Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

roobee · Dec 4, 2022

Veedrac said:
We can then still check the effect, but it would be more finite in size since the air supply is limited

heads up could cause cave to collapse. may want seed idea in hazou since medieval people maybe not know gas liquid volume difference.

Veedrac said:
There are safer tests we could have started with

another idea is L shaped tunnel underground. Cast EM at end of L so very little air. Then escape via to the side and up the L.

coldcutconvict said:
Yes. Mistake out of habit.

can you remove it then?

edit:

FaintlySorcerous said:
Your communicating those shared beliefs to her would, in our opinion, help her.

worried that asuma will just try to manipulate akane into being fine with using the nuke

i haven't seen much discussion on whether we should repeat the nuke or not. given the stakes i think we need more time for deciding that.
[x] interlude

also just to get it out there. although i'd prefer a delay over refusing right now.
[x] Action Plan: Defiance
ask to talk to asuma privately. no ANBU.
then politely refuse to repeat the nuke. the OPSEC risk is too high. may change mind in future but doing it so soon is too rushed and gives little time to make sure is correct.

edit2:
since faintly's plan seems popular. removed obeying asuma's orders and mentining akane would never disobey orders from his
[X] Action Plan: Heart to Heart, No Nuke

Asuma
- Tone:
  - Not making threats, policy suggestions, threatening antagonism if Asuma doesn't do as we ask.
  - Generally, staying in our lane.
- Request a private moment - Akane waits outside/returns home.
- We want to discuss Akane's well-being. Forgive us if we take a moment to set the groundwork.
- Destroying that Rock village almost broke Akane.
- Causing mass death of relatively innocent people goes beyond agony for her.
  - Civilians are civilians - they have no choices and Fire civilians are Fire civilians due to luck, not inherent superiority.
    - She's seen us - former Mist nin - adopt the Will of Fire. (Subtext: ninja also have little choice where they're born etc.) She understands that the Will of Fire can burn in all hearts, and that it's a tragedy whenever someone perishes without having had a chance to have that fire lit.
  - Tone: Akane values all life because of her devotion to the Will of Fire.
- We understand that you must protect the Will of Fire and the people who carry it as your first priority.
- But we know that you, too, have seen that every person can have the Will of Fire kindled in them.
  - The Will of Fire is the only path forward. It's what's behind AMITY. It's what saved the world from Pain.
  - It, and nothing else, is what brings us closer and closer to a good world. It's why Leaf is so special. Uplift is a facet of the Will of Fire. All good things are.
- We are legitimately worried for her safety and sanity.
  - Your communicating those shared beliefs to her would, in our opinion, help her.
- We apologize, again, for our foolishness.
- Thank him for his time and consideration.
- Go home. Offer Akane comfort and space.

edit3:
my main concern with @Veedrac plan. is if repeating fails will asuma still help prevent isan proliferation? i'm gonna go on a limb and tentatively say yes despite what asuma said
[X] Action Plan: The best time to keep trying is right now

edit4:
also can someone figure out the expected range of ocean attacks (tsunami etc) from EM? if it's likely to harm the shore, especially if it looks like an anomaly, that makes me much more against repeating the nuke

RandomOTP · Dec 4, 2022

coldcutconvict said:
Uh, did she happen to go warming up small settlements last winter?

Not small settlements, but back during the Collapse, she went around casting EM to warm up various tents and temporary buildings on our estate while the Goketsu were putting up more permanent structures. So most estate ninja and civilians (who have been living on the estate since then) would know about EM.

Also, if Akane ever went on joint-clan missions during the winter, they probably know about EM. It seems in-character for Akane to cast it for warmth while out on the field, to ensure that no one gets too cold.

eaglejarl · Dec 4, 2022

MrRobot said:
I mean, honestly i just wonder what people expected, akane was the worst person to have this power.

There are worse people to hold apocalyptic power than someone with a strong moral compass and a compassionate nature.

Lysbeth Succubus said:
Can we use EM to take over a previous EM?

No.

Velorien said:
faflec said:

[X] Armageddon Initiative
[kill everyone, then suicide]

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I literally cannot conceive of a plan that it is less appropriate to call Armageddon Initiative.

We attack Honoka with hummus.

roobee said:
if we marry ino first would reduce my concerns of ino's feelings changing

I guarantee you that marriage does not prevent feelings about a partner from changing. Source: my ex-wife

faflec said:
Also pinging @Velorien @Paperclipped Can we have this threadmarked and/or put into the jutsu docs? I know Wind Shaper is already in there but the others do not appear to be.

Done.

Veedrac said:
probably it was doing something like turning the atmosphere into the liquid somehow'

Or, alternatively, "look at that weird chakra construct that froze everything around it before disappearing the way chakra constructs do."

coldcutconvict said:
Were gs recorded manually?

They were, yes.

roobee · Dec 4, 2022

eaglejarl said:
I guarantee you that marriage does not prevent feelings about a partner from changing. Source: my ex-wife

i meant more the effects of feelings changing. if married then even if feelings change you will probably still be pro-social. maybe marriage is different in ninja culture, but since it entails dual-clan membership and clan secrets sharing. i still think they will stay pro-social.

Rafin · Dec 4, 2022

Oneiros said:
We go to the lake people and negotiate a trade. We give them the monkey scroll after they help us find the Squirrel Scroll. I would have suggested just that but Ruri becoming the Condor Summoner after Leaf murdered the previous summoner suggest their might be some latitude

I completely missed that from your post. I somehow read the "or" as an "and". Twice.

Lysbeth Succubus · Dec 4, 2022

eaglejarl said:
There are worse people to hold apocalyptic power than someone with a strong moral compass and a compassionate nature.

The gentler the soul, the harder they break. I for one welcome our terrifying death overlady, mistress of the cold flames of eternal youth.

MrRobot · Dec 4, 2022

eaglejarl said:
There are worse people to hold apocalyptic power than someone with a strong moral compass and a compassionate nature.

Not for Akane unfortunately and as far as a player centered morality goes that is more important.

RandomOTP · Dec 4, 2022

MrRobot said:
Not for Akane unfortunately and as far as a player centered morality goes that is more important.

To be fair: we didn't expect our first test to be that successful.

Halberdier · Dec 4, 2022

[x] Action Plan: Operation Obsolete Mastery

RandomOTP · Dec 4, 2022

[x] Action Plan: Operation Obsolete Mastery

eaglejarl · Dec 4, 2022

Veedrac said:
I've been mentioning on Discord how we should have been testing [underground] in the first place.

Sealmasters are generally very reluctant to test underground because of the restricted avenues of escape and the potential for cave-ins.

MrRobot · Dec 4, 2022

RandomOTP said:
To be fair: we didn't expect our first test to be that successful.

Random... The name of the technique was "nuke" even in the theory its nature was an indiscriminate weapon of mass destruction. And since the fire incident anything that would screw up a block would be enough to set akane off.
I will not sit here and be bettier or smug because i learned my lesson with this tread. I will trough draw attention to what should be Hazō's priority because akane have 7 TYS now, we should treat her like we are treating pre self actualization Kei otherwise is another social kaiju that i would had seen it comming.
And trust me being Cassandra is not fun.

roobee · Dec 4, 2022

for the plans that have us obey asuma's orders. may be worth mentioning that we are only relaying asuma's orders to repeat the nuke, and are not ourselves ordering akane to do it. although i'd expect hazoupilot to do that anyway.

cog-nito · Dec 4, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
We need to have a talk with Akane once she's put herself back together a little bit where we lay out very clearly that our intention is to speedrun Jiraiya's resurrection, then speedrun S-rank, then shatter the world and put it back together in a way that isn't so broken. We can explain how these additional resources and FOOM mean that we can do so all the quicker, how the defeat of the Dragons can unite the Paths and push us further towards our goals, and how this is not some pie-in-the-sky bullshit, it's legitimately possible.

And then we swear to her that we will do so before EM is ever, ever deployed, that we will keep safe the world and all its people. And then we ask her to join us.

She isn't in a place to hear that right now, though. We can have the talk above standing over some anonymous patch of ocean away from the prying ears of the ANBU. So this might help, and @Velorien might have fun writing it: I think there's room for some Badass Creed moments.

[X] Action Plan: Heart to Heart
Word count: <300

Asuma

Tone:

Not making threats, policy suggestions, threatening antagonism if Asuma doesn't do as we ask.

Generally, staying in our lane.

Request a private moment - Akane waits outside/returns home.

We want to discuss Akane's well-being. Forgive us if we take a moment to set the groundwork.

Destroying that Rock village almost broke Akane. She would never disobey orders, but it did.

Causing mass death of relatively innocent people goes beyond agony for her.

Civilians are civilians - they have no choices and Fire civilians are Fire civilians due to luck, not inherent superiority.

She's seen us - former Mist nin - adopt the Will of Fire. (Subtext: ninja also have little choice where they're born etc.) She understands that the Will of Fire can burn in all hearts, and that it's a tragedy whenever someone perishes without having had a chance to have that fire lit.

Tone: Akane values all life because of her devotion to the Will of Fire.

We understand that you must protect the Will of Fire and the people who carry it as your first priority.

But we know that you, too, have seen that every person can have the Will of Fire kindled in them.

The Will of Fire is the only path forward. It's what's behind AMITY. It's what saved the world from Pain.

It, and nothing else, is what brings us closer and closer to a good world. It's why Leaf is so special. Uplift is a facet of the Will of Fire. All good things are.

We are legitimately worried for her safety and sanity.

Your communicating those shared beliefs to her would, in our opinion, help her.

We apologize, again, for our foolishness.

Thank him for his time and consideration.

Go home. Obey Asuma's orders. Offer Akane comfort and space.

Asuma said that the mission is either tommorow or the day after depending on when the storm clears.

So we don't actually have to ask him for extra time to console Akane when it's still in the afternoon, it's really necessary to ask him for extra time here.

RandomOTP · Dec 4, 2022

Velorien said:
While Hazō was still processing this, she moved back and gave a traditional Ami smirk. "Look at me, being all treasonous. It's lucky ANBU's been left so understaffed and I am—depressingly—one of Leaf's more experienced jōnin. So treason away, Hazō! You're safe from everyone but me while I'm around."

I wonder if we can get Ami's help, somehow? While we're gone on this multi-week mission with Asuma, we can sic Mari on the Shimura Clan while Ami works to move KEI to help us keep our estate?

Veedrac · Dec 4, 2022

eaglejarl said:
Sealmasters are generally very reluctant to test underground because of the restricted avenues of escape and the potential for cave-ins.

Only the Shadow Clone would be underground. A cave-in and loss of the caster is expected.

eaglejarl said:
Or, alternatively, "look at that weird chakra construct that froze everything around it before disappearing the way chakra constructs do."

I have been failing to figure out what you mean by this. Are you saying they can't do the experiment?

roobee said:
my main concern with @Veedrac plan. is if repeating fails will asuma still help prevent isan proliferation? i'm gonna go on a limb and tentatively say yes despite what asuma said

This concern seems plausible, but I think Asuma is much less likely to do a Uchiha Incident on them if he can't prove the danger is replicable.

RandomOTP · Dec 4, 2022

[x] Action Plan: Social Spec Jonin will Save Our Home
Words: tbd

Tell Mari and Ami a censored version of what happened, under high opsec conditions. Let them read between the lines. Be obvious in what you do and do not say. Please help us keep the estate.
- We can buy the deed from the Shimura Clan with farming land (Pangolins + Fertility jutsu), money, a sanitized version of Orochimaru's Notes, our own research notes from some unique seals (chakdar v1, for example), a portion of the Goketsu profits from the Summoning Trade Network for a period of time, etc.
Kei: We did a thing, and we're not allowed to talk about it. But Akane needs our help.
Console Akane with Kei. If Akane is discomforted by Hazou's presence, then give her space.
Go on Asuma's mission.

faflec · Dec 4, 2022

Query: Why do we care so much about keeping the estate?

RandomOTP · Dec 4, 2022

faflec said:
Query: Why do we care so much about keeping the estate?

It's the principle of the thing, in my mind. It's our home. We've made it ours. It's also home to all of our projects. Aquifer, Sanitation, Beautification, etc. It would also be a pain to relocate all of our civilians (which the Goketsu have many of... several hundred to a thousand, iirc).

CommunismWillWin · Dec 4, 2022

RandomOTP said:
I wonder if we can get Ami's help, somehow? While we're gone on this multi-week mission with Asuma, we can sic Mari on the Shimura Clan while Ami works to move KEI to help us keep our estate?

Asuma pulled the Shimura stuff out of his ass during our meeting with him. It is made up, and even if it's not, he wasn't going to ask us to move if not for the EM stuff. The Hokage wants us to be within the village. If we don't want to leave our current compound, I'd say our best shot is to just to ask him if we can stay there. Going around behind his back, the very thing he has asked us not to do, repeatedly, to try to keep it, is just going to antagonize him.

cog-nito · Dec 4, 2022

RandomOTP said:
It's the principle of the thing, in my mind. It's our home. We've made it ours. It's also home to all of our projects. Aquifer, Sanitation, Beautification, etc. It would also be a pain to relocate all of our civilians (which the Goketsu have many of... several hundred to a thousand, iirc).

Okay yeah but the new Clan compound we would be getting in exchange would be objectively better tho.

Also with Hazou's ES being level 40 it won't take all that long at all to get the new compound up to snuff.

Veedrac · Dec 4, 2022

The plan has been (fairly continuously) updated to fix minor clarity errors and strengthen edge-case handling.

The vote is tight and I have words to spare, so if there is anything that would sway a vote here, or even just where the phrasing is poor, please mention it.

Veedrac said:
Word count < 300

[X] Action Plan: The best time to keep trying is right now

Suggest to Asuma:

Let's investigate the current event before making concrete plans for after

Waiting also makes it harder to deduce Leaf is the source

Observations:

Solid matter, although scattered, does not seem to have been destroyed. The debris is still around.

The liquid is additional, and turns back into air

Send someone to get some

Bubbles underwater or fills waterskin or balloon

Collected result looks like air

Thus plausibly the jutsu transformed the air into the liquid

There are safer tests we could have started with, given foreknowledge, which still make sense and help OPSEC

It is possible to cast this in an deep underground, sealed cave. This has lots of advantages:

Primes above surface are shielded by ground

It could be limited in size since the air supply is limited

Worst-case is probably surface disruption that's less similar to original, which helps OPSEC

We can cast eg. in southern Iron, to make the mission faster

It's harder for others to observe underground than observe even fairly long distances at sea

Eg. ice could wash ashore

Other options to limit the jutsu:

Cast deep underwater

Ask Asuma how to make a zone of air under the ocean

In a deep well with a free connection to the surface

Limits the access to air, and can colapse if it goes nuke

Cast inside an airtight 5SB zone

Pre-check for airtightness

Pre-check if it survives being filled with liquid from the original

Then do that

Out of character context for why you should vote:

Asuma is trying to check whether the nuke is a fluke or a reliable attack. I think it might be possible to make it seem like a fluke, without much downside, by using the fact that Elemental Mastery only just went nuke because it was a cold day, and it probably won't in warmer circumstances.

1. This plan is an extremely believable story, in that I was literally making these suggestions a long time ago without ulterior motive, and have been repeating them recently. Hazō should be able to make these suggestions sincerely.

2. Temperature goes up as you go down into the ground. Akane's Elemental Mastery only just managed to go nuke, so there's a good shot this second attempt doesn't do the thing if we go somewhere warm. Underground tends to be warm.

I don't think this solves the problem, or is particularly robust, but, you know, let's keep trying. Now isn't the time to give up.

cog-nito · Dec 4, 2022

[x] Action Plan: The best time to keep trying is right now

faflec · Dec 4, 2022

Veedrac said:
The plan has been (fairly continuously) updated to fix minor clarity errors and strengthen edge-case handling.

The vote is tight and I have words to spare, so if there is anything that would sway a vote here, or even just where the phrasing is poor, please mention it.

Sorry it took me so long to reply, but I'm still having trouble with your reply:

Veedrac said:
They still know bubbles are made of air, in their nebulous informal sense. They also still know about phase transitions, again in their nebulous informal sense. They can collect the gas in a container and see that it looks and feels a lot like air. I'm honestly not sure what you're confused about here.

The only conclusion needs to be 'when the atmosphere was getting pulled into the jutsu and the liquid was coming out, probably it was doing something like turning the atmosphere into the liquid somehow'. I don't particularly care if they are entirely wrong about how that works, and assume it's some random weird thing that it's not.

In particular, I don't see how Hazou and co know that bubbles are made of air, or that they know about phase transitions. These things do not seem intuitive to me.

eaglejarl said:
Or, alternatively, "look at that weird chakra construct that froze everything around it before disappearing the way chakra constructs do."

Relatedly, this. I think what eaglejarl means is that Hazou and co could also observe the appearance and disappearance of the liquid and conclude that it was a property of the technique that was previously not discovered. @eaglejarl Yell at me if I'm interpreting you wrong.

CommunismWillWin · Dec 4, 2022

faflec said:
In particular, I don't see how Hazou and co know that bubbles are made of air

There is no way a Mist nin has never exhaled underwater. They've likely farted in the bathtub, too.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

In doubt there's always the Sun!

In doubt there's always the Sun!