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I think the Bijou makes the check for him. I'm personally down for stealing one for Hazou but the thread at large isn't so shrugs
For what it's worth...

In the next few months, the bijuu should be reforming. I don't know what level of sealing is necessary to seal them, but considering that every major nation has one, I cannot expect for them to require Jiraiya-level sealing. It's possible that we could do that ourselves.
 
On the other hand, not holding all of the characters to the same standards as our PC's makes expanding our manpower economies of scale functionally impossible. There will always be a wall between our chosen ones and frankly effectively lesser beings: they can't help what they are through no fault of their own. This in turn incentivizes players to focus more on the PC's and only the PC's because there will be a better return on effort investment for doing so
I don't understand why you believe this, or what this wall might be. Please explain?

Regression to the mean says that varying XP awards over a long time is the same as an average award over that same time.

the timeline for even one generation of FOOM soldiers not a part of our initial team will take twenty years.
Why 20 years? 20 years is a long career for a ninja. Wouldn't 5 years be sufficient for chūnin and high genin, and 10 years even for new Academy graduates?
 
I don't plan on making any more comments on why I think giving up FOOM is a bad idea. It has became clear that there are vast gulfs between how @Dictator4Hire and ourselves see the situation. Since we have different risk priors and goals for the quest no longer feels like a subject where progress can be made
 
@Dictator4Hire at the end of the day, as far as i'm concerned, the biggest problem is that you didn't really...sold me on the idea? You propose these complicated ways to bring Asuma on our side and share SCs with a myriad of failure points and all this careful negotiation that if goes wrong ends in catastrophic conseguences, Uplift ending ones....or we can keep going as we're doing now that doing that after, without all those points of failure?
I mean, what is the cost-benefit analysis? Or it's a "I would like to give FOOM for the story it would create/I like the idea/ect and think it wouldn't damage us"? A moral point of view of "We need to share things/help Leaf"? From my POV is basically "Keep FOOM Hidden: All benefits of keeping FOOM hidden plus all the other benefits once we're strong enough" and "Reveal FOOM: Some potential benefit and a lot of risk". I simply see it as unnecessary idea considering the situation, therefore adding posts on "How it could possible if we move in this particular way" doesn't really help the core problem i have with the plan.
 
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If we time skip can we ask Asuma to help pay for a dog to travel to toad country so we can participate in the zoo rushes going forward?
 
It is very unlikely for Asuma to be uplift-aligned enough that he would be safe to give FOOM to, no matter how much he keeps admitting that Hazo was right all along. There's also evidence of Asuma professing a great deal of hatred for his enemies that would prove problematic in an Uplift context, and that takes work to remove.

A movement would be more narratively satisfying than having Hazou become effectively a Messiah. No chosen ones but choosing our own destiny and teaching others to do so as well seems more accurate to the tone and the themes of what this quest has become, to me at least. I won't hold it against you if you still disagree; I just wanted to clarify my stance.

Messiah is not needed for Uplift movement. The civilian population that embraced Uplift have no problems finding improvements and implementing projects that improve their standard of living. What they need is protection for growth, which required unimaginable power against all those who would oppose it.
 
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Are they together in MfD? I can't remember.
Hazō debated keeping his mouth shut but simply couldn't resist. "Speaking of love lives, how is Captain Yūhi?"

The ruler of the greatest nation on the planet pinked up like a teenage boy. "She and all of my other senior officers are doing fine. Thank you for asking."

"Have you had the opportunity to debrief with her recently, sir?"

Asuma gave him a stern look. "Are you sure you want to go down this road with me, Hazō? You're still on thin ice after all the treason."
I don't think they're married per se, but...
 
Ideas for goodies we can get from sharing foom:
Immortality from oro
Oro help on great seal
Training jutsu similar to pangolin's one
Resolve jutsu
Leaf to bribe dogs into being our summons
 
In hindsight, it's plain to see how the quest has changed (from the perspective of a player) since its inception. The players, and I would assume the QMs as well, have become very attached to our original band of misfits in now stark contrast to the premise I remember about this quest being as strict of a simulation as possible about trying to survive in a deathworld based on the Naruto universe yet made more rational. I was convinced our first attempt was doomed from the outset as too many people made decisions based on MfD!incorrect canon knowledge.

Now here we are in Leaf alive and, if not completely well, in a position to recover, but we aren't pregnant with Sasuke's child so everything didn't go according to the thread's first "bold" plan exactly.

I mention all of this to preface that I am proud of almost (never forget the pedants) everything the thread has accomplished and I want to encourage everyone to keep the process of Uplift going by expanding it outside of our clan, not keeping it to ourselves until a much later time. I find the organic narrative of MfD more satisfying and inspiring because it comes from a simulation background. Ordinary people decided to do more than survive in a deathworld: to transform it, to improve it so that all people in that same world could thrive instead because we found the means to do so.

The simulationist nature, from my point of view, necessitates treating all of the NPC's we interact with as real people. If they are to live in a world without war they must pursue lasting peace. If they are to live in a world with justice they must act to hold themselves and each other to equal standards. Improvement starts with a visionary but only endures when the masses practice it.

Hazou has to increase his personal power while laying the foundations for Uplift to prove through action that he leads from the front, practicing what he preaches and consequently succeeds by doing so. I do not want Uplift as a movement stifled by naysayers claiming Hazou only advocates for Uplift due to his strength gained from his connections to Jiraiya, his bloodline, his summons, and whatever else we find. Might making right has persisted since the Sage's time as the underlying axiom of the MfD world so to truly change stubborn simulated people's minds Hazou must champion what he/we believe is right before he becomes so powerful he has to be placated, willingly or begrudgingly. The presence of the person espousing a message must not overshadow the message itself or that message will be silenced by perceived looming implications.

Hazou can accomplish all of those goals you mentioned like the tip of a spear skewering the evils of the MfD world with his compatriots in Uplift acting as his shield, army, vanguard, and logistical support. The training for those people currently outside of our sphere of influence must be delegated eventually to achieve accelerating growth but Hazou has to take the first step to begin the process. Conveniently, winning the hearts and minds of the next generation of Leaf ninja can in part be accomplished by winning in battle, acquiring more power-ups, and defeating malefactors. How we win those fights and how we present ourselves and our beliefs matters as well though.

A movement would be more narratively satisfying than having Hazou become effectively a Messiah. No chosen ones but choosing our own destiny and teaching others to do so as well seems more accurate to the tone and the themes of what this quest has become, to me at least. I won't hold it against you if you still disagree; I just wanted to clarify my stance.
I've been meaning recently to make a plan where we go have lunch with Lee and talk about Youth and Uplift. Not as a gag or anything, genuinely I think there's a lot of value to be had here in turning Uplift from the doctrine of the Goketsu into a mainstream ideology and movement. If you look at the Church of Youth everything it does is what we would want to do in their shoes, and we all remember how Akane considered Uplift extremely Youthful.

If Uplift and Youth can be seen as two sides of the same coin, the same ideal viewed through two different facets, I expect if we met we'd have a lot to talk about, a lot of genuine room to learn from each other and refine our own ideologies. We could even open the door to greater cooperation with the Church of Youth, which is extremely valuable given that the Church of Youth gets taught alongside the Will of Fire in the Academy. If we want to make Uplift a movement that everyone's on board with I can think of no better route than talking with Lee until the doctrine of Uplift and the doctrine of the Church of Youth are nigh-identical.

Lee's a good kid, he's earnest and kind and compassionate even to civilians, and he genuinely wants to spread that goodness to the rest of the world. Coincidentally, you could say the exact same about Hazou, and I think not talking philosophy with him is a continual missed opportunity. I'm a bit too busy this week to make a plan in this vein myself, but once the week's over or if someone else makes the plan in the meantime I'd definitely support it, how about you?
 
I've been meaning recently to make a plan where we go have lunch with Lee and talk about Youth and Uplift. Not as a gag or anything, genuinely I think there's a lot of value to be had here in turning Uplift from the doctrine of the Goketsu into a mainstream ideology and movement. If you look at the Church of Youth everything it does is what we would want to do in their shoes, and we all remember how Akane considered Uplift extremely Youthful.

If Uplift and Youth can be seen as two sides of the same coin, the same ideal viewed through two different facets, I expect if we met we'd have a lot to talk about, a lot of genuine room to learn from each other and refine our own ideologies. We could even open the door to greater cooperation with the Church of Youth, which is extremely valuable given that the Church of Youth gets taught alongside the Will of Fire in the Academy. If we want to make Uplift a movement that everyone's on board with I can think of no better route than talking with Lee until the doctrine of Uplift and the doctrine of the Church of Youth are nigh-identical.

Lee's a good kid, he's earnest and kind and compassionate even to civilians, and he genuinely wants to spread that goodness to the rest of the world. Coincidentally, you could say the exact same about Hazou, and I think not talking philosophy with him is a continual missed opportunity. I'm a bit too busy this week to make a plan in this vein myself, but once the week's over or if someone else makes the plan in the meantime I'd definitely support it, how about you?
And so, the circle is complete.
 
In hindsight, it's plain to see how the quest has changed (from the perspective of a player) since its inception. The players, and I would assume the QMs as well, have become very attached to our original band of misfits in now stark contrast to the premise I remember about this quest being as strict of a simulation as possible about trying to survive in a deathworld based on the Naruto universe yet made more rational. I was convinced our first attempt was doomed from the outset as too many people made decisions based on MfD!incorrect canon knowledge.

Now here we are in Leaf alive and, if not completely well, in a position to recover, but we aren't pregnant with Sasuke's child so everything didn't go according to the thread's first "bold" plan exactly.

I mention all of this to preface that I am proud of almost (never forget the pedants) everything the thread has accomplished and I want to encourage everyone to keep the process of Uplift going by expanding it outside of our clan, not keeping it to ourselves until a much later time. I find the organic narrative of MfD more satisfying and inspiring because it comes from a simulation background. Ordinary people decided to do more than survive in a deathworld: to transform it, to improve it so that all people in that same world could thrive instead because we found the means to do so.

The simulationist nature, from my point of view, necessitates treating all of the NPC's we interact with as real people. If they are to live in a world without war they must pursue lasting peace. If they are to live in a world with justice they must act to hold themselves and each other to equal standards. Improvement starts with a visionary but only endures when the masses practice it.

Hazou has to increase his personal power while laying the foundations for Uplift to prove through action that he leads from the front, practicing what he preaches and consequently succeeds by doing so. I do not want Uplift as a movement stifled by naysayers claiming Hazou only advocates for Uplift due to his strength gained from his connections to Jiraiya, his bloodline, his summons, and whatever else we find. Might making right has persisted since the Sage's time as the underlying axiom of the MfD world so to truly change stubborn simulated people's minds Hazou must champion what he/we believe is right before he becomes so powerful he has to be placated, willingly or begrudgingly. The presence of the person espousing a message must not overshadow the message itself or that message will be silenced by perceived looming implications.

Hazou can accomplish all of those goals you mentioned like the tip of a spear skewering the evils of the MfD world with his compatriots in Uplift acting as his shield, army, vanguard, and logistical support. The training for those people currently outside of our sphere of influence must be delegated eventually to achieve accelerating growth but Hazou has to take the first step to begin the process. Conveniently, winning the hearts and minds of the next generation of Leaf ninja can in part be accomplished by winning in battle, acquiring more power-ups, and defeating malefactors. How we win those fights and how we present ourselves and our beliefs matters as well though.

A movement would be more narratively satisfying than having Hazou become effectively a Messiah. No chosen ones but choosing our own destiny and teaching others to do so as well seems more accurate to the tone and the themes of what this quest has become, to me at least. I won't hold it against you if you still disagree; I just wanted to clarify my stance.
This bit deserves a response, but TL;DR is that we can agree to disagree.

While its true that ending war will require a general change of stance in the population, there's a big question of where that change of stance will come from. I don't have faith enough in the hivemind's ability to make ideologically-compelling memes nor in Hazou's personal charisma for these worldview-shifting ideas to be conveyed through peaceful communication alone. Hence, pursuit of personal power. If at all, this is positive evidence towards Hazou's faithfulness towards Uplift. In this world, where power is correlated with exploiting those weaker than you, it means something when you're incredibly powerful and still refuse to do so.

As to how to leverage that personal power -- the narrative structure lends to small groups more than armies. Also, as others have pointed out, SC training is only an advantage if the other guy doesn't have it, and teaching it to rando academy washouts means that the other guy will have it really, really fast -- including their Kage and their high-Resolve characters. Beyond that, if we somehow convinced Asuma of the true importance of this secret, if he really believed it were a way to churn out e-jounin and S-rankers, the rational thing for Asuma to do would be to quietly murder the core Team Uplift that knows the secret, then train only people extremely loyal to him and the Will of Fire. As we've shown, Hazou isn't loyal to the Will of Fire, and the team is more loyal to Hazou than to Leaf.
 
"I've already dumped my reserves doing Substitutions. I came here as soon as I woke up, when my reserves were pretty much full, and I was able to do it sixteen times. I want to refill and try that a couple more times, then try doing the same with Multiple Earth Wall."
16*14 CP = 224 CP

Hazou has a maximum of 260 CP

Either Hazou didn't have full reserves (he only said "pretty much full"), or he isn't very good at judging when he's actually empty.
"Thanks." Hazō took the proffered cup of chakra water and glugged it down, feeling the inner roar of chakra surging back into his channels. "Okay, here we go." He flickered away, bouncing around the field as he swapped back and forth between the various logs and boulders that he had placed around.

"Seventeen," he said, collapsing to all fours on the frozen ground, retching as his body protested against the demands on his suddenly-emptied coils.

"I counted eighteen," Noburi said.
Sage-damn it, learn to count you fuckers.

17*14 CP = 238 CP
18*14 CP = 252 CP

Probably the latter given how winded Hazou was, which is in contrast to how easily he was taking it in the earlier conversation. He probably didn't push himself very hard in the first trial.
"Uh-huh. Okay, let's try it again."

Hazō drank once more and then repeated the exercise.

"Nineteen? Nineteen?! What the fuck?!"
19*14 CP = 266 CP

This is more than Hazou's reserves and reveals another confounder -- overfilling. Noburi sloshed out a little extra chakra in the water and Hazou got overfilled. He can overfill without Consequence to 273 CP, so spending 266 CP and still being conscious is pretty doable. Still, this reveals another variable that needs to be controlled.
Hazō sighed. "Fine, whatever. Let's try it with MEW. I'm going to do the smallest one I can, at normal speed instead of combat speed, and I'm going to conjure them on top of those logs so that they're chakra constructs." His fingers twitched as he wrote those words into the air. He would use the Iron Nerve to replay them onto paper once he got back to the estate.

"Think you could do it quick like?" Noburi demanded, amused. "I didn't eat yet."

"Yeah, yeah." He flexed his fingers, shaking them a bit to get the blood moving so that they wouldn't be too stiff to form handseals, and then flicked through the technique until the trickles of chakra left in his coils were not enough to continue.

"Ten times," Noburi noted.
Uhhh.... I think default time MEW costs 33 chakra, 10x of which is more than Hazou has chakra for. @eaglejarl , was Hazou casting these MEWs with his Standard action? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for it to be 330 CP.

Though if he were doing the combat-speed version despite what he said, with no elemental source, then it would cost 25 CP per cast. This matches up, 10*25 CP = 250, just under his reserves cap.
"Will do. Thanks." He drank the water and promptly dumped all the chakra it provided him into conjuring masses of granite that rose up from nowhere, fell over because the logs they had been cast atop were not stable enough to support them, and disappeared half a minute later. "Nine times. Damnit, why can't things be consistent?"
No, the constructs are lasting for a half minute, which means they're not the quick-time version. That means that this should cost 9*33 CP = 297 CP. While the Substitution trials made sense, this doesn't at all. @eaglejarl is it correct that in these trials, Hazou was casting with parameters consistent with the non-combat version? That is:
  • Standard action -- not Supplemental, not extended cast
  • Range in Zone -- not Melee
  • 30s duration construct -- not seconds.
  • Always construct -- no chance of permanence
?

Anyway, followups on the chakra science, attending the wedding, meeting with Rock Lee plan:



[X] Action Plan: Steady Progression
Words: 299
  • Intended timeframe: 10-14 days
    • While training Kagome, make seals if possible.
  • Attend Kei and Tenten's Commitment Ceremony:
    • Ask the Arachnids and Dogs if they know any especially pointy objects for a gift.
  • Check the rest of the plan with Mari.
  • Find a couple hours to talk with Rock Lee.
    • Ask him to explain the philosophy of Youth as it's taught at the Churches and Academy.
    • Explain Uplift in turn:
      • Stopping the decline of the world, and all the threats to its continued existence.
      • Making the world better for everyone. Not just that, but making the world the absolute best it can be.
      • Uniting people against the forces that drag them down, whether that be physical monsters, or unfair systems and cycles of hatred.
    • Try to identify common ground.
    • For differences, find the roots of the differences. What are the cruxes?
    • If the conversation is fruitful, try meeting with him every week.
  • Chakra Science:
    • Check with Noburi -- is going to unconsciousness with techniques always dangerous? If not dangerous when monitored and with chakra water:
      • Test again, using techniques till unconsciousness.
      • Before every trial, top up with Noburi's chakra water. Drink a little above your maximum, then wait for the extra to seep out naturally.
      • If repeatedly going to unconsciousness is dangerous, do this over several days.
      • Otherwise, just trial once per day.
      • Count uses out loud to not get confused.
      • Write down everything. See if the average over time converges.
  • (offscreen) Misc:
    • Make sure new Gouketsu are sufficiently trained in OPSEC
    • Ask if Asuma can pay for a Dog to travel to Toad for future Summoning strategies.
    • Send Mareo a letter and some high-quality chocolate. Hazou is looking for DRAGONWAR help from every Summoner he can find. Explain crisis and threat posed to the Bears. Is Mareo comfortable exchanging letters?
 
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