Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
What I'm hearing is "you can fake your death and join Akatsuki"
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
MARI (through a door): Ami, I get that you've been plotting, I mean looking forward to this marriage ever since you first met Hazō, but you've got to let him out of the bedroom. You two have been in there for a fortnight straight, and we need Hazō for clan business!
AMI: It's not my fault! He's got more stamina than any man I've ever met, and he just keeps going. Please, Mari, you've got to get Kei to tag in before my jaw falls off.
MARI: ???
AMI: I haven't had a wink of sleep in two weeks. "What is the Tenfold Abomination, Ami? What's the connection between the Five and the Nine, Ami? How do the Mori protect themselves from psychic contamination, Ami?"
MARI: Maybe you should have thought twice before promising to satisfy him the way no other woman could.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I am very fine with that.
[X] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Diplomatic Support
That's honestly a pretty horrible idea. And like @Cariyaga points out, I'd kind of feel bad yelling at him again after he seems to have experienced personal growth...
...
[х] I Hits A Bits
[х] I Hits A Bits
[х] I Hits A Bits
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- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
- Location
- Italy
[ ] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
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- Location
- a
Hey, I see you are wasting word count there. This far should be enough. Don't you guys prefer it when it's more effecient like this?
- Location
- Italy
The primary problem i have with "Politely Decline" is that Itachi clearly wants to keep OPSEC on necromancy....but he's willing to let Hazou walk away and tell everything to Tsunade? That activates my "Hazou is going to die" alarm
Indeed it does! I suppose I had inverted up and down mentally, likely because monkey brain suggests up = "time go up" and down = "time go down". Come to think of it, I have a tendency not to visualize concepts in my head by default, something which likely both contributes to and is rooted in my mild case of aphantasmia and... very poor spatial memory, lets just say, ha.
It partially comes down to the sheer number of operations being necessary and the numbers easily simplifying with one another vs not, and partially to the order in which said operations are made and common denominators, the difference being sort of like calculating 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 via addition as opposed to 7 * 3 = 21. For the sake of clarity, I will rebrand certain terms used by my suggested ruleset based on your feedback, without any functional changes to it so far (see : Note), so that the two rulesets can be compared more easily. Let me picture the two side by side and leave the conclusion as to which ruleset is simpler to understand and run to your thoughts without further commentary :
- Current Ruleset (Paper) :
- Assign TN to the Consequence. Rule of thumb as stated is TN 10 / 20 / 30 +/- points for perceived severity at QM's discretion.
- Assign Shifts to the Consequence. Equal to 20 / 200 / 2000 * (1 - 0.1 * (Attack Stress Inflicted - (5/6/7 if Mild/Medium/Severe)).
- Daily : 20 Shifts if the character is At Rest.
- Daily : Roll Physique/Resolve against Wound TN and get Shifts (min 0).
- Daily : A doctor can roll MedKnow vs Wound TN and get that many Shifts. Removes base healing on Failure.
- Daily : A medic can roll both MedKnow and MedNin vs Wound TN. If either roll fails, removes base healing. If MedKnow fails, get that many Shifts (MedNin ends up not mattering at all here despite rolling!). If MedKnow succeeds, get min(0, 2 * MedNin Shifts) Shifts.
- Daily : Tally up all the above, then subtract the sum from the Shifts of the Consequence that is currently healing.
- Assign TN to the Consequence. Rarity-based. Common wounds are TN 10/20 (Average/Fair), exotic ills clock TN 60 (Fantastic) or beyond.
- Assign Shifts to the Consequence. Equal to 20 / 200 / 2000 * Attack Roll / (Physique or Resolve).
- A doctor can roll MedKnow vs Wound TN to make a Treatment Plan. Grants 1 Healing Boost per Shift on every day it is followed.
- Daily : A medic can roll MedNin vs Physique TN. Grants 2 Healing Boosts per Shift if Successful, or -2 if the Treatment Plan is a Failure.
- Daily : Subtract (20 + Healing Boosts) Shifts from the Consequence, or double that much if At Rest.
I mildly rebranded the terms I used in the first draft of my suggestion based on your feedback but so far made no functional changes to it.
The former version had 24 / 240 / 2400 base hours in a Consequence (1 / 10 / 100 days). I scaled that down to 20 / 200 / 2000 Shifts with 20 Shifts of recovery per day at base rate (which remains 1 / 10 / 100 days). Each Shift in a Consequence corresponds to 24 / 20 = 1.2 hours of healing at base rate, which ultimately is close enough to approximate an Hour still. You also expressed doubts about using percentages. I renamed them into Healing Boosts to avoid confusion but no functional change otherwise (1 Healing Boost / 20 base Shifts per day = 5% still). I hope the formula above looks as clean and tidy to me, as it does to you.
==================================================================
A mock up of how the suggested ruleset would see Hazou's circumstances :
TN : 30 (Good) -> Burns are quite common a ninja injury, even more so in the land of Fire than elsewhere, but these are third degree burns.
Shifts : 95 (Fireball) / 35 (Physique) * 2000 (Severe) = 5428 -> Ouch. Guess that's a big reason to level Physique!
5428 / 20 = 271.4 days to heal at base rate. In real life, severe third degree burns take around a year to heal, so that seems reasonable.
But, we have Noburi! Well, probably Tsunade would be best to prepare a Treatment Plan here, but he is not bad at all! This is high effort and matters so he takes +3 TL steps and burns FP to get +6 on the dice, also invoking "I Will Be The Next Tsunade" and "Team Uplift" to do so.
After he makes the Treatment Plan, he will spare "An Hour" a day giving Hazou MedNin attention, the base TL step for the task so rolling without a prep modifier. No invokes or rerolls either. Hazou will only perform minimal physical activities and Rest until the Consequence is gone.
Noburi (Medical Knowledge) : 50 (Base) + 6 (I Will Be The Next Tsunade) + 6 (Team Uplift) + 18 (+3 AB from Preparation) + 6 (Dice) = 86
Wound TN : 30 -> 19 Shifts, so +19 Healing Boosts while Hazou is following the Treatment Plan!
Noburi (Medical Ninjutsu) : 45 (Base) + 0 (Dice) = 45
Hazou (Physique TN) : 35 -> 4 Shifts, so +8 Healing Boosts extra on the average day Hazou is given Noburi's mednin attention.
20 (Base) + 19 (MedKnow) + 8 (MedNin) = 47 * 2 (At Rest) = 94 Daily Healing Rate
Hazou would heal an average of 94 Shifts from his Severe Consequence per day. It would take 5428 / 94 = 57.7 Rest days to recover, or 115.5 if he took no Rest, 139.2 days if he also didn't get mednin attention but followed the (S-rank) Treatment Plan. 271.4 days if he didn't do even that.
==================================================================
As for the mechanical differences themselves :
First, my suggestion integrates the "daily recovery" from Physique under Paper's system directly into the formula that determines the amount of Shifts in a Consequence, meaning it stacks multiplicatively with Healing and Rest, instead of every variable being additive (if healing and rest bolster natural healing, a healthier body should improve the recovery rate). Perhaps more crucially, Physique no longer has to be rolled at all, let alone daily, as a result of the change, removing the need for one of the checks.
Next, I made interactions between MedNin and MedKnow much clearer. MedKnow makes a Treatment Plan, which accelerates natural healing and is long term. It does not require daily rerolls either, as it is a diagnosis and a long term prescription for whatever ills plague the patient. A Mednin, meanwhile, needs to know that Treatment Plan to work their magic, because they need to know what to fix. They can come up with it themselves if they are experienced in MedKnow, on the spot if need be by moving up the time ladder (Half a Minute for -3 AB, 10 Minutes normally, A Few Hours for +3 AB), or they could follow the Treatment Plan made by a more experienced medic that shared it with them. This means that Tsunade can now make Treatment Plans and share them with lesser mednin who actually take care of the patients, quickly moving on to diagnose the next and the next and the next. This is simulationist - but impossible under Paper's ruleset.
The MedNin/MedKnow roll changes also resolve many miscellaneous issues. For example, under Paper's system, the MedNin roll does not matter at all when it comes to the degree to which someone is harmed if the medic fails their MedKnow check. This is no longer the case. Said ruleset also features an exceedingly steep failure-threshold-modifier for the recovery rate, which makes the aid of genin mednin exceedingly bad and outright harmful rather than helpful. To illustrate, rolling 29 vs TN 30 on either the MedNin or the MedKnow check while administering care fully blocks 20 daily Shifts from Rest, which usually make up the bulk of the healing in that ruleset, meanwhile rolling 30 (1 higher) does not inhibit it at all and even applies some actual mednin healing on top. This issue is also no longer the case.
Further, I made Rest a 2x multiplier on total recovery, rather than an additive modifier like in Paper's version. This means that if a character is resting under mednin/medknow care, the effect of said care is doubled by the fact that they are Resting, rather than just being added on top, which makes more sense than just adding everything together.
Establishing a base daily healing rate (20) instead of Physique checks (where Physique instead reduces the amount of Shifts on a Consequence), also means the recovery rate scales the same across all manner of relative Physiques and TNs, instead of having a disproportional runaway effect due to their interactions, which is another (minor) issue fixed in the process, without sacrificing simulationism or depth.
There are a few minor differences between the two systems unlisted above, such as "Medical Care can be time-laddered up twice for Mild Consequences and once for Moderate Consequences" in Paper's, versus "Medical Care can be time-laddered up or down by three steps at most" in the suggestion, but these come down to which approach better fits the MFD reality, and I found that many treatments shown throughout the story took as little as minutes of actual work, while some took many hours, so I found the leeway there appropriate.
The former version had 24 / 240 / 2400 base hours in a Consequence (1 / 10 / 100 days). I scaled that down to 20 / 200 / 2000 Shifts with 20 Shifts of recovery per day at base rate (which remains 1 / 10 / 100 days). Each Shift in a Consequence corresponds to 24 / 20 = 1.2 hours of healing at base rate, which ultimately is close enough to approximate an Hour still. You also expressed doubts about using percentages. I renamed them into Healing Boosts to avoid confusion but no functional change otherwise (1 Healing Boost / 20 base Shifts per day = 5% still). I hope the formula above looks as clean and tidy to me, as it does to you.
==================================================================
A mock up of how the suggested ruleset would see Hazou's circumstances :
TN : 30 (Good) -> Burns are quite common a ninja injury, even more so in the land of Fire than elsewhere, but these are third degree burns.
Shifts : 95 (Fireball) / 35 (Physique) * 2000 (Severe) = 5428 -> Ouch. Guess that's a big reason to level Physique!
5428 / 20 = 271.4 days to heal at base rate. In real life, severe third degree burns take around a year to heal, so that seems reasonable.
But, we have Noburi! Well, probably Tsunade would be best to prepare a Treatment Plan here, but he is not bad at all! This is high effort and matters so he takes +3 TL steps and burns FP to get +6 on the dice, also invoking "I Will Be The Next Tsunade" and "Team Uplift" to do so.
After he makes the Treatment Plan, he will spare "An Hour" a day giving Hazou MedNin attention, the base TL step for the task so rolling without a prep modifier. No invokes or rerolls either. Hazou will only perform minimal physical activities and Rest until the Consequence is gone.
Noburi (Medical Knowledge) : 50 (Base) + 6 (I Will Be The Next Tsunade) + 6 (Team Uplift) + 18 (+3 AB from Preparation) + 6 (Dice) = 86
Wound TN : 30 -> 19 Shifts, so +19 Healing Boosts while Hazou is following the Treatment Plan!
Noburi (Medical Ninjutsu) : 45 (Base) + 0 (Dice) = 45
Hazou (Physique TN) : 35 -> 4 Shifts, so +8 Healing Boosts extra on the average day Hazou is given Noburi's mednin attention.
20 (Base) + 19 (MedKnow) + 8 (MedNin) = 47 * 2 (At Rest) = 94 Daily Healing Rate
Hazou would heal an average of 94 Shifts from his Severe Consequence per day. It would take 5428 / 94 = 57.7 Rest days to recover, or 115.5 if he took no Rest, 139.2 days if he also didn't get mednin attention but followed the (S-rank) Treatment Plan. 271.4 days if he didn't do even that.
==================================================================
As for the mechanical differences themselves :
First, my suggestion integrates the "daily recovery" from Physique under Paper's system directly into the formula that determines the amount of Shifts in a Consequence, meaning it stacks multiplicatively with Healing and Rest, instead of every variable being additive (if healing and rest bolster natural healing, a healthier body should improve the recovery rate). Perhaps more crucially, Physique no longer has to be rolled at all, let alone daily, as a result of the change, removing the need for one of the checks.
Next, I made interactions between MedNin and MedKnow much clearer. MedKnow makes a Treatment Plan, which accelerates natural healing and is long term. It does not require daily rerolls either, as it is a diagnosis and a long term prescription for whatever ills plague the patient. A Mednin, meanwhile, needs to know that Treatment Plan to work their magic, because they need to know what to fix. They can come up with it themselves if they are experienced in MedKnow, on the spot if need be by moving up the time ladder (Half a Minute for -3 AB, 10 Minutes normally, A Few Hours for +3 AB), or they could follow the Treatment Plan made by a more experienced medic that shared it with them. This means that Tsunade can now make Treatment Plans and share them with lesser mednin who actually take care of the patients, quickly moving on to diagnose the next and the next and the next. This is simulationist - but impossible under Paper's ruleset.
The MedNin/MedKnow roll changes also resolve many miscellaneous issues. For example, under Paper's system, the MedNin roll does not matter at all when it comes to the degree to which someone is harmed if the medic fails their MedKnow check. This is no longer the case. Said ruleset also features an exceedingly steep failure-threshold-modifier for the recovery rate, which makes the aid of genin mednin exceedingly bad and outright harmful rather than helpful. To illustrate, rolling 29 vs TN 30 on either the MedNin or the MedKnow check while administering care fully blocks 20 daily Shifts from Rest, which usually make up the bulk of the healing in that ruleset, meanwhile rolling 30 (1 higher) does not inhibit it at all and even applies some actual mednin healing on top. This issue is also no longer the case.
Further, I made Rest a 2x multiplier on total recovery, rather than an additive modifier like in Paper's version. This means that if a character is resting under mednin/medknow care, the effect of said care is doubled by the fact that they are Resting, rather than just being added on top, which makes more sense than just adding everything together.
Establishing a base daily healing rate (20) instead of Physique checks (where Physique instead reduces the amount of Shifts on a Consequence), also means the recovery rate scales the same across all manner of relative Physiques and TNs, instead of having a disproportional runaway effect due to their interactions, which is another (minor) issue fixed in the process, without sacrificing simulationism or depth.
There are a few minor differences between the two systems unlisted above, such as "Medical Care can be time-laddered up twice for Mild Consequences and once for Moderate Consequences" in Paper's, versus "Medical Care can be time-laddered up or down by three steps at most" in the suggestion, but these come down to which approach better fits the MFD reality, and I found that many treatments shown throughout the story took as little as minutes of actual work, while some took many hours, so I found the leeway there appropriate.
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Aodyssey
The glass will not protecc you
- Location
- Chaldea
[x] I Hits A Bits
Sure. I expect any plan eaglejarl would enjoy writing would be meta-healthy for the state of the thread. I don't expect it to end up with Hazou dead or put into a lose state.
For fairness:
[X] Propose to Snowflake, then Kei
Sure. I expect any plan eaglejarl would enjoy writing would be meta-healthy for the state of the thread. I don't expect it to end up with Hazou dead or put into a lose state.
For fairness:
[X] Propose to Snowflake, then Kei
He mentioned dimensionalism in front of Shikamaru, who has no doubt already deduced what is going on. I don't think there's any way Tsunade doesn't figure out what they're doing. Although I suppose Itachi might not know that, if he wasn't aware that Hazō mentioned the rift in his after-action report.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Man. There's so many plans. And there's bots and pieces in pretty much every plan that I am worried about. Kind of overwhelming, really.
Eh. I'll just start going through them slowly from the top and hope to have gotten anywhere by the time I have to go to work.
Revealing our Bloodline limit is going very much all in. It also risks the abduction of Mist Kurosawa, but I don't know how much we care about that.
Revealing Ami's treasonous tendencies to Itachi is very much a dick move. We are unilaterally risking her life in multiple ways. Not just because we make an Essie interested in her right here and now, but also because we reveal stuff about her regarding the people who she has to professionally manipulate, because we give Itachi (and thus Akatsuki) a way to blackmail her by threatening to reveal what we said to Leaf, and because we want to have her join this little discussion in plain sight of ANBU or whoever else is observing it. Two ex-Mist ninja discuss with Itachi and return unharmed. One of them an expert liar, both of them arguably insane. No Leaf ninja is going to like this one bit.
Minato has been dead for a long time. Does it make sense to hinge any part of the cooperation on him?
I don't remember us telling the Hokage about necromancy, but that might be a me issue.
I don't think Itachi puts that much trust in oaths, even earnest oaths. Humans are both capable of changing their minds and of deluding themselves. This makes the whole "must swear loyalty to AMITY or stay dead" thing kind of weak.
Same goes for the Hazō swearing to serve Akatsuki only if the alternative is dying thing. If Itachi was actually lying about allowing us to live if we want to stay in Leaf, then this whole conversation is happening because he doesn't trust a recalcitrant sealmaster in Akatsuki's midst. And I am pretty sure that we the players wouldn't stick to the oath to serve Akatsuki no matter what. Multiple of us have expressed thoughts of pulling a kamikaze on Sasori.
All in all, I think that this plan has enough issues for me to have to vote for the even less fleshed out second place plan.
[X] Action Plan: Politely Decline
Eh. I'll just start going through them slowly from the top and hope to have gotten anywhere by the time I have to go to work.
First, let me tell you that if we go this all in, I actually prefer the one that also reveals lithosealing. Not that I am very much in favor of going this all in in the first place.
Revealing our Bloodline limit is going very much all in. It also risks the abduction of Mist Kurosawa, but I don't know how much we care about that.
Revealing Ami's treasonous tendencies to Itachi is very much a dick move. We are unilaterally risking her life in multiple ways. Not just because we make an Essie interested in her right here and now, but also because we reveal stuff about her regarding the people who she has to professionally manipulate, because we give Itachi (and thus Akatsuki) a way to blackmail her by threatening to reveal what we said to Leaf, and because we want to have her join this little discussion in plain sight of ANBU or whoever else is observing it. Two ex-Mist ninja discuss with Itachi and return unharmed. One of them an expert liar, both of them arguably insane. No Leaf ninja is going to like this one bit.
Minato has been dead for a long time. Does it make sense to hinge any part of the cooperation on him?
I don't remember us telling the Hokage about necromancy, but that might be a me issue.
I don't think Itachi puts that much trust in oaths, even earnest oaths. Humans are both capable of changing their minds and of deluding themselves. This makes the whole "must swear loyalty to AMITY or stay dead" thing kind of weak.
Same goes for the Hazō swearing to serve Akatsuki only if the alternative is dying thing. If Itachi was actually lying about allowing us to live if we want to stay in Leaf, then this whole conversation is happening because he doesn't trust a recalcitrant sealmaster in Akatsuki's midst. And I am pretty sure that we the players wouldn't stick to the oath to serve Akatsuki no matter what. Multiple of us have expressed thoughts of pulling a kamikaze on Sasori.
All in all, I think that this plan has enough issues for me to have to vote for the even less fleshed out second place plan.
[X] Action Plan: Politely Decline
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- Location
- a
[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
[x] I Hits A Bits
Screw it, I guess I'm voting for the joining plan and @eaglejarl "100% risk free" plans.
[x] I Hits A Bits
Screw it, I guess I'm voting for the joining plan and @eaglejarl "100% risk free" plans.
@Buggy I think revealing 3D Sealing was a major appeal of your plan for many people, as shock and awe that actually works. We need to drop a bombshell, not edit it out for a feeble persuasion attempt. Plus, I find myself agreeing with all the points @Rafin raised above.
"Actually we're an S-rank Sealmaster in disguise via bloodline, except no other Kurosawa is and somehow we have no results to show with Project Necromancy despite working it for so long" is not a stellar pitch. Itachi is unlikely to care or even understand the significance of our bloodline, which is meagre all things considered - he is not a Sealmaster and our lacking results speak for themselves from his point of view. We cannot even prove our "S-rank Skills" if we needed to since we currently have a Severe, aka a gigantic penalty to our Sealing that makes us mere low Jounin at it! Claiming to be better than Orochimaru with that has zero substance to it and would just make us look extremely arrogant. Its a footnote.
But we have results to show! They are called 3D Sealing, and Hazou even explicitly muses in the chapter that revealing that would massively change Itachi's appraisal of our importance and lend our words a lot more weight.
If we plan to go with Akatsuki, then we literally won't be able to do any work on Lithosealing without revealing it, so there is no reason to hide it, like, at all, because we want Necromancy to succeed and we didn't spend the entire quest working towards Primordial Sealing to never use it for fear of it being found out by a group we are actively cooperating with to save the goddamn world.
"Actually we're an S-rank Sealmaster in disguise via bloodline, except no other Kurosawa is and somehow we have no results to show with Project Necromancy despite working it for so long" is not a stellar pitch. Itachi is unlikely to care or even understand the significance of our bloodline, which is meagre all things considered - he is not a Sealmaster and our lacking results speak for themselves from his point of view. We cannot even prove our "S-rank Skills" if we needed to since we currently have a Severe, aka a gigantic penalty to our Sealing that makes us mere low Jounin at it! Claiming to be better than Orochimaru with that has zero substance to it and would just make us look extremely arrogant. Its a footnote.
But we have results to show! They are called 3D Sealing, and Hazou even explicitly muses in the chapter that revealing that would massively change Itachi's appraisal of our importance and lend our words a lot more weight.
If we plan to go with Akatsuki, then we literally won't be able to do any work on Lithosealing without revealing it, so there is no reason to hide it, like, at all, because we want Necromancy to succeed and we didn't spend the entire quest working towards Primordial Sealing to never use it for fear of it being found out by a group we are actively cooperating with to save the goddamn world.
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- Location
- America
[] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
It's so frustrating trying to find the contents of plans. I'm on mobile and copying and searching for the name of each plan is too much for me. I give up. I voted.
Edit: votes removed in favor of a different plan
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Have an Akatsuki plan:
[x] Action Plan: Doing What is Actually Required to Win
[x] Action Plan: Doing What is Actually Required to Win
- Hey, you know who would be super useful for the Dragonwar? Fucking everyone who's died in the last few years. Seriously. Forget just Jiraiya, try Hiruzen, Nagato, Shikaku, Kakashi, Gai, etc. Even Hiashi, if we can find a way to get him on the seventh path (which, via lithosealing, might even be possible without a scroll).
- Going back even further beyond just the recent waves of deaths, how fast would this go if we could ressurect all the villages' dead S-rankers and senior researchers of the last century?
- What does the outcome of the constant onslaught of apocalypses look like with versus without functioning necromancy?
- Answer Itachi: you'll join.
- But forget being Sasori's "assisstant". When you're not half-dead, you're probably a better sealmaster than he is, and will gladly prove it once recovered. You'll be equal partners.
- Under Itachi's supervision, write letters to the clan, and to Tsunade, explaining the situation. Request that she hold off on branding you a traitor for a little while so that we can make our effort to bring Jiraiya back without the price of our decision harming the Gouketsu. Ultimately, leaving now with Itachi is a choice made in the belief that this is the best way to protect Leaf from certain doom.
- Leave the village, hopefully to, some day soon, return surrounded by its dead heroes.
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- Location
- Washington, USA
[X] Action Plan: AMITY Ascendant
If she successfully brokered a deal which gets him Hazo's full, unconflicted support in resurrecting Pain, that might qualify.
[] I Hits A Bits
That certainly is a plan.
That certainly is a plan.
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