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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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faflec said:
Alternatively, we just keep it on 24/7.
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Then you need a way in or out still.
An always on city defence is useless if it makes the city not be useful as a city.
Reactive wind speed limit is would be an area of effect. Air dome could be bypassed entirely. Heck, set off a big enough explosion inside it and we did the attacker a favor making sure the countryside is not destroyed when they take over.
Like, a full third of all ninja stuff is infiltrating places.
 
Ciber said:
Then you need a way in or out still.
An always on city defence is useless if it makes the city not be useful as a city.
Reactive wind speed limit is would be an area of effect. Air dome could be bypassed entirely. Heck, set off a big enough explosion inside it and we did the attacker a favor making sure the countryside is not destroyed when they take over.
Like, a full third of all ninja stuff is infiltrating places.
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Fair, then scrap the "Air Dome" and replace it with some other more flexible defense that can be kept on while still providing substantial defenses against ninja attack. Like, say, anything moving at high enough speeds gets slowed down to 0, and repelled; but anything moving slowly won't. Like a version of Air Dome that is permeable to slow-moving entities but high-speed attacks like explosions won't.

Layer it with defenses that react the same way to things with high chakra density and that's a way for us to auto-repel attacks.
 
MMKII said:
I admit I'm a bit confused on the confusion here. I figure'd the generic point of "It is an explosives rune, but far far deadlier if you get caught in the blast radius, because instead of an explosion, you're getting hit with Blackboxed Out Bullshit." would have been carried across, but I suppose not...?

I guess I don't really know what to specify here that could've made it clearer. To what extent can we blackbox stuff or leave it up to Hazoupilot? If we overspecify some stuff here, then its to our (mechanical) detriment, but if we underspecify, then I guess that doesn't work either. I personally don't really want to have to spend half an hour to write up a four paragraph documentation for each research thingy to be able to participate in this bit of the quest, mechanically speaking, so what level of detail is appropriate...?
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Retrotemporal explosive. Goes off ~40 seconds before it's triggered. Runic drag amplified, allowing key chakra-flow structures to survive long enough to receive the trigger, avoiding paradox. Blast appears to start at the outer edges of the AoE and propagate inward. Itachi can't avoid it with futuresight because by the time he sees it, it's already hitting him. Lasting crater in the fabric of spacetime means that if someone reverse-summons in the area before the blast, then returns after, telefrag upon return is at least as bad as if they'd just stuck around to take the hit.
 
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A constantly active Air Dome could be useful against aerial attack if it was tough enough.

But still, I would prefer working on killy runes for now.
Have we given up on gamma rays ?

[X] Training Plan Hazou: TH 10
 
[X] Action Plan: Yet More Runes, Yay
Word Count: 299
  • Update Duration: 10 days (subjective)
  • Sanity check with Kei
  • Response to Naruto:
    • Inventing viable Akatsuki-killers is difficult. We've been narrowing possibilities down, but our runecrafting is the limiting factor.
      • We have viable defensive-rune ideas. We'll switch to them if offensive lines of research prove intractable.
    • Query: What attack scenarios on Akatsuki are strategically viable? How are our weapons expected to be deployed?
      • How well can we track/surveil Akatsuki?
      • Any circumstances where we can pin them down in advance? Trick them into being predictable?
      • Feasibility of destroying two Akatsuki pairs in quick succession, such that killing one pair doesn't alert the others?
      • Does Akatsuki have any non-Summoning long distance communications?
  • Sasha
    • Write a heartfelt congratulations letter to Sasha for graduating. Express confidence in a long career ahead of her.
    • Have Mari ensure her jonin-sensei is solid
    • Order a party/celebration for her.
  • Research
  • Miscellaneous
    • Submit FBotEM to the Leaf Library.
      • Offer financial incentives to learn it
    • Offer Tenten RBs for her personal use in exchange for working on the Rocket Boosted Kunai Project.
    • Cannai: Are there currently any places in/near Dog with active combat?
      • Otherwise, ask Kei to scout for some nearby dangerous chakra beasts.
    • Have Kagome inquire in Arachnid regarding a human-usable jutsu to manipulate chakra-conductive silk, as a possible alternative to runecrafting with earthen substrate
 
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Here is a proto plan that uses a full rune research cycle to try some stuff.

I think "Explosive Runes but more oomph" is the lowest hanging fruit we can try to pursue offensively. Ping me (here or on Discord) if you want those posts edited or find them unclear.

From a defensive/utility standpoint, I think we should immediately pursue Runic Air Domes (and hopefully either utilize this or build on it for a BIG version) and TR 75, (E: I was going to try the Mirror Dragon Rune thing but forgot about TR75, whoops). One helps defend Leaf against reprisal, the other can maybe nuke enemy action economy. In addition to that, I think prep days on the telescope rune (tracking enemies from afar), and two versions of the "make the air really fucking difficult to move through" idea. I'm not particularly attached to either one of those ATM but I couldn't think of a third option so I put both in. If y'all can decide on a good defensive or utility rune that would be of use then feel free to write up a blurb and @ me about it.

I dont really know what to do with the third track, but I figured looking at Minato Seal 9 and 10 would maybe be worthwhile now that we know technique hacking. In addition to that we can use the last day on that track to figure out if "Multi element rune" even is a thing we can do right now, or if that whole concept is kind of beyond the kid. That has some implications for the defensive rune stuff, or any runic MARS shenanigans we might want to do later.

[x] Action Plan: Problem Solving
Words: tbd

  • Write back to Naruto
    • We've been using SC to explore a spread of possible ideas, and are narrowing down possibilities.
      • Many avenues have been dead-ends but some look promising. We're looking into
    • (If Hazou thinks this works out/is worthwhile) Inform Naruto of the Bladehorror Rift in Iron and its location. Orochimaru might be able to use it to give his designs a final test run.
  • Research
    • 1st SSA Track, full prep
      • Runic Air Dome
    • 2nd SSA Track, full prep
      • TR75
    • 3rd non-SSA track:
      • Look at seals 9 and 10 in the Jinchuuriki Chain. Now that you know Technique Hacking, is it any clearer? Do a prep day on both.
      • Simplest Possible Multi-Element Rune: Hazou's choice of how to approach this.
    • 4th Track: Prep days to do difficulty checks on offensive stuff.
    • 5th Track: Difficulty checks on defensive or utility stuff.
 
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Another potentially pivotal anti-Itachi trick, which might require Sasuke's involvement to fine-tune, but could be approximated thanks to the Iron Nerve: a rune which activates itself (and, for the prototype, does something distinctive but innocuous, like produce a non-damaging beam of light) solely in response to Sharingan-based scrutiny.

Paired with beyond-blue lasers and/or retrotemporal explosive, that could effectively turn Itachi's own use of his bloodline into a loss condition for him. Can't minesweep with shadow clones because they don't have the bloodline. If properly calibrated, it's harmless to everyone on our side except for Sasuke (who can simply be ordered not to stick his face in the bear trap), outside of the contingency where they're standing next to Itachi when he blows himself up.
 
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Since dragon inspired runes are maybe possible, here are a few more prep day ideas:

Draconic Decay Explosion Rune
(Inspired by the balefire rune)
The dragons were toxic to the 7th path and ate through any mundane matter. This rune attempts to do the same by harnessing corruptive Out energy into an explosion of the default size. The explosion evaporates most sorts of matter, and the corruption lingers and damages anything that goes in the affected region after the explosion as a continuous dissolving effect. NOT propagating.

Mirror Storage Rune
A rune that looks like a highly faceted crystal. When activated, stores living things with chakra in its facets. Has an easier time the more chakra the target has.

And some defensive/utility rune ideas since Naruto wants them too:

Action Relay Rune
like an ARS but instead of a seal it's a rune. And it activates runes. Has as big of a range as Hazo thinks doable.

Melding Air Dome Rune
Air Domes that can merge like metaballs (which can be easily modeled mathematically).

Jutsu Redirection Rune
Inside the area of effect, all external chakra constructs get redirected away in a straight line from the rune. Jutsu cast from inside the area of effect gain extra speed/range if cast in a straight line away from the rune.

Jutsu Redistribution Rune
All external chakra constructs start diffusing evenly throughout the rune's area of effect. Casting a jutsu inside of the area is possible but they invariably diffuse away within a small distance.

Substitution Target Rune
All substitution done inside the area of effect invariably transports the person right beside the rune (yes even across multiple zones).
 
Here's a very... specific rune combo attack:

Icarus Rune
Prevents the formation of Air Domes in a very wide radius

Atmospheric Collapse Rune
Stores a vast, vast quantity of air, producing a large suction effect centered around itself.

Combine the two and any Akatsuki currently skywalking will find themselves helplessly carried through the air towards the rune, which naturally also hosts another rune that actually kills them. Probably only works at midrange, and only for some Akatsuki members, but it could be a solid piece of the puzzle.

As a bonus, "extremely strong winds" sounds like the sort of thing that might even give Konan some second thoughts, if its AoE is wide enough.
 
A few weapon ideas:
  • Accelerator Rune: accelerates an object traveling above/parallel to it. chain together to create a railgun. effective with macerators
  • Pain Field Rune: causes everyone within the range of its effect to undergo excruciating pain. ideally an advanced version would have a whitelist (based on blood/DNA or chakra) of people who are exempt from the effect
 
Can we get Canary Rune and Unsummoning Anchor prep days in plans, please? If either one works, it'll majorly advance our weapons programs.


Re: defences against Deidara and Konan fortunetly, their strategic-scale offences are pretty one-dimensional, and they both use the same attack type.

Kagome's Tears
Neutralises all explosions and blast waves in an area.
 
I'm not going to vote for plans that do not ask Cannai if he can help us unstagnate in a hurry.
 
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Analysis of light-related seals
  • Informational
    • On the Power Output of Harumitsu's Outstanding World-Saving Seals (and Jiraiya's Amazing Daybright Lantern Seals)
    In the past the power output of HOWS has been based on comparisons to LEDs of comparable brightness and wattage.
    eaglejarl said:
    A bit of poking on the internet suggests that a 60W incandescent desk light would be 800-900 lumens, whereas an LED light would only require 8W for the equivalent brightness, so we'll use that as the equivalent power of the seal. (For simplicity, we'll assume that all of it is light (for the visible-spectrum HOWS) or heat (for the infrared-spectrum HOWS).)
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    eaglejarl said:
    Right, should have gone with lumens. That means that the JADL is ~900 lumens (make the math easy) and HOWS is about 300, right?
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    However there are two issues:
    1. Lumens are based on human perception of brightness which varies by wavelength of light, so lights of different wavelengths but the same power can have different lumens.
    2. Wattage of a light is rated by input power, not output of desired light.

    So visible HOWS could attempt to maintain consistent lumens across the spectrum, a fixed power output, or some other weird rule because chakra.

    While consistent lumens seems intuitive, this breaks down around the edges of the visible spectrum since human frequency response is poor in these regions and causes the requisite power output to balloon toward infinity. This is the conversion from lumens to watts called the luminous efficiency function which takes into account human frequency response. And here is a data table of human frequency responses which was frustratingly hard to find even though it's part of an international standard from an organization called CIE.

    The calculated conversions see a wide range of outputs across the spectrum:
    [For 300 lumens, assuming colored HOWS is pure single wavelength light]
    Violet (415 nm) - 30.7 W
    Blue (468 nm) - 3.66 W
    Cyan (492 nm) - 1.72 W
    Green (557 nm) - 0.439 W
    Yellow (578 nm) - 0.480 W
    Orange (608 nm) - 0.750 W
    Red (688 nm) - 43.5 W

    If we assume a fixed power output instead, what number to pick? The input power of the equivalent LED isn't appropriate as a lot of that turns into heat rather than visible light even with the improved efficiency of LEDs. We can use the luminous efficiency function from earlier to try to solve for power but there's an annoying integral.

    300 lumens = 683.002 lumens/W * [integral of spectral power distribution over wavelengths weighted by human frequency response] W

    The spectral power distribution characterizes the mixture of wavelengths emitted by a light source, so one solution is to assume a distribution based on an appropriate kind of light source, scale it to fit 300 lumens in the equation, and then integrate the scaled distribution to find its total output power across all visible frequencies. Let's use a distribution representative of a comparable white LED. Since normal JADLS was previously described as having yellowish hue, it's likely a warm white with a low color temperature similar to incandescent lights.

    CIE has some standard distributions called illuminants representing various types of light sources, such as LEDs. Using LED-B2 (low color temperature of around 3000 K) we arrive at around 0.9 W. If we tweaked lumens to ~333 we could even round it off to 1 W. Then HOWS have an output of 2.7 or 3 W. At a fixed power, green HOWS look much brighter than violet or red HOWS.

    But why go through all this trouble about calculations in the first place?

    On Discord there was some discussion of whether visible light/UV HOWS would radiate perceptible amounts of heat during Hazo's testing like IR HOWS do. The reasoning being that if Hazo felt heat from all types of HOWS then he would be more open to revisiting IR HOWS. That was based on an output of 4 W or even 8 W. At 0.9 W we can do a calculation with the inverse square law and equal hemispheric distribution of the light to conclude that a hand around 30 cm away will see about 1.59 W/m^2 of irradiance (incoming energy per unit area).

    Compare this to some Youtuber aiming a 375 nm UV laser pointer at their own hand for a couple seconds and not immediately getting a burn or calling out that they feel heat, which I don't think they would have a reason to conceal. Now the power of that laser may not have been all that high, but even a 1 mW laser with 1 mrad of divergence (on the level of a weak consumer-grade laser pointer) at 1 m away nets an irradiance of 318 W/m^2 according to this laser irradiance calculator. And UV is less reflected by skin than visible or IR wavelengths, so unless there is something tricky about light absorption being missed here, then UV not heating the skin perceptibly should imply the same for a visible light equivalent.

    In summary, a single HOWS/JADLS in visible/UV wavelengths probably does not output light at a high enough density (assuming a fixed power of 0.9/2.7 W across the spectrum) to noticeably heat skin at a ruler's length away. However, I cannot say with much certainty on whether the same applies to the infrared variant, especially since it's already established in story that its heat can be felt.

    Possible explanations (I do not pretend to understand enough about heat equations or the intricacies of light absorption to dare try calculating or even approximating solutions here, someone else can chip in if they have experimental evidence with IR lasers):
    1. Infrared light seals have a sharp power jump compared to other variants for unknown reasons - interestingly this would somewhat vindicate the treatment of it as a sealing failure.
    2. The tuning of past-red took the seal to an infrared wavelength that penetrates skin deeply and is readily absorbed by water to heat it, somewhat like microwaves. This leads to water near nerves being directly heated compared to UV absorption which is mostly in the topmost layer of skin where heat can more easily escape - seems plausible but it could be bullshit. Excess energy has to go somewhere as per thermodynamics and the most common destination for it is to heat something, even if it comes after the visible/UV light does random electron/chemical interactions.
    3. Infrared light seals should not be felt just like other variants because they are too weak - huge research retcon.
    4. Something else entirely - chakra is trolling/this has caused enough headaches as is so let's do something else instead.
    I used a library called Colour which handles a lot of the relevant CIE standards and standard color science functions.
    Python: 
    import colour
# Spectral power distribution of LED-B2 illuminant
led_b2 = colour.SDS_ILLUMINANTS['LED-B2']
# Standard observer color matching functions, give human cone responses to light spectrum as tristimulus values and is used to help do rendering of colors
observer = colour.colorimetry.MSDS_CMFS['CIE 2015 10 Degree Standard Observer']
# Luminous efficiency function that gives overall human frequency response to different wavelengths of light
lef = colour.colorimetry.SDS_LEFS['CIE 2008 10 Degree Physiologically Relevant LEF']
# A weighting function that is 1 for all visible wavelengths
lef_ones = colour.colorimetry.sd_ones()

def plot_illuminant(sd):
    colour.plotting.plot_single_illuminant_sd(sd, observer, title=sd.name)

scale_factor_300_lm = 300 / colour.luminous_flux(led_b2, lef)
# Use lef_ones and 1 as arguments to remove weighting function and constant scalar from conversion so that only integral calculating total radiant flux is left
radiant_flux_300_lm = colour.luminous_flux(led_b2 * scale_factor_300_lm, lef_ones, 1)
scale_factor_1_W = scale_factor_300_lm / radiant_flux_300_lm
luminous_flux_1_W = colour.luminous_flux(led_b2 * scale_factor_1_W, lef)
print(f'Radiant flux of LED-B2 at 300 lumens: {radiant_flux_300_lm} W')
print(f'Luminous flux of LED-B2 at 1 W output: {luminous_flux_1_W} lumens')
# Radiant flux of LED-B2 at 300 lumens: 0.9018520559135683 W
# Luminous flux of LED-B2 at 1 W output: 332.64879536821877 lumens
plot_illuminant(led_b2)
# Graph of spectral power distribution, showing large peak at 600 nm and a smaller peak at 450 nm
     
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  • Informational
    • Couple things I'm noticing in some plans

    1) how is Hazou going to get his new jutsu spread about for till and fills. He's currently out adventuring. Write it in a scroll, I guess?

    2) the Sasha stuff may be a good interlude. Trying to have mari bribe to get a good jonin sensei feels... icky. Keeping other people's bribes from screwing us over, sure. But we don't want some people to get worse senseis because we rigged the system, right? That's the sort of thing that the KEI actively started because of.

    3) did we already tell Oro about the iron blade horror rift, or Naruto, at some point?

    4) If not for this plan, for Sunday, can we PLEASE unstagnate combat. Aside from it being inefficient XP wise (and we really need XP for things), a meaningfulness combat encounter could only be, like, a day in universe. We very an extra one of those every 5 days. Between that, and the "QM had fun" if we let EJ write punching, I honestly think it would be net positive for our research speed, to say nothing of being helpful for Kei and her growth.

    4.1) I'd personally really like for the combat to mean something. Like, have it be getting Chakra water, or some other fight where there are stakes besides "it's a fight". That way, we get more from winning and spending the time on it as well.

    5) Can we put into plans that were going to start reading TH notes or something, now that we're hiring TH 10?

    6) some of the research plans seem out of sync, regarding use of SSA and time, though maybe I'm misreading it. But in general, I'm a fan of finishing ongoing projects that are broadly Helpful (force blades, catears), things we can show Naruto (air dome), and making sure to take QM advice regarding how to best have Hazou research.



    Realized it would have been faster to just write a new plan with these things instead of observations/wish list. Rip. If at least 3 people like this post, I'll write one based on this stuff and update it regularly?
     
    Halberdier said:
    4.1) I'd personally really like for the combat to mean something. Like, have it be getting Chakra water, or some other fight where there are stakes besides "it's a fight". That way, we get more from winning and spending the time on it as well.
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    Sorry, but I'm not sure we can find such a thing as meaningful combat when we're in the middle of an arc predicated on us not doing that.
     
    Halberdier said:
    Couple things I'm noticing in some plans

    1) how is Hazou going to get his new jutsu spread about for till and fills. He's currently out adventuring. Write it in a scroll, I guess?

    2) the Sasha stuff may be a good interlude. Trying to have mari bribe to get a good jonin sensei feels... icky. Keeping other people's bribes from screwing us over, sure. But we don't want some people to get worse senseis because we rigged the system, right? That's the sort of thing that the KEI actively started because of.

    3) did we already tell Oro about the iron blade horror rift, or Naruto, at some point?

    4) If not for this plan, for Sunday, can we PLEASE unstagnate combat. Aside from it being inefficient XP wise (and we really need XP for things), a meaningfulness combat encounter could only be, like, a day in universe. We very an extra one of those every 5 days. Between that, and the "QM had fun" if we let EJ write punching, I honestly think it would be net positive for our research speed, to say nothing of being helpful for Kei and her growth.

    4.1) I'd personally really like for the combat to mean something. Like, have it be getting Chakra water, or some other fight where there are stakes besides "it's a fight". That way, we get more from winning and spending the time on it as well.

    5) Can we put into plans that were going to start reading TH notes or something, now that we're hiring TH 10?

    6) some of the research plans seem out of sync, regarding use of SSA and time, though maybe I'm misreading it. But in general, I'm a fan of finishing ongoing projects that are broadly Helpful (force blades, catears), things we can show Naruto (air dome), and making sure to take QM advice regarding how to best have Hazou research.



    Realized it would have been faster to just write a new plan with these things instead of observations/wish list. Rip. If at least 3 people like this post, I'll write one based on this stuff and update it regularly?
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    1) A scroll, yes
    2) Every other Clan does this, do you want her to get left with a bad sensei?
    3) Implemented
    4) Working on it, although I'd rather do a quick research cycle first to wrap up Runic Air Domes
    4.1) Chakra Water isn't happening IMO, we have no one who can study it, and it's halfway across the EN. Meaningful combat is scarce right now.
    5) We still have Sealing notes. I'd much rather finish those.
    6) If you have specific criticisms here please let me know. Mine is correct to the best of my knowledge.
     
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