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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I have been thinking about it and wanted to get a few other opinions, but is making gromril chain mail the best thing we can do for as many dwarfs as possible? We have research in our backlog that has the potential to restore sight and hearing to other dwarfs, who will no doubt be able to take more apprentices and contribute to the greater whole than a single dwarf can. As great as the prestige that comes from gromril chain may give, is going for it for the prestige and a commission that may or may not need it really important? It doesn't really seem to fit Snorri, not to me at least. Thoughts?
I'm also not particularly excited about Gromril chain, getting more standing is kind off *shrug, Snorri will get a swollen head^^.

It could be worth it if the recipe is simple enough for the Metalworking guild or we make it available to every runesmith.
Having 90% of the protection of Gromril at 50% the cost will substantially improve "Dwarven toughness" for every non-rich dwarf, but it feels kinda pointless for "swimming in Gromril Snorri".

With the Standing gained from doing Gromril chain, could we use the Standing to give the recipe to everyone?
 
With the Standing gained from doing Gromril chain, could we use the Standing to give the recipe to everyone?
I would like to, but I can't help but think that if Grungni did not teach anyone how to make Gromril chain - not even His sons! - then it wouldn't be appropriate for us to do so.
But I agree with you that if we're the only one that can make Gromril chain once the research chain is done, it's pretty pointless considering chainmail is worse than Gromril plate which we can already easily make.
 
I would like to, but I can't help but think that if Grungni did not teach anyone how to make Gromril chain - not even His sons! - then it wouldn't be appropriate for us to do so.
But I agree with you that if we're the only one that can make Gromril chain once the research chain is done, it's pretty pointless considering chainmail is worse than Gromril plate which we can already easily make.
Chainmail is used in conjunction with plate, because plate can't cover all your body or you wouldn't be able to move.

So it would be an upgrade for essentially every piece of armor we've made, since they wear steel chainmail now.
 
Chainmail is used in conjunction with plate, because plate can't cover all your body or you wouldn't be able to move.

So it would be an upgrade for essentially every piece of armor we've made, since they wear steel chainmail now.
I suppose, but that's still a rather negligible improvement compared to the rather massive action sink we're expecting the research to be.
IMO it will not have been worth it unless we can get other smiths to make gromril chainmail as well, so that the technique can spread around the empire and get every dwarf safer.
 
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I have been thinking about it and wanted to get a few other opinions, but is making gromril chain mail the best thing we can do for as many dwarfs as possible? We have research in our backlog that has the potential to restore sight and hearing to other dwarfs, who will no doubt be able to take more apprentices and contribute to the greater whole than a single dwarf can. As great as the prestige that comes from gromril chain may give, is going for it for the prestige and a commission that may or may not need it really important? It doesn't really seem to fit Snorri, not to me at least. Thoughts?
Yes, making Gromril chain is the best thing we can do for as many dwarves as possible.

Out of all of our research, I think Gromril Chain is the one that has the greatest potential to impact the greatest number of dwarves in the greatest variety of ways. I've talked about it a little bit before, but I'll do my best to explain why I think this in a more grounded manner.

Dwarves are creatures of narratives, and as such narratives play a powerful role in their society. We can see this in how they praise their ancestors, how they point to the deeds of the past and tell stories of how their clan came to be. It is not the deeds themselves which bind the dwarven community, for often the effects of those deeds of valor are washed away by other needs and other trials, but the stories of those deeds which bond the society. They tell the deeds of their ancestors to their children, who tell it to their children. Of impossibly beautiful craftsmanship, and of incredible feats of martial prowess. And upon hearing them, the dwarves are inspired to live up to those deeds and to be as good as their ancestors were.

There is only one problem with this. Some deeds, some feats, some works of art, are so beyond what dwarves expect to be possible that they look at them as a mountain that can never be climbed. As a ceiling that will forever be out of their reach, let alone breached. Specifically the work of their ancestor gods. Of the divine killing power in Grimnir, of the divine craftsmanship of Grungni, of the divine healing of Valaya. Their feats and accomplishments laid the foundation of the entire Dwarven empire, but it also, for many dwarves, established the sky as well. Skill in a chosen craft can be excellent, almost miraculous to other dwarves, but it can not even meet the skill displayed by the divine. And such a belief, if left to fossilize amongst a race known for their stubbornness, can limit the heights that the Dwarves will be willing to try and reach. Especially since those limits can only be broken with sufficient effort and the will to break them.

Gromril chain is a way to break that narrative and shatter the chains of belief that many dwarves have. For a mortal to create something that was once the purview of the divine creates two possibilities. Either the mortal is elevated to the status of the divine so that the deed still remains within the realm of divinity or the deed is removed from the sole purview of the divine and can now be done by mortals. And Snorri, as every dwarf who knows him will tell you, is not divine. He is not on the level of the ancestor gods, and he will whack you if you try and elevate him to such a position. Which leaves only one option. That the feat of making Gromril chain no longer belongs solely to the divine, but can also be accomplished by mortals. With sufficient effort, skill, and will of course.

This feat could change how many of the feats of the Ancestor Gods are perceived. Not as limits that can not be reached, but as challenges to strive for. Which, from the lowest janitor of Karaz-a-Karak to those one step removed from Divinity themselves, is inspiring. That the wall they have reached in their skill and ability is not unbreachable, but can be broken or circumvented. That the limits they encounter are not the ceilings imposed upon them by the gods, but simply natural limitations that can be broken by those of strong enough will.

And this message coming from The Gift-Giver is all the more powerful. Yes, he is a runelord. Yes, that means he has a direct connection to the Divine already. But none expected him to reach this far, ever. He is of a distant connection to Thungni, and his apprenticeship was a measly 20 years. He started with barely anything but an unusual training in runesmithing and goat-herding. Now look at him, Eldest Runelord of the North, Earth Mover, Hold Warder, Unyielding Breaker of Darkness, Shadow Killer. All of this not achieved because of who he was born as, but because he had the will to do it. And the message that the deeds of the ancestor gods are not an unbreachable ceiling imposed upon Dwarves but rather challenges to be reached becomes all the more potent when coming from someone who everyone expected so little of.

That is why I am such a fan of Gromril chain. Not because of the material we get to play with, not because of the prestige and standing we would get from it, not because of the ephemeral chance to meet the last ancestor god, not because of the deeper understanding of the world we would develop along the way, and not because of the skill we would gain from working towards the goal. No, none of those things get me as excited as I am about working on Gromril chain. What gets me excited, is the potential to upend the narratives that Dwarves have built regarding the deeds of their gods. That it is a ceiling that can never be reached rather than a ladder to climb to greater heights.
 
I'd say that by far the best thing we could do for the dwarves is make Alchemy mainstream, as it demonstrates that it's possible for 'modern' dwarves to make contributions to dwarf society in the same orders of magnitude as the Ancestor Gods, and so prove that dwarf society shouldn't just ape their example, but can instead explore entire new fields of endeavour.

Gromril chain shows that it's worth dwarves trying to duplicate what the Ancestor Gods did. It's fundamentally backwards looking and derivative. It reinforces rather than rejects the idea that they can only aspire to what their betters have already done. Alchemy shows that there is more out there that's worth learning that the Ancestor Gods never even considered. It's forward looking and innovative.
 
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@soulcake question I had for you, where is the new settlement of the Dum dwarves going to be in the Far North and what's the new name of the Karak going to be if there is going to be a new one?
 
I'd say that by far the best thing we could do for the dwarves is make Alchemy mainstream, as it demonstrates that it's possible for 'modern' dwarves to make contributions to dwarf society in the same orders of magnitude as the Ancestor Gods, and so prove that dwarf society shouldn't just ape their example, but can instead explore entire new fields of endeavour.
Creating an alchemists guild could have quite a lot of positive effects beyond just inspiring other dwarves. The alchemists guild could greatly advance dwarven chemistry accelerating the development of gunpowder and drakeguns, increased material science can also mean better mundane materials for (rune)smiths and engineers and other craftguilds as well as better magical reagents for runesmiths. Plus it also gives dwarves another way to use magic that doesn't rely entirely on a single bloodline, once Thungni's blood starts running thin and runesmiths become less common being able to supplement the dwindling supply of runemagic through elixirs and potions could be very useful. I still want to do the chain first but long term I think creating an alchemists guild could be the biggest positive impact Snorri can have on the dwarves.
 
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Now that I think of it, has it ever been fully explained why it's only the descendants of Thungni that can work the Runes? I'd imagine it's because he's the one who tapped the Ankor Bryn way back when, and so the ability got sort of metaphysically tied to him somehow. But is there the possibility to establish a fresh tap, so to speak? The dawi wouldn't go for it on account of it being blasphemy, of course, but still. It'd be a useful thing indeed in the Time of Woes to have the runesmith bloodlines not run so dang thin.
 
Now that I think of it, has it ever been fully explained why it's only the descendants of Thungni that can work the Runes? I'd imagine it's because he's the one who tapped the Ankor Bryn way back when, and so the ability got sort of metaphysically tied to him somehow. But is there the possibility to establish a fresh tap, so to speak? The dawi wouldn't go for it on account of it being blasphemy, of course, but still. It'd be a useful thing indeed in the Time of Woes to have the runesmith bloodlines not run so dang thin.
Because thats why.
I mean its never explained why Grugni can also do runes but his descendants can't.
I don't know if soulcake has an answer prepared or was always intending to leave it a mystery, however I am certain the only way we'd ever find out is by going to the Glittering Realm ourselves.
 
Now that I think of it, has it ever been fully explained why it's only the descendants of Thungni that can work the Runes? I'd imagine it's because he's the one who tapped the Ankor Bryn way back when, and so the ability got sort of metaphysically tied to him somehow. But is there the possibility to establish a fresh tap, so to speak? The dawi wouldn't go for it on account of it being blasphemy, of course, but still. It'd be a useful thing indeed in the Time of Woes to have the runesmith bloodlines not run so dang thin.

Given that Alchemy is about internal spiritual as well as external physical transformation, there could be all sorts of possibilities it could eventually unlock...

Not that we'll be ready for that for centuries, but the combination of the research we'll potentially doing into the nature of dwarfkind via Movement and Mind of Things, into the nature of reality with Happening of Things, and how to transform/elevate them with Alchemy, we could really end up with something amazing. This isn't, to emphasise, a near or even medium term goal, but in the very long run it could be a extraordinary.

Because thats why.
I mean its never explained why Grugni can also do runes but his descendants can't.
I don't know if soulcake has an answer prepared or was always intending to leave it a mystery, however I am certain the only way we'd ever find out is by going to the Glittering Realm ourselves.

Well, Gazul created the Ancestor Runes, so any descendants he had might be able to craft runes. Of course, he may not have any descendants.
 
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Because thats why.
I mean its never explained why Grugni can also do runes but his descendants can't.
I don't know if soulcake has an answer prepared or was always intending to leave it a mystery, however I am certain the only way we'd ever find out is by going to the Glittering Realm ourselves.
Can the other Ancestors, ie those also directly related to Thungni but not his descendants, do runes even if they don't actually do so?
 
Well, Gazul created the Ancestor Runes, so any descendants he had might be able to craft runes. Of course, he may not have any descendants
Yeah thats the other weird thing. Despite that in canon Gazul made the Ancestor Runes, canonically Thungni never taught him. 🤷‍♂️
E:

Can the other Ancestors, ie those also directly related to Thungni but not his descendants, do runes even if they don't actually do so?
Its weird.
Article:
The Ancestor God Thungni discovered the runes after dwelling considerable time in Ankor Byrn. Upon returning, he taught his knowledge to his father, Grungni, and a few of his descendants. Together, they developed the art to capture magic with his hammercraft

So canonically no, just Thungni and Grungni.

However

Article:
He also uncovered the signature runes for himself and his sibling gods: Grungni, Valaya, and Grimnir. These "signature runes" gave the Ancestor Gods and their followers power over specific elementals.[1a]

So also canonically Gazul can apparently do it despite having no apparent way of having learnt it.

In quest canon, we also saw Grimnir make his MRune so I think that soulcake has just decided to treat all the ancestors as being able to do it.
 
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Yeah thats the other weird thing. Despite that in canon Gazul made the Ancestor Runes, canonically Thungni never taught him. 🤷‍♂️

That may be why the Ancestor Runes are so weird. Gazul's runes may actually be more conceptual, being based around the part of the Ancestor Gods that are Gods, that exist in the Aethyr, if that's a thing, just as Gazul deals with the part of dwarves that exists in the Aethyr, their souls.

Speculating wildly, that may mean we'd want to go to Gazul to try to develop any Rune of the Soul. I wonder if that's part of what makes the Master Rune of Awakening so mysterious, because it's based on a compression containing something like that Rune of the Soul, and it was developed in collaboration between Thungni and Gazul. Gazul is also Lord of the Underearth, which is another potential, if unlikely, connection, given the known links of Awakening and Deep Magic.

Going further, I wonder if there's a timing issue involved in whose descendants can inherit Runecrafting. Based on the vision we saw, Gazul did something to transform the Ancestor Gods, but did he transform them in short succession, or over a longer period. That transformation may be what allowed them to craft runes, but we don't know when they had their children. If the transformation was hereditable, but Grimnir, Grungni, Smednir, Morgrim, and Valaya received their transformation after they stopped having children, and Thungni before, that would explain it.
So also canonically Gazul can apparently do it despite having no apparent way of having learnt it.

He could have independently invented them, and Grimnir could have taught himself - or Gazul or Grungni could have taught him.
 
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However

Article: He also uncovered the signature runes for himself and his sibling gods: Grungni, Valaya, and Grimnir. These "signature runes" gave the Ancestor Gods and their followers power over specific elementals.[1a] Source: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Gazul
So also canonically Gazul can apparently do it despite having no apparent way of having learnt it.
Power over elementals? That's weird, why elementals... *checks*

Ah. Warhammer Fantasy RPG 1st Edition.

You of the "the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone" as BoneyM put it.

I think I'd put more stock in the vision Gazul showed us -- of burning away the bindings of fate -- rather than assume "Rune of Soul and stuff?" Because the latter sounds like the "Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone" thing. Nah, better to take a more Dwarfy approach. Rather than assuming that we can just go far into magic and the Aethyr and esoterica while being Dwarfs.

I think, instead, that we can only go far into the Dwarf Zone and Rune Zone, rather than the full scope of the Aethyr Zone. Metaphorically speaking.

Be like Dwarfs, and do Dwarf things, rather than assume that anything Elves or Humans can do (especially with magic and and priestly magic and reaching into the Aethyr) that Dwarfs can do too.

We don't have infinite breadth available, is what I'm saying. And maybe trying to expand the breadth too much would be bad. Sometimes, you just have to account for what a race and people are. And not just assume that you can always go broader, and reach infinitely wider with your grasp, with no consequence to it.

Just... be a good Dwarf. A reach far for a Dwarf.

And don't assume that not-reaching-wide is some kind of "Giving up and admitting defeat", and some kind of catastrophe, and calamitously accepting limitations and will lead to our doom because we'd never be more than Dwarfs. You know what else can happen, if you go too far? You hit the Nemesis Crown zone or the Dawi Zharr zone. -_-
 
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Er, that being Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st Edition. Did my missing out a word or two make it too confusing or uncertain...? Or is this humor and it's just totally going over my head?
They meant it as a joking "that doesn't exist". Like Highlander 2, or the live-action Avatar: the Last Airbender movie.
 
Power over elementals? That's weird, why elementals... *checks*

Ah. Warhammer Fantasy RPG 1st Edition.

You of the "the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone" as BoneyM put it.

Gazul and Thungni only exist in WFRP 1E. If you're throwing out information from that source they wouldn't exist at all. The information saying that Thungni is the inventor of rune crafting is from the same source, the same book, in fact, saying Gazul invented Ancestor Runes.

And from what we've been told in this quest is that Runes for everything exists. That means a Rune of the Soul does, and there's no reason that dwarves can't conceive of souls.
 
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I mean, this is Warhammer, picking and choosing segments of canon to pick up and to ignore is basically classic to the entire setting. Like a CYOA with background fluff instead of characters. And sometimes not even that!
 
Dwarf wizards.

Gazul and Thungni only exist in WFRP 1E. If you're throwing out information from that source they wouldn't exist at all. The information saying that Thungni is the inventor of rune crafting is from the same source, the same book, in fact, saying Gazul invented Ancestor Runes.

And from what we've been told in this quest is that Runes for everything exists. That means a Rune of the Soul does, and there's no reason that dwarves can't conceive of souls.
They're also mentioned in Grudgelore. We're safe in that regard.
 
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