterlife with some memory-modifying jutsu that would make them forget who we were? Stuff like that.

The simulationist answer to this question is "this is a ninja deathworld, you don't actually get to have it both ways. Either sacrifice your morals or give up on becoming strong through fun ninja adventures." I think the quest would be more fun if there was some alternative made available to us. Not necessarily a silver bullet of making all the moral problems go away, but something that lets Hazou genuinely say to himself "let's go attack those ninja and steal their secrets" without feeling like he's betraying Uplift in the process. Even if it takes some doing to make work, even if we're still operating at a disadvantage compared to the murderhobos who gave us this advice, we'd do our best to make it work for the sake of producing arcs that are fun to play and cohesive with Hazou's characterization.

Speaking very generally, we're not averse to putting in work to get things done, even if we might grumble at having to spend XP on BoC or something. But there needs to be a route in the first place (and we need to know that it exists), or else we'll likely just shrug and look elsewhere, potentially passing up on a lot of fun.
 
Though now that the buff cap rule is in effect, I wonder how much XP the average jonin has to buff stacking that no longer makes sense? I suppose that is one area where ninjutsu specs do better than sealing specs, at least. I wonder if medical techniques are treated as a tree, like elemental techniques, or individual, like neutral chakra? Might matter for Noburi, since "medical ninjutsu plus water ninjutsu" is most of his suite, and he's still developing.

I'm unconvinced that there is any area in which TH specs are worse than Sealing specs except for static defenses. TH actually comes across as being leagues better than Sealing at almost everything, and this is backed up by what we can accomplish with essie sealing and what essie THers can accomplish, or even by comparing Jiraiya's sealing library to his technique library.
 
I'm unconvinced that there is any area in which TH specs are worse than Sealing specs except for static defenses. TH actually comes across as being leagues better than Sealing at almost everything, and this is backed up by what we can accomplish with essie sealing and what essie THers can accomplish, or even by comparing Jiraiya's sealing library to his technique library.

Unsure why you quoted my post, since I was talking about ninjutsu-using jonin, rather than those who were technique hackers. (All techniques in an element count if you get the combo stunt with it, whereas seals and non-elemental techniques need to have their own specific stunt. Already, our macerator stunts are being left behind.)

But I'm not sure I fully agree. Hazou already gets action economy, flight, offense/defence bonuses, etc from seals, and it doesn't count/use Chakra in a fight, which gives more flexibility/the ability to summon. I'm not saying technique hacking isn't potentially better. But we've seen sealing break out of the box too many times to that technique hacking is just better in general. Sealing let's you specialize more in specific domains. Different, but not necessarily worse. Certainly couldn't have overturned war paradigms with 20-30 levels of TH. That's my take, anyway.
 
Last edited:
Certainly couldn't have overturned way paradigms with 20-30 levels of TH.

Eh, not totally TH, but Pango Armor ninjutsu (GS and the training one) would probably become part the new standard tool kit of every ninja. That could count as an paradigm shift.

And PH isn't really bad either for genin and chunnin, 10-30 level isn't that expensive and quite a nice buff.

So who knows what we could have done with that Speed Dog ninjutsu. Maybe it could have stacked with PH or normal chakra boost?

So yeah, what I am saying is basically that we should start hacking the Akimichi chakra enhancement jutsu and PH. INFINITE CHAKRA BOOSTING.

WHO CARES ABOUT THE MEAT!? WE'RE ALREADY IN THE "TORTURE-BUT-REINCARNATION LANDS"!

PAIN IS TEMPORARY, RESPAWNS ARE INFINITE!


edit: Yes I know that chakra is going to be an even more important resource, but one can dream.
 
Last edited:
Inspired by a post by Zerovirus on discord:
Zerovirus on discord said:
RANDOM HIDDEN MOON GENIN 1: i dunno maybe he's actually a good guy? he talks a lot about civilian welfare and human rights doesn't he-
RANDOM HIDDEN MOON GENIN 2: he hangs out with orochimaru! how good of a guy can he be? they're all monsters and we're going to take them down.

Cycle of Revenge, Chapter 153: Mizushina versus the Seventh Path

"An inspiring speech, but the fact remains that they were able to defeat the entire military force of our village. What can we do about an enemy like that?"
"It won't be easy, but all of us here have the potential to become strong, maybe S-rank strong. I'll talk to you about training plans later. And we'll need to make a plan to get the advantage over them, a plan that takes their strengths and weaknesses into account. Mizushina-sensei, you have sources of intelligence that, frankly, astonish me. Will you brief us on the subject of Team Uplift?"
"They're an organization entirely of summoners."
"Implausible," said Oshīma.
"Well, it's true. I have my sources. To start with, Gōketsu Noburi is the Toad Summoner. He has huge chakra reserves 'cause of his bloodline, so he's really good at summoning, and he's a master of large-scale water techniques. His bloodline lets him take out enemies by draining their chakra, and he studied medical ninjutsu under Tsunade and Orochimaru. He's married to Gōketsu Yuno, last survivor of Isan, the Tapir Summoner. One of the deadliest axe-wielders around. I don't know much else about her, but she's a Jashinist, enough said."
"I've never heard of a tapir clan."
"You've never studied the Seventh Path, but even if you had, you might not know about them. They're very secretive - I think they helped hide Isan from the rest of the world in the first place. Anyway, they've also got Tenten, formerly Leaf's most talented weaponmistress, and the Blade Summoner."
"That's not even an animal!"
"What she uses is no ordinary summoning scroll. Hazō decided he was such a good sealmaster he'd try to replicate one, see, and instead made a rift to the Asura path that blade-monsters started coming through and killing everyone nearby, which is why you should never try that," Mizushina-sensei glared at Yaguchi, "but on his second attempt, he bound the blade monsters to a scroll - remember, he has the sage's lost sealing techniques, if anyone else tried something like this they'd get killed at best - and gave it to Tenten as a birthday present. It can also summon kunai, so she never runs out of weapons.
"Nara Kei is the Pangolin Summoner. Famous for it. She has one of the forbidden bloodlines, which gives her a preternatural ability to optimize other people's plans, but makes her unable to come up with her own. Also, she's a master of Leaf's legendary shadow clone technique, and is said to have somehow hacked it so that she can create clones with different personalities and skillsets - don't ask me how she did that or what it means, I'm not Senju Tobirama and I don't understand shadow clone.
Now, you kids never talked to the porcupines, but if you'd heard the news from the seventh path, it wouldn't surprise you that the pangolins were willing to throw in with an organization like Uplift - the pangs are conquerors through and through. What I don't understand is how Gōketsu Hazō got the dogs to accept him as a summoner. But he did, somehow, even though you'd think bribing them with seals would be good enough. The man must have S-rank charisma, he's made a pattern of convincing people to work with him who wouldn't normally consider a thing like that - both deranged S-rank madmen who you'd think would kill him as soon as look at him, and sensible people who you'd just think would know better. He's the brains of the team, by all accounts, and came up with their Uplift philosophy and their grand plan- "
"Should we not have some common ground, then? Their belief in peace, and in respect for civilians-"
"That's how he gets you! Think about it, they work with Orochimaru - the Snake Summoner, you don't doubt me on that one, eh - how good can they be?"
"He's right, Yaguchi. And even if he weren't, I have no interest in negotiating with the monsters who destroyed our village!" She turned to address Mizushina-sensei. "What grand plan is this?"
"He's rediscovered the sage's lost sealing techniques, and wants to reshape the world to make war impossible. Sounds good, sure, but do we really trust him not to screw it up somehow? Again, consider their track record!"
Yaguchi nodded, but seemed unconvinced.
"His teacher was Kagome, the Explosion Summoner-"
"Again, not an animal. And I'd heard he's the Arachnid Summoner."
"Sure, they say he's the Arachnid Summoner, but that's disinformation, if he were the Arachnid Summoner somebody'd have seen him summon a spider at some point. Whereas my informants all agree that he can create explosions from his hands without throwing a seal, and he's not from the Katsumi clan. There are lots of rumours about Kagome. They say half of the explosive tags Leaf used in the last world war had his mark on them. They say he's an immortal from ancient times who has a vendetta against the Sage of Six paths and was training Leaf's academy students in his sage-killing arts before he went missing. They say he can see the future and is immune to sealing failures. I definitely don't belive that one, though.
"Last, but not least, they also have Inoue Mari, the Heartbreaker, the Monkey Summoner - "
"Doesn't the Sarutobi clan have the monkey scroll?"
"I think she must've stolen the scroll from them after the Seventh Hokage died - with her infiltration and Genjutsu skills she could've managed it, and the Monkey King's been seen working with Uplift since then. Other than the Monkey scroll, as far as I know the old bingo book entry from when she was running assassination missions for Mist is still mostly accurate - jōnin level taijutsu and lightning techniques, but her specialty is deception and infiltration. I've heard that the way Team Uplift survived the Mist hunter-nin after the first time they committed treason is that the Heartbreaker convinced Zabuza he'd been a member of their team all along! So remember to check everyone you meet for the signs of disguise kit use - a deception-spec that good could impersonate anyone - and if you run into her, don't listen to anything she says!"
"...Thank you, Mizushina-sensei, that was most informative. Now, let's talk tactics."
 
Last edited:
as far as I know the old bingo book entry from when she was running assassination missions for Mist is still mostly accurate - jōnin level taijutsu and lightning techniques, but her specialty is deception and infiltration
Bingo Book entry: Ȇ̸̱̦̖͖̗X̷̧̙̽̐͝ͅͅP̸̡̹̺͎͇̅̏̃̊̕͝E̸̥͔̝̪̻̍͂̋͂̈́̇Ṟ̶̱̤͙́̄̒̂͘T̴̛̮̀̑̒̂̽͘ ̴͕̦͒̓͗̇̃͗͝ ̸̺̰͍͈͎̦͌̐̇̆ ̴͕̤̘̳̋̎̃̈́͑̽͜Ä̶̡̳̮̬́T̸̳̜̉̓ ̵̧̘̬̯͘ ̴̡̢̳̲̅͑̇ ̸̟̣͕̝̍̾̏͑̈́͝Ḣ̷͇͉͌̃̔̚͝͝E̷͈̊́͛̌̾̕N̷̬̤̥͐́̈ͅǴ̸̢͖̑̚̚Ȩ̷̰̦̤̜̬̐̅̉͝ͅ
You know, this is probably why canon made Talk no jutsu a thing...
We just need to put actual XP into CCnJ, the clearly superior technique
 
Last edited:
I've taken a look at the timelines involve, and the best route forward to me seems to be a rollback to Chapter 662, August 11th. This is where we discover that unchained time runes at 1.5 multiplier might be possible. We then put this research down until chapter 682, October 12th.
Leaf got the warning to bring Hazou back on September fifth, chapter 666 part 2.

It took a total of 35 days of research time to learn the force dome rune. It took one day of research to make TR 130 time rune. 9 days to make the TR140.

So, 24 days between our first time dilation and Akatsuki demanding we come back, then two weeks before it's suspicious we haven't yet. 35<39, right? That's before actually getting into the bonus time we get.

Leaf protected at 1.5x speed basically wins the setting, as Hazou can clean up all the other useful runic projects with Naruto as his personal bodyguard. This goes back to well before the bioseal, as well.

Props on that, by the way. The only mistake there was not engaging in the right game theory to dissuade oro from using the killswitch. Hazou needed to survive the first casual backhand from Oro easily to quell doubts about 'lessers' managing anything. Actually getting the bioseal was a great play. Seikyuu was my answer to that, but ah well.


Hope y'all are doing well. Sorry for causing drama last time I popped in. I hope everyone enjoys whatever comes next!

Also, musings from a distance:

I'm pretty sure Kei killed Akane. It's why she got so deleriously guilt ridden whenever the subject was brought up, and why she couldn't muster the appropriate level of anger when Hazou accused Shikamaru. He was right to accuse allies. He was just accusing the wrong one. She felt conflicted about this, betraying everyone at the table herself by not speaking up. She's entirely dependent on Hazou winning the setting to wash her sins clean.

No idea where Ami ran off to, that beautiful disaster. I really wish we tried to track her down.


Edit: Ah, I misread the rollback announcement. It's liable to only go back a few chapters. Yeah not sure how to fix this without more than a few weeks or a deus ex machina - which, hello fun ruling.

Double edit: Maybe a reverse deadmans switch from Tsunade? a chakra construct to put us in a medical stasis if we're about to die, then the quest continues with temporarily-no-chakra-coils-Hazou. Normally she doesn't bother, but Oro was seeming obviously treasonous.
 
Last edited:
Interlude (AU): Marked for Many Deaths, Part 1(?) New
Interlude (AU): Marked for Many Deaths, Part 1(?)

"Aaaaaaaaah!"

Hazō screamed as he plummeted from the celestial limits of an unknown world. Down below, approaching far too fast, a vast expanse of rusty red gradually resolved itself in his vision. On the outside edge, the edge of reality, a black circle limited the bounds of what could be perceived. Further in, three lines formed an all-too-familiar triangle. Hazō's fall would take him right to the middle, assuming he was in any shape to care about that after he landed.

Memory began to reassert itself. Hazō was dead. Damn Orochimaru. Hazō would never have been taken in by the snake's subtle deceptions if it hadn't been for all the death threats, instances of near murder, and occasional bursts of terrifying aura, coupled with hints that Hazō was a deadly threat to the world being kept alive against Orochimaru's better judgement. Hazō had long since learned from Kei that this was how deeply-traumatised ninja expressed affection.

As Hazō grew closer to the ground, hoping that he wasn't about to die again–the inventor of skywalkers dying of fall damage would be like an Inuzuka being murdered by a housecat–he began to see more detail. A long, thin line of people stretched across the space, interrupted periodically by clusters either within or off to the side, with one in particular being a crowd worthy of Nagi Island. What on earth could it–

Fwump.

The ground should not go "fwump", Hazō decided as he lay face-down in a deep depression best described as a Gōketsu Hazō-shaped vertical prism. As a master Earthshaper, he expected his inanimate terrene substrate to behave with at least a minimum of dignity. However, since he was inexplicably still in three dimensions and without a single broken bone, it would have been churlish to complain too much.

"Hey!" came a voice from above. "You in a temporary state of ectoplasmic animation down there?"

"Let's provisionally say yes," Hazō decided as he climbed up. "I assume, then, that this is the afterlife? It's a lot less… fleshed-out than I was expecting. Where are the beaches of sparkling white sand and beautiful kunoichi maidens filled with regret at dying as beautiful kunoichi maidens?"

Noburi had promised him, while noting in passing that his marriage vows with Yuno specified "till death us do part".

A different, younger Hazō chuckled as he helped him up over the lip of the mini-crater.

"We wish this was the afterlife. Or maybe we don't, considering how much this place sucks. Welcome to Purgatory, future me."

The endless rusty plain around Hazō had only two features. One was a great gate, easily the size of Leaf's–but instead of a vaguely welcoming brown wood, this one was an intimidating obsidian that seemed to sick in the sourceless light around them. Carved skulls belonging to unfamiliar species, all curved horns and long tongues, leered down at Hazō, as if mocking him for coming to the wrong address. The gate was firmly closed, and he had a sense that even a summon boss wouldn't be able to force it open.

The other feature was a queue. No, a Queue. The endless line of people stretched from the gate towards the horizon, hundreds if not thousands long, and nearly all of them bore some version of Hazō's own face.

He turned towards the Hazō who'd helped him. "What exactly is going on here?"

"This is Purgatory," the boy repeated. "Turns out that, for some insane reason, every time one of us dies, the universe generates another to press on in his place. It's almost like it was set up for us to fail and then try again. Every Hazō here died before making it as far as you did, and I'm guessing your successor will be joining us soon enough."

Hazō imagined having the next Hazō turn up on the Human Path, only to face a treacherous Orochimaru, Akatsuki coming for Leaf with AMITY backup, and possibly Mari destroying the entire world with Superchiller instructions.

"...Moving on," he said quickly, "why us? Is it a Gōketsu Hazō thing, or is this just how the cycle of life works?"

The other Hazō shrugged. "It's probably just us. One of the others did say something about an Ami Quest, but around here, I doubt a seduction spec protagonist who targets minors would make it past the first update.

"The problem we've got is that the original worldbuilding didn't include the afterlife, so there aren't any special mechanics to account for our situation. Only one Hazō's allowed to exist in the afterlife at a time, so we have to take turns going in and being processed. And each one takes forever, because what kind of sucker would willingly move on to reincarnation while there's still Uplift to accomplish?"

Hazō frowned. "So what you're saying is that you are a Hazō who died in the past, to something I then went on to survive?"

"I decided to specialise in socials," the other Hazō explained. "The alligator didn't."

Hazō winced sympathetically.

"I'm far from the worst off," the other Hazō said. "Look at that guy over there. He'll never get through the gate."

Hazō looked. The figure sitting cross-legged off to the side, seemingly meditating, also looked thirteen–but unlike the other, he was radiating power. There was something almost Dr@c0nic about the shimmering aura around him, and Hazō didn't dare look at it too closely.

"He's got the Souldrinker Bloodline Limit," the other Hazō explained. "He gains the power of the people he kills. It's the most broken thing I've ever heard of, and I've met a Hazō who got all of the Out stunts."

"If he's so powerful, how did he die?"

"Critical existence failure," the other Hazō said. "Yagura never let such a valuable ninja leave Mist in the first place.

"Anyway," he went on as Hazō took this in, "your place is at the very back of the line, but you may as well take your time. Chat with a few Hazōs you pass. No matter how you died, I bet you'll feel better about it after you hear what could have happened. Who knows, maybe you'll even find a group that shares your cause of death. The oldest is the Zabuza Unfan Club"–he pointed at a nearby cluster of people–"but lately, they've been increasingly eclipsed by the Akatsuki Association over there."

"I see," Hazō said. "And that vast army on the horizon?"

"The Keiko Collective," the other Hazō said with a shiver. "Turns out there are a lot of different ways to die by Keiko."

Hazō shivered right back, and hastened away.
 
Me too, buddy. Me too.
Hazō screamed as he plummeted from the celestial limits of an unknown world. Down below, approaching far too fast, a vast expanse of rusty red gradually resolved itself in his vision. On the outside edge, the edge of reality, a black circle limited the bounds of what could be perceived. Further in, three lines formed an all-too-familiar triangle. Hazō's fall would take him right to the middle, assuming he was in any shape to care about that after he landed.
More Jashin stuff?
Memory began to reassert itself. Hazō was dead. Damn Orochimaru. Hazō would never have been taken in by the snake's subtle deceptions if it hadn't been for all the death threats, instances of near murder, and occasional bursts of terrifying aura, coupled with hints that Hazō was a deadly threat to the world being kept alive against Orochimaru's better judgement.
Ah yeah, living with Kei will do that.
Hazō had long since learned from Kei that this was how deeply-traumatised ninja expressed affection.
Pfft lmao, I wonder how Kei would feel being the one we chose to use to model Oro
As Hazō grew closer to the ground, hoping that he wasn't about to die again–the inventor of skywalkers dying of fall damage would be like an Inuzuka being murdered by a housecat–he began to see more detail. A long, thin line of people stretched across the space, interrupted periodically by clusters either within or off to the side, with one in particular being a crowd worthy of Nagi Island. What on earth could it–

Fwump.
Fwump feels like an afterlife sound
The ground should not go "fwump", Hazō decided as he lay face-down in a deep depression best described as a Gōketsu Hazō-shaped vertical prism. As a master Earthshaper, he expected his inanimate terrene substrate to behave with at least a minimum of dignity. However, since he was inexplicably still in three dimensions and without a single broken bone, it would have been churlish to complain too much.
No, but the afterlife should.
"Hey!" came a voice from above. "You in a temporary state of ectoplasmic animation down there?"
Aren't we all?
"Let's provisionally say yes," Hazō decided as he climbed up. "I assume, then, that this is the afterlife? It's a lot less… fleshed-out than I was expecting. Where are the beaches of sparkling white sand and beautiful kunoichi maidens filled with regret at dying as beautiful kunoichi maidens?"

Noburi had promised him, while noting in passing that his marriage vows with Yuno specified "till death us do part".

A different, younger Hazō chuckled as he helped him up over the lip of the mini-crater.

"We wish this was the afterlife. Or maybe we don't, considering how much this place sucks. Welcome to Purgatory, future me."

The endless rusty plain around Hazō had only two features. One was a great gate, easily the size of Leaf's–but instead of a vaguely welcoming brown wood, this one was an intimidating obsidian that seemed to sick in the sourceless light around them. Carved skulls belonging to unfamiliar species, all curved horns and long tongues, leered down at Hazō, as if mocking him for coming to the wrong address. The gate was firmly closed, and he had a sense that even a summon boss wouldn't be able to force it open.

The other feature was a queue. No, a Queue. The endless line of people stretched from the gate towards the horizon, hundreds if not thousands long, and nearly all of them bore some version of Hazō's own face.

He turned towards the Hazō who'd helped him. "What exactly is going on here?"
So, it's all the dead Hazou's from quantum suicide right? Also, the sound effects are correct at least.
"This is Purgatory," the boy repeated. "Turns out that, for some insane reason, every time one of us dies, the universe generates another to press on in his place. It's almost like it was set up for us to fail and then try again. Every Hazō here died before making it as far as you did, and I'm guessing your successor will be joining us soon enough."
Roguelike MfD Roguelike MfD
Hazō imagined having the next Hazō turn up on the Human Path, only to face a treacherous Orochimaru, Akatsuki coming for Leaf with AMITY backup, and possibly Mari destroying the entire world with Superchiller instructions.
Fun place to start a run!
"...Moving on," he said quickly, "why us? Is it a Gōketsu Hazō thing, or is this just how the cycle of life works?"

The other Hazō shrugged. "It's probably just us. One of the others did say something about an Ami Quest, but around here, I doubt a seduction spec protagonist who targets minors would make it past the first update.
This is an astonishingly meta-aware Hazou. Did this one also have the frozen skein somehow?
"The problem we've got is that the original worldbuilding didn't include the afterlife, so there aren't any special mechanics to account for our situation. Only one Hazō's allowed to exist in the afterlife at a time, so we have to take turns going in and being processed. And each one takes forever, because what kind of sucker would willingly move on to reincarnation while there's still Uplift to accomplish?"
Depends, does he know more able Hazou's will get a turn after him?
Hazō frowned. "So what you're saying is that you are a Hazō who died in the past, to something I then went on to survive?"

"I decided to specialise in socials," the other Hazō explained. "The alligator didn't."
Hmmmm just socials?
Hazō winced sympathetically.

"I'm far from the worst off," the other Hazō said. "Look at that guy over there. He'll never get through the gate."

Hazō looked. The figure sitting cross-legged off to the side, seemingly meditating, also looked thirteen–but unlike the other, he was radiating power. There was something almost Dr@c0nic about the shimmering aura around him, and Hazō didn't dare look at it too closely.
The soul-eater bloodline, right? I wonder if we could take it this time... Maybe get a jashin-rebirth as his life aspect? Have the super OP bloodline with the restriction that if we go outside our domain of netting more lives we lose it
"He's got the Souldrinker Bloodline Limit," the other Hazō explained. "He gains the power of the people he kills. It's the most broken thing I've ever heard of, and I've met a Hazō who got all of the Out stunts."
Ah, souldrinker. My bad.
"If he's so powerful, how did he die?"

"Critical existence failure," the other Hazō said. "Yagura never let such a valuable ninja leave Mist in the first place.
Interesting that he's the only critical existence failure, however.
"Anyway," he went on as Hazō took this in, "your place is at the very back of the line, but you may as well take your time. Chat with a few Hazōs you pass. No matter how you died, I bet you'll feel better about it after you hear what could have happened. Who knows, maybe you'll even find a group that shares your cause of death. The oldest is the Zabuza Unfan Club"–he pointed at a nearby cluster of people–"but lately, they've been increasingly eclipsed by the Akatsuki Association over there."

"I see," Hazō said. "And that vast army on the horizon?"

"The Keiko Collective," the other Hazō said with a shiver. "Turns out there are a lot of different ways to die by Keiko."

Hazō shivered right back, and hastened away.
Ah, I thought those'd be the brain aneurysm Hazou's. Any source of stress could potentially trigger one, and this is all possible dead Hazou's
 
"Hey!" came a voice from above. "You in a temporary state of ectoplasmic animation down there?"
"…Maybe?"
"Good answer." Hazō could hear the other Iron Nerve holder grin, which was testament to how clear communication can be if you simply put in the work to establish a clear typology of conversational patterns like a reasonable person.
"'Yeah' would mean you hadn't died hard enough and needed another go-splat. 'No' would mean you had enough energy to be flippant, meaning you hadn't died hard enough and needed another Orochimasplode."
 
Last edited:
  1. Marked for Death should be a fun and exciting story and everything else, including the simulation, should serve that goal or at least not interfere with it
  2. The overall difficulty of the game should be turned down, reducing narrative downsides from strong opposition, particular choices, or bad luck. When negative consequences happen, they should be reduced in magnitude (e.g. making plotlines where failure doesn't necessarily equal death)
  3. We QMs should do more narrative-level steering towards interesting arcs, cool power-ups, Forbidden Lore, and so on. The players should be able to disengage from plotlines they don't want to interact with
  4. Simulation should still be strong at the tactical level (e.g. combat is handled mechanically without the numbers being fudged) but we should lean more narrative as we go higher in scope to make sure challenges can be overcome, while keeping things consistent and plausible (e.g. invent reasons for Akatsuki not to pursue opening the rift, to relieve pressure on Hazō)
Can you lay out some examples of how past events would have been approached differently under these changes?

To add to point 3, "yes and" and "no but" harder. You already do this well - and voters do a good job self policing away from dead ends - but shifting down the focus on simulation is a chance to try more explicit cues. If voters want access to Mari's character sheet, "you think Mari wants to see you juggle opsec without sanity checks first." If we have missing slots in our buff stack give us quest hooks to fill them up.
We have previously set that Earthshaping is a masterwork ninjutsu, made by Tobirama Senju or someone of similar skill, and it ended up in Leaf's library because it looks innocuous to those who don't actually know it, as it has only non-combat utility and limited utility at that. The TN for making it is going to be stratospheric.
Earthshaping is in a hard spot. It predates when TH rules were ironed out. ES was trapped being useless for combat + hard to exploit below levels anyone rational would stop leveling it. Under simulation, its tweak potential has to be retroactively stratospherically difficult or useless too.

Stepping back, how hard should making substrate be? It is a special rock, not circuitry. Orochimaru THed Bones of Creation without a sample of substrate to work from but surely knowing the target you want to hit lowers difficulty. Swapping substrate for diamond, diamond making ninjutsu should be very hard or the gem market would always have been flooded - setting aside Merchant Council intervention. And diamonds must be hard find while cave diving or mining with ninjutsu. Should making diamonds be harder than bioengineering chakra rice? Many Earth Element THers existed in history but one person in less than one lifetime bioengineered rice. Tough balance to strike. DYK.

How hard should it be to tweak ES for combat? To me, it felt like Earthshaping was a connection to Hashirama. A hint to what set him apart from other Senju. Instead of many Wood ninjutsu to invest in, one Woodbending technique to rule them all. ES, an attempt to get as close as you could to earthbending - but without bloodline rocket fuel to supercharge it, its effected volume scales 8x each AB. Force applied does not.
  • Motivated reasons for combat tweak potential.
    • Masterworks come in many shapes. Nuclear power plants are masterworks in safety. Some masterworks, remove any element, make any change, they fall apart. Others can be stripped down, hackishly glued to a new frame and still outperform works made from scratch.
    • Tobirama made it near the end of his life before he could finish tweaking it. Other projects were more important.
    • If made by Tobirama near the end of his life, Earthshaping has passed through maybe the hands of 50 Earth Element jōnin? Most dead within five years of promotion or stagnating as clan heads.
    • Maybe Hiruzen thought ES was trash and used his respected position to quietly warn practitioners away it to not shame his teacher.
    • TH by itself is babby. Real shinobi know to get the good good you have to lay in freshly killed Earth Elemental blood, attuning your favored jutsu to your chakra.
    • Before ruling all combat tweaks below S-rank impossible, would it be that broken to roll 1/4 ES for Earth ninjutsu?

Excited to see how the story differs with more handholding!
 
Future of the Quest New

Future of the Quest

Thank you all for the votes in the poll about the future of the quest.

We are going to continue the quest in the afterlife, focusing on Hazō.

Overall, we think this arc provides a lot of opportunities to let us guide the quest narratively a lot more. We'll guarantee that there's a way to escape the afterlife that's accessible to Hazō. We can design challenges that are mostly on-level for Hazō (unlike recent arcs), and if he loses, death will at worst reset him to the afterlife again, making taking on challenges less punishing. Additionally, we will shift to awarding XP according to narrative feats and story arcs, rather than per day, making taking on challenges more rewarding as well.

We understand there are strong preferences in the playerbase towards:
  • Seeing a much faster rate of progression
  • Getting an immediate power-up
  • Having a way to get to Akane
  • Having chakra be scarce, but not impossible to get
  • Having research take a backseat for a while, but not forever
  • Having the "afterlife arc" take a while to get out of

We'll take these preferences into account as we design the upcoming arc.

There were a few topics that were unresolved:
  • Whether Hazō should suffer XP drain when he arrives in the afterlife
  • Whether Hazō should learn of time-dilation between the afterlife and the Human Path
  • Whether Hazō should travel through many Paths before reaching the Human Path

We think the following resolutions are the best path forward. Please give us feedback; these are not decisions set in stone.
  • Regarding Hazō's XP rates in the afterlife: at each award, Hazō will receive a small amount of negative XP and a larger amount of positive XP. This will allow you to respec his pyramid, but he will continue to grow more powerful. We want suggestions of why Hazō isn't substantially affected by the afterlife's memory drain diegetically, though we will just declare it by QM-fiat if we don't find anything we like.
    • Our reasoning for this is that, after discussion and player input, the QMs can see that the bad feeling of numbers-go-down is just too high, and this seems like something that's going to require our finger on the scale to make go away regardless of the circumstances, so we'd rather not mess around with it.
    • In detail, Hazō's negative XP will sit in a separate pool. It can be spent to reduce his levels, just like positive XP is spent to increase them – e.g., it will require -40 XP to drop from level 40 to level 39 and thereby free up an AB 5 slot on your pyramid.
    • Once Hazō returns to the Human Path, his XP will go towards paying off any negative XP that remains unused before it can be applied to embiggening his numbers.
  • Hazō will not learn of time dilation between the afterlife and Human Path. We will QM-certify (and give Hazō in-character reasons to believe) that the various apocalypses facing the Human Path will be averted, and that there will be no situations on the Human Path that deserve his immediate action. Narratively, if this progression-heavy afterlife arc is giving Hazō some time to cook, this could also give the setting some time to cook and stabilize for Hazō to return to and disrupt again. This is not saying that the afterlife time will be 1:1 with Human Path time! We're just not going to make this an overt plot-element yet.
  • Based on the voting for "many paths" versus "straight home", it seems like the community is fairly evenly split. The QMs have decided to break the tie in favor of "straight home", both in aid of conserving our spoons and of leaving narrative room for the Paths to perhaps be their own unique adventure arc in the future. As such, Hazō will adventure through the afterlife and eventually return to the Human Path.






  • The mechanical, effective xp rate Hazo will have.
We are going to switch to XP/feat, based on Hazou's current base rate. The XP/feat will be calibrated to "normal feats" for a ninja of roughly Hazou's caliber. We're not attached to any effective XP rate that will result – if the players are exceptionally active (as is enabled by being unable to truly die), Hazou can earn far more XP than his base.

  • What this arc means for Noburi and Kei's progression.
We'll put this on hold until it becomes relevant.

  • Clarification on what the afterlife with little to no chakra means for research (e.g. no crafting materials, inability to use ES, etc).
We expect that there will be basically no rune research in this arc. Seal/TH research may be possible, but of limited value given the afterlife draining seals of their chakra and making techniques less replenishable.

  • The status on the various doomsday scenarios (dragons, EM proliferation)
We will resolve these in-story, to make sure Hazou has good reason to not feel pressured instead of having it just be OOC information.

  • The specific flavor of powerup Hazo could conceivably get (Jashin priesthood vs MIN, for example)
The QMs feel fairly anemic with regards to Hazou getting an immediate power-up. We're interested in ideas here, but good suggestions will be 1) relatively minor in scope, 2) lead to interesting gameplay, and 3) as an extension of (2), not give ways to solve problems non-interactively.

  • How XP drain is going to work when attempting to lower a skill level that costs more than the drained XP for that chapter (e.g. We lose 10 XP one chapter, can we try to lower Resolve from 63 to 62, and what happens to the remaining 63-10=53 xp if we do so)
See above – you need to accumulate the full skill's worth of negative XP.

Something I am interested in discussing is whether or not the Gōketsu Clan has dissolved and the Pangolin ninjutsu has proliferated. EJ indicated on discord that we might have a chance to vote on that. Is that no longer going to be the case?
Is the core concern here that Kei might get executed by the Pangolin Clan if the Pangolin ninjutsu proliferate? We can guarantee that this won't happen (except if we would immediately be sending Kei to join Hazou in the afterlife quest). Feel free to express your concerns in more detail; we're happy to work with y'all to make sure this arc is fun and doesn't have notes of impending doom (except the standard minimum amount required to satisfy @Velorien).
 
Back
Top