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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[x] Plan No Fire Lord Ozai, YOU'RE not wearing pants!
-[x] [Commander Name]: Fire Lord
-[x] [Champion Name]: Fire Sage
-[x] Exemplar: The Champion is to be the greatest example of what it means to be a Hearthwarden. One who understands intrinsically what your group entails and goes above and beyond to fulfill its stated purpose.
 
I don't know if this topic is still on-topic -- am reading through things and am on page 1262 -- but guys ya'll do remember that the translation torcs were given because we couldn't talk to the griffons otherwise? Or at least, not without a load of frustration and charades? ((Also, Griffons don't make magical items. Elves do. That's kind of a big difference here, you know? Even if both races can see the Winds of magic, the Elves are the ones who are renowned for making magic items. Whereas the Griffons weren't known for that. So even if they start up magic item crafting, they'd be a bit behind in that, you know.))

There's literally no point in paying for services with Rune items, when just gold or gems or items would do. o_O ... No point... ... except for a desire to move and force politics and make a statement. The equivalent of sneaking in politics or legislature via a manner or method in which it shouldn't be done.

Also, this talk about 'What have the Elves done? Oh, I dunno -- how about saved the whole world, huh?' is also irrelevant, because they didn't do that alongside us, and that has nothing to do with showing your reliability and trustworthiness to a Dwarf. It's an amazing achievement, and it's a sign of self-preservation (anybody would have done the same, if they could have). But it's different from "standing side by side and fighting Chaos together." Like, again, this is obvious, you know? ... Also, we don't know that they saved the world. Snorri doesn't know that. Even if we found out, it would be more appropriate for Grungni or Thungni to make something for them for that, not Snorri, as it'd be a gift from the ultimate representative of one race to another.

Also, I see no reason to hurry so much. No need to rush at all.

To repeat again though... I just don't see the reason in paying with runic items when we can just pay with gold and tradegoods and stuff.

So... just pay in Ravnsvake Favor and gold, silver, gems, or items.

Then, maybe, maybe, if an Elf decides to travel here to teach rather than a Dwarf who learned the language... and if we hit it off with the Elf... Then we could start thinking about maybe giving or exchanging gifts (of toys and stuff first). And then much later on, maybe thinking about runic items.

We could also wait to see if they would be willing to sell us magic items, first. ((Though even then, Dwarfs probably treat runic items as seriously and more importantly than Elf magic items. Not that Elves don't treat it seriously, nor that they lack divinities of crafting (they have Vaul) and divinities of magic (Loec, Lileath). It's just, the Dwarfs have one god of runesmithing. Thungni. Runesmithing is a holy and divine art.))


So basically... There's no need to rush this. And I don't like the forcing of politics and diplomacy like this. Let it happen much more naturally and slowly.
 
Garlak said:
I don't know if this topic is still on-topic -- am reading through things and am on page 1262 -- but guys ya'll do remember that the translation torcs were given because we couldn't talk to the griffons otherwise? Or at least, not without a load of frustration and charades? ((Also, Griffons don't make magical items. Elves do. That's kind of a big difference here, you know? Even if both races can see the Winds of magic, the Elves are the ones who are renowned for making magic items. Whereas the Griffons weren't known for that. So even if they start up magic item crafting, they'd be a bit behind in that, you know.))

There's literally no point in paying for services with Rune items, when just gold or gems or items would do. o_O ... No point... ... except for a desire to move and force politics and make a statement. The equivalent of sneaking in politics or legislature via a manner or method in which it shouldn't be done.

Also, this talk about 'What have the Elves done? Oh, I dunno -- how about saved the whole world, huh?' is also irrelevant, because they didn't do that alongside us, and that has nothing to do with showing your reliability and trustworthiness to a Dwarf. It's an amazing achievement, and it's a sign of self-preservation (anybody would have done the same, if they could have). But it's different from "standing side by side and fighting Chaos together."
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Calandor was the one who pointed Grimnir towards the north pole. Without that bit of elf-dwarf cooperation he might never have made it to the gate in time and the world might have ended.
 
Garlak said:
So basically... There's no need to rush this. And I don't like the forcing of politics and diplomacy like this. Let it happen much more naturally and slowly.
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DragonParadox said:
Calandor was the one who pointed Grimnir towards the north pole. Without that bit of elf-dwarf cooperation he might never have made it to the gate in time and the world might have ended.
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Both are valid points to a potential hearing among the House of Runelords if you decided to push the issue. :^)
 
soulcake said:
There's an element of Dwarfen arrogance at play here. Who would you believe more, that some weird guys from across the sea managed to save the world or through the literal greatest sacrifice of your Warrior Diety. They're realistic enough to know that its probably both but their pride both as Dwarfs and in Grimnir tells them things are skewed in their favour.

80 years ain't that long for Elves or Dawi, and when the nature of that contact is primarily mercantile well...

... so yeah they understand academically, but they don't really understand the weight of it.
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Meanwhile the both of their efforts wouldn't have amounted to anything if it weren't for a) the lizardmen taking on the majority of the daemon-armies and b) that one group of Old One-taught humans on Albion setting up a buffer system for the Vortex because Caledor was an idiot who built the thing with no breathing room. But neither the elves or dwarfs will ever give either of them credit for it.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Well I want to push the issue frankly.
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Me too. The idea that the Brana should be honored for the much lesser service of saving the dwarf holds of the North above the elves who saved the world upon which all of Karaz Ankor is founded makes the dwarfs looks at best myopic and at worst blindly paranoid and suspicious. To be entirely blunt in keeping the Asur at arm's length Karaz Ankor is failing to live up to its principles. Of course it goes both ways, the elves are being overly cold as well given the great service that was done them, but the principles of the dawi should not depend upon an exchange like trading carrots on market day
 
DragonParadox said:
Calandor was the one who pointed Grimnir towards the north pole. Without that bit of elf-dwarf cooperation he might never have made it to the gate in time and the world might have ended.
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soulcake said:
Both are valid points to a potential hearing among the House of Runelords if you decided to push the issue. :^)
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Yep, and so if an Elf saves one of our students' lives or ended up fighting a Troll together with them -- like the Griffons swooped in on some Trolls, remember -- or rescued them at sea or something, I'd be willing to think about an exchange or gift of some runic item!

Paying an English teacher to travel here and teach us their language? No.

I refuse to push a major issue of cultural values and diplomacy, out of haste because of ooc knowledge and out of lust for more information.

It feels... wrong, or unfitting, to do this over just a mercantile exchange.

By "wrong or unfitting", I mean I would prefer for there to be a more natural feel or a story to it. Like Malekith and Snorri Whitebeard adventuring together.

And no, I'm not satisfied with the argument of "Well there you go, you pay the language teacher with a runic item, bam, there's your story." Again, that's artificially pushing an agenda.

I don't want to push an agenda, for the sake of ooc knowledge and meta knowledge. I want to ease into this and have this happen more gradually or more interestingly than that!


The Griffon thing started out by us seeing signs that somebody was hunting Trolls. Then, a Griffon attacked a troll in front of us, and didn't attack us. Then, later, the head Ranger of Kraka Drakk ended up going out and making contact with Griffons. Then, we confirmed that they were intelligent and could be negotiated with. Then, the Ranger asked us for a translation device to help. There's a story there; and, more, it was a story that happened right in front of us on our doorstep. A story that we were there to see, and participate in.

Which again is also different from "You want a story? Well, they helped save the world, and the Dwarfs know a bit about that, and also Grimnir exchanged extremely important artifacts with them. Bam, there's your story. So get with the trading already." No, I want this to happen with us slowly getting involved, and testing the waters, and so on. I don't want us to make this decision based on meta-knowledge, of hurrying up something that "is already going to happen canonically" just because we know it happens canonically.

I want to let this happen, maybe help make it happen or take part in. I don't want to force it happen, or rush it along. Which, yes, is what I consider the "Heck, why not pay with runic items?" to be; rushing or forcing it along, rather than 'just being part of the story.'


In other words; can we not force things and just let them happen? If you ooc know that an Elf-Dwarf alliance is going to happen, can you just be patient for it? Rather than partisanly pushing for it from the start?

It's much more fun and interesting and cool to me, if things happen more organically or naturally, you know? It feels more real, more deserved, more historic, and more mythical too.
 
DragonParadox said:
Me too. The idea that the Brana should be honored for the much lesser service of saving the dwarf holds of the North above the elves who saved the world upon which all of Karaz Ankor is founded makes the dwarfs looks at best myopic and at worst blindly paranoid and suspicious. To be entirely blunt in keeping the Asur at arm's length Karaz Ankor is failing to live up to its principles. Of course it goes both ways, the elves are being overly cold as well given the great service that was done them, but the principles of the dawi should not depend upon an exchange like trading carrots on market day
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well the difference there is 1 the dwarves and brana fought together the elves and dwarves fought in different places. 2 we have known the brana for longer and 3 the king of the brana gave the dwarves his literal heart as a show of trust
Why do we want to push this issue? there is no real reason to unless we get a comission from an elf or something
 
@soulcake Just out of curiosity, how big of a hullabaloo would it cause if Snorri found an Elgi to teach him the normal way (lotsa money) and then equipped the Elgi with a doodad with a rune of translation for the later's use specifically for the duration of their contract.
As in, the elf gets to use something to ease up the job for which they were hired but does not get to keep it.
I'm sure it would still be scandalous, but would it be lower case 's' scandalous, or capital 'S' Scandal and get Snorri called to answer for his actions?
 
PurposefulZephyr said:
Because the plan had no place for giant Gronti.
I mean, I wouldn't be that surprised, if he did it in his spare time (apart from all the AP), but still...
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Well yeah who else would've done it.

yannoshka said:
@soulcake Just out of curiosity, how big of a hullabaloo would it cause if Snorri found an Elgi to teach him the normal way (lotsa money) and then equipped the Elgi with a doodad with a rune of translation for the later's use specifically for the duration of their contract.
As in, the elf gets to use something to ease up the job for which they were hired but does not get to keep it.
I'm sure it would still be scandalous, but would it be lower case 's' scandalous, or capital 'S' Scandal and get Snorri called to answer for his actions?
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It would be argued over why you couldn't just take the time to make a translator that didn't require you to hand it over to them to use. The fact that it isn't a permanent gift would soothe tempers some, but depending on optics would be seen as either short-sighted or purposefully pushing for the Elves to be considered worthy of Runecraft.

Basically, the road to getting the Dwarfs to accept someone or a people as worthy of wielding Runecraft is a long and tough one. Snorri Whitebeard, literal son of Grungni only sped things along, and could not get his people to agree to it overnight the way only an Ancestor can. They're the only dwarfs with the ability to circumvent it all entirely by going "yeah okay," as they did with the Brana (Who if you aren't clued in, gave a very significant amount of metaphysical collateral as a show of trustworthiness and seriousness)
 
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PurposefulZephyr said:
... But how? This turn had all AP going into research.
Did Snorri just... just make a top-tier Gronti as a side-activity?
I said I wouldn't be that surprised, but even then.
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Massive overflow on our devoted actions to build the Dwarfhold. Contribute all you can means contribute all you can. IIRC we built the miner as a sidestep too, but i might be misremembering that.
 
PurposefulZephyr said:
... But how? This turn had all AP going into research.
Did Snorri just... just make a top-tier Gronti as a side-activity?
I said I wouldn't be that surprised, but even then.
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You've got 16 actions dripping in on this with one of the Hold Founding actions, and the other Hold Founding action wasn't entirely done either. A lot of that support is getting sent over already, but you're working on the Hold physically as well whenever you are needed.
 
PurposefulZephyr said:
... But how? This turn had all AP going into research.
Did Snorri just... just make a top-tier Gronti as a side-activity?
I said I wouldn't be that surprised, but even then.
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Pretty certain he did it the turn before last when we had our apprentices and the hold together providing more than was needed then Snorri spending 3 more actions on top of that.

Edit: Ninja'd
 
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