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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Shrooms said:
Well, we probably ought to make SC 40 Hazou's next purchase then. 43 XP away, so it kinda lines up with him recovering from injury
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That's exactly what I've been advocating.
_The_Bomb said:
Fortunately, most of the charecters are already at the point where it would be smart to switch to a training plan that does not require Noburi to provide chakra for shadow clones. @Paperclipped designed each of his plans to come with a "No-Buri" variant where the charecter slowly raises their CR alongside their clone usage. I have been arguing for Hazō to take this approach on its own merits (higher chakra reserves being a good thing for a lot of reasons), but now that we have major OPSEC concerns I feel it is a no brainer.

This DOES NOT slow down FOOMing more than a very small amount. For Hazō, it would take him 2 years 5 months to get to the point where he is a kage-level sealer that can survive and escape from an ambush by a hostile jōnin instead of 2 years and 3 months. Yes, it only adds two months. For Kei, it's even less of an impact. It would take her 3 years to reach the her fourth detour instead of 2 years 11 months. Akane likewise is barely affected, taking 2 years to become a terrifying combat monster instead of 1 year 11 months.

I strongly encourage everyone to take a look at the specifics in the spreadsheets linked below. Paper did a really good job with them and they are totally understandable even to people with very minimal spreadsheet experience such as myself. I pulled these numbers straight from there.
Resolve Grinding (Hazō)
Resolve Grinding (Akane)
Resolve Grinding (Kei)
The specific paths I looked at were the Akane(with Buffs)/Akane(Buffs + No-Buri), Kei(with Buffs)/Kei(Buffs + No-Buri), and Hazō(Survivable Sealmaster)/Hazō(Survivable Sealmaster + No-Buri), as they were the ones I considered to be our best paths forward.

TL;DR We already have a great way to drastically reduce Hazō, Kei, and Akane's chakra consumption for FOOM training by slowly raising their CR as they increase their SC usage. It barely slows down FOOM and comes with the added benefit of giving everyone higher chakra reserves (very nice to have in combat and required to unlock goodies such as Sage Mode and possibly jōnin auras).
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Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on Dec 8, 2021 at 1:36 PM, finished with 310 posts and 20 votes.
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Voting is belatedly closed.
 
Velorien said:
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on Dec 8, 2021 at 1:36 PM, finished with 310 posts and 20 votes.
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Voting is belatedly closed.
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Faflec is massively screaming.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
I think you have a reasonable number of good ideas and that there is at least some merit to your claims that you're ignored. I think it would be of net benefit to everyone if your ideas were given more space. I also understand that you're going through it.

But.
  1. You posted that three (maybe four, now that I'm done writing this) hours ago. Given the timescales of forums, I hardly think that qualifies as 'absolute silence'.
  2. I am personally pretty sure that I've engaged with the idea previously - specifically, I think it's pretty much a nonstarter - so it doesn't make sense for me to repeat my engagement - I assume you read it the first time, and it didn't seem to move your needle. (If I didn't lay my objections out clearly the first time, I do so now, below.) A lot of the things that you say are things that you've said several times. This is fine, and a natural consequence of not feeling heard, but I'm personally not going to respond to the same ideas over and over when there are either irreconcilable differences or the author of the ideas didn't engage with my engagement. I don't, personally, feel like you're great at taking feedback and incorporating it. Again, that's fine. Some of it is probably that you think my ideas are wrong and you justifiably ignore them. Some of it is probably just that we don't gel on an interpersonal level so what you mean to communicate as taking the feedback doesn't come across to me as taking the feedback, or what I mean to communicate as helpful feedback reads as either unrelated babbling or insulting your haircut. But even accounting for that, I'm hard-pressed to think of times that I've felt that engaging with your ideas was a good use of my limited brainpower, and that doesn't make me want to do it more.
  3. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a portion of the thread has you blocked or ignores you because they find engaging with you tiring. If you want more engagement, then you need to be willing to change the way you engage with folks - or if you aren't willing to do that, at least own that you're a significant chunk of this problem. Or if you truly do think that the issue lies strictly with other people, then I want to let you know that if you're trying to change how I interact with/perceive you, I think you need to adjust your approach.
  4. 'Nobody ever listens to me' is hyperbolic in an off-putting manner. I responded pretty thoroughly to your idea about burning the Hagomoro down over the wedding. I don't know what you call that if not 'listening', unless you're using the term interchangably with 'agreement', in which case I don't think you'll ever be satisfied. While I doubt it was your intention, it is downright discouraging to have time and energy I spent engaging with you seemingly ignored.
  5. People listen to plans, especially when the plans pass a threshold of coherency and reasonability (I'm confident you can qualify on both fronts) and the authors of the plans are responsive to suggestions and criticism. You have tools at your disposal which would dramatically increase the odds that people listen to you and seriously engage with your ideas. If you don't want to write a plan, personally, the leading plans have plenty of wordcount remaining and you could propose wording for your ideas. I know that I'm generally likelier to add something to my plans when someone makes it easy for me.
  6. Part of the reason I talk to folks on here is to win their hearts and minds so they'll vote for things I want them to vote for. You have made it very clear that you don't vote. Your reasons are your own, you're entitled to them, but there is objectively less ROI on spending time talking to you than there is talking to other people. This, too, is something well within your power to change.
To engage with your idea:

My understanding is that a significant chunk of the reason that you want an exchange program is because having multiple chakra barrel users in Leaf would be very useful. I agree with this. I don't think that an exchange program would actually enable this, or if it did pan out, it would lead to war or a substantial deterioration of relations with Mist immediately.

Here's a hypothetical: Naruto is friends with Gaara and they decide that in the interests of improving Leaf-Sand relations we should do an exchange program. We send a mix of clan and non-clan kids. There happens to be a Hyuuga in the mix. One day, one of her teachers in Sand shows her a blank wall and asks her to describe what she sees behind it. Why, writing! She faithfully relays it - some sort of riddle? - and thinks little more of it. After all, it was a trivial use of her abilities.

That riddle was left by the first Kazekage. Sand solves it and uncovers a massive cache of scrolls, puppets, and other resources. Sand is now suddenly much, much more powerful. They pull off a dozen or so pretty slick operations.

Leaf finds out that they used the not-even-a-genin Hyuuga this way. Leaf wasn't cut in on the profits despite the fact that Sand literally could not have read that riddle any other way (because it was trapped and sealed and other bullshit, x-ray vision was literally the only way to read it). If Sand had asked us for help with this, we probably would have said no, or if we'd have said yes, we'd have negotiated, but they robbed us of our ability to decline or negotiate.

If we used the kids to shuffle chakra around, and it got back to Mist (and it would, those kids will be thoroughly debriefed) we can be pretty sure we'd never send anyone over there again on a student exchange program. Likelier, I think, is that during the negotiations of the exchange program, anyone sent over would be sent over with minders who would be pretty firm on what they could and couldn't do. The use of bloodline abilities to provide assistance to the host village would simply not be allowed, or there would be a heavy, heavy price.

I feel that textual citations support my analysis. There is one way and one way only to enact a scheme which strictly requires the services of a bloodline and that's to go through their clan head. (I'm discounting kidnapping etc.)

I really and truly want to engage with you and your ideas more frequently on an ongoing basis. I do. Right now, the prospect of doing so makes me feel tired. A lot of that is on me, but not all of it. Meet me partway.
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Paperclipped said:
Because the specific model needs a name, and this makes Hazou recognize the civilian work that went into the skyslider.


Sure, updated to Team Uplift.


Would rather not say it as-is -- I think it feels far too power-grabby. There's probably a phrasing of this that works for me, but I'm too tired to figure it out.



Since we're doing Dogs next update, and we're not passing any time in this update, it seems fine to do this next one around?


If you think that this scene is a date with Snowflake... I think it may be a bad idea to go on dates with other people without seeking permission from your current partners, or at least deciding on norms about going on dates with other people.


The plan doesn't timeskip. I'll add the following disclaimer above the plan:

"As was demonstrated by Noumero's eloquently named plan "This Plan Tries to Kill Ami by Feeding Her to a Sky Squid", plan names are not content. This plan was originally written when I wanted to Finish the Damn Consequence, but pushback convinced me not to do it, and I figured that it wasn't core enough to the plan to continue. The name persists, but the plan does not make any attempt at timeskipping."


This is a monumental achievement and deserves celebration. The plan does not treat this celebration as the end of the project, but rather treats it as the first of many steps.


Then Asuma says "No." Or at worst, "No, I'm too busy." It's over in three seconds, tops. He's not going to execute us over it, it's not even really going to burn any sort of credit tbh.


Good idea, added.


No longer time-skipping. I'll even remove the intended timeframe line so that it doesn't remotely appear like it passes any time.


Yes -- but the team also decided what to name it on their own and came up with "Hazoulator" -- so I think we may as well take executive action in deciding the name for the model. If we want, we can name future models after other members of the founding team.


Skywalkers are probably straight-up better for aerial combat because ninja speed in combat is faster than over range. Pack-and-transport is good... but I'm not even sure how well modern hang gliders fold up into less than 1m of space.


Updated it to say testing off of skytowers. Also updated to say use Shadow Clones.


I don't think it's a good idea. Why would Mist send Academy students to Leaf? Why would Leaf send Academy students to Mist?


Added this line as well.

Also, stole the investigate non-paper-and-ink stuff from @Shrooms 's plan, though I wonder if Hazou has the spare time to do so. May as well try it, I suppose? Kid clearly doesn't sleep.

Updates:
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Now? Not much, although I'll note that Wakahisa can travel strategic distances faster than standard ninja, including over water, due to constant chakra boost. Back when I first proposed it when Ren knew that the only hope of her nation remaining a major power was an alliance with Leaf and there was a clan-head-trained elite jounin who we could have secured at least the possibility of a visit during a time of dire need as a Hokage took the hat who had in no uncertain terms been described to us as somebody who was going to kill us all and exacerbate the imminent world war if only somebody had bothered to listen to me. Yes, she would have taken any unexpected way to build camaraderie without alerting the sharks using the existing intervillage trade relationship between clans.

I'm working on it. Honestly, I understand that I have a problem, but fixing it and unlearning ancient habits takes time.
 
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Lailoken said:
Now? Not much, although I'll note that Wakahisa can travel strategic distances faster than standard ninja, including over water, due to constant chakra boost.
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I'm not convinced this is viable. They would be spending hundreds of chakra per minute even at low boost.

Lailoken said:
Back when I first proposed it when Ren knew that the only hope of her nation remaining a major power was an alliance with Leaf and there was a clan-head-trained elite jounin who we could have secured at least the possibility of a visit during a time of dire need as a Hokage took the hat who had in no uncertain terms been described to us as somebody who was going to kill is and exacerbate the imminent world war if only somebody had bothered to listen to me.
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I can't parse this sentence due to its length.
 
Lailoken said:
Now? Not much, although I'll note that Wakahisa can travel strategic distances faster than standard ninja, including over water, due to constant chakra boost. Back when I first proposed it when Ren knew that the only hope of her nation remaining a major power was an alliance with Leaf and there was a clan-head-trained elite jounin who we could have secured at least the possibility of a visit during a time of dire need as a Hokage took the hat who had in no uncertain terms been described to us as somebody who was going to kill us all and exacerbate the imminent world war if only somebody had bothered to listen to me. Yes, she would have taken any unexpected way to build camaraderie without alerting the sharks using the existing intervillage trade relationship between clans.

I'm working on it. Honestly, I understand that I have a problem, but fixing it and unlearning ancient habits takes time.
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Honestly taking over Mist is pretty straight forward. We know that they are pretty fucked on fire power since they lost so many ninja against Hiruzen and co and then in the battle against Akatsuki. We know that frankly that our generation mostly sucks since none of them managed to make it to the finales of the chunnin exam even with the deck stacked in their favor. Ami is isolated and is actively opposing Ren. We know that the Kurosawa are facing a succession crisis right now. Hazou and co are already on track to become S-Rank even before you consider FOOM. We just convince Asuma to let us get named as the clan heir to Ren and set ourselves up to become the next Mizukage. Thus we bind Leaf and Mist together
 
Velorien said:
I'm not convinced this is viable. They would be spending hundreds of chakra per minute even at low boost.

I can't parse this sentence due to its length.
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Wakahisa can chakra boost for extended periods, especially while water-walking where they can constantly refill.

Ren is a compromise between the sharks and the whales. She needs to look like she is appeasing the sharks, but she understands that her nation's survival depends on an alliance with Leaf. Something outside-the-box to build international camaraderie and even undermine the sharks by exposing their next generation to foreign cultures while being something so new that it wouldn't trigger the sharks into realizing what is happening would speak to her, especially if it were administered by her sister and nephew under the auspice of one of the richest clans in her nation with prior ties. She's from the diplomat clan. She knows how to thread the needle.
 
Wait, then why does having Noburi with the party make them travel faster at all? Do they use little mini-boosts like Mario Kart drifting?
 
Shrooms said:
Wait, then why does having Noburi with the party make them travel faster at all? Do they use little mini-boosts like Mario Kart drifting?
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Chakra boost is for when you need to move superhumanly fast for a few seconds. Long distance running is about stamina. It hasn't been listed as an explicit part of the bloodline/general mechanics, but we've been operating on the assumption that regular chakra infusions can extend stamina for a while.
 
It's possible that there's more than one kind of boost. Enhancing your stamina with chakra costs only a few CP per minute but it doesn't help in combat whatsoever, since ninja combat rarely runs as long as 30 seconds. That stamina chakra boosting works out to a slow drain over the day that the Wakahisa alleviate by giving you 2x the chakra pool to spend. But it's not nearly so intense as combat boosting.

Edit: 🥷 by EJ
 
MMKII said:
Be a helping hand in this time of uncertainty.
  • Reach out to clans we have difficulties with to mend fences (Hyuga, Inuzuka), and get goodwill among independent clans (Sarutobi, Aburame). Continue outreach towards allied clans (Hagoromo, ISC,Minami). Start with those hit hardest (Hagoromo, Hyuga, Inuzuka, ISC...)
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Guys remember how the Hagoromo used to be our allies?
 
_The_Bomb said:
Guys remember how the Hagoromo used to be our allies?
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Lailoken said:
Remember when where went to hells length to be friends with them and they absolutely insists on pulling the trumpet off the wall to play the song of hate and pain at every opportunity?
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eaglejarl said:
"Status is largely unknown at the moment." Shikamaru paused and swallowed, then cleared his throat before continuing. "Byakugan users are spread through all the various sites, helping us search for survivors. Thus far we have found none, although a large number of bodies have been located. Identification and recovery are ongoing. My mother's body has been recovered, as have the bodies of the Hagoromo Clan Head and the Hokage."
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Ritsuo took over after this point.
 
faflec said:
Ritsuo took over after this point.
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I wonder if the original clan head was actually a true believer and would be horrified by what Brother Jed has done with the clan.

There was murmurs about a growing fanaticism within the clan before his death. How much do you want to bet that Ritsuo was a ringleader of that?
 
_The_Bomb said:
I wonder if the original clan head was actually a true believer and would be horrified by what Brother Jed has done with the clan.

There was murmurs about a growing fanaticism within the clan before his death. How much do you want to bet that Ritsuo was a ringleader of that?
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With further offense against Ritsuo, the further the fanaticism grows. The more likely he will become a ticking bomb for the hokage.
 
_The_Bomb said:
I wonder if the original clan head was actually a true believer and would be horrified by what Brother Jed has done with the clan.

There was murmurs about a growing fanaticism within the clan before his death. How much do you want to bet that Ritsuo was a ringleader of that?
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Don't forget that Hephaestus was the one who crafted Zeus's bolts. Cross the wrong line and thunder will rain (reign).


Kiba said:
With further offense against Ritsuo, the further the fanaticism grows. The more likely he will become a ticking bomb for the hokage.
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See above. We've stared down all the Sanin as well as Itachi and Hidan multiple times. He decides to cross us at
his own peril.
 
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Lailoken said:
Don't forget that Hephaestus was the one who crafted Zeus's bolts. Cross the wrong line and thunder will rain (reign).



See above. We've stared down all the Sanin as well as Itachi and Hidan multiple times. He decides to cross us at
his own peril.
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We have more important and greater concern than the small fry that is Hag head with constipation issues of his own making.
 
Velorien said:
Mari could by no means be permitted to bear that guilt if she were to ever escape the unknown dark abyss (dizziness, nausea, a fracturing mind saved only by the edge of a kimono sleeve) that she had inexplicably fallen into.
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Oh hey. We got hints of a future Mari fracture as early as Chapter 302. Probably even earlier as well. I wonder where the italicized portion came from.
 
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