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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Well yeah who else would've done it.



It would be argued over why you couldn't just take the time to make a translator that didn't require you to hand it over to them to use. The fact that it isn't a permanent gift would soothe tempers some, but depending on optics would be seen as either short-sighted or purposefully pushing for the Elves to be considered worthy of Runecraft.

Basically, the road to getting the Dwarfs to accept someone or a people as worthy of wielding Runecraft is a long and tough one. Snorri Whitebeard, literal son of Grungni only sped things along, and could not get his people to agree to it overnight the way only an Ancestor can. They're the only dwarfs with the ability to circumvent it all entirely by going "yeah okay," as they did with the Brana (Who if you aren't clued in, gave a very significant amount of metaphysical collateral as a show of trustworthiness and seriousness)
Danke Shon.
And, just for clarity's sake:
I am not advocating for anything of this nature.
It is a hundred years too early for even taking it into consideration, in my opinion. Well, maybe 80...
I really was just curious.
 
This reads like trying to find an excuse for why Dwarf culture/mindset/values would mandate this, and allow for reaching an objective a human values due to OOC knowledge. i.e. It's like looking at events and trying to find... mrgh.

There's a disconnect, basically.

You have a goal you want to reach or steps you want to pursue. And you look at what has happened and what you know about Dwarfs and events, and you look for a way to use them to achieve your goal... ... Agh, this is difficult to voice exactly...
Me too. The idea that the Brana should be honored for the much lesser service of saving the dwarf holds of the North above the elves who saved the world upon which all of Karaz Ankor is founded makes the dwarfs looks at best myopic and at worst blindly paranoid and suspicious. To be entirely blunt in keeping the Asur at arm's length Karaz Ankor is failing to live up to its principles. Of course it goes both ways, the elves are being overly cold as well given the great service that was done them, but the principles of the dawi should not depend upon an exchange like trading carrots on market day
Good. That's as it should be. (Not just for Dwarfs, even. But for real life too, at that.)

The Brana were right there, with us, standing side by side! The King of the Sky spoke to us personally, and said he would go out and delay the Hold-killer Kholek Suneater, to give us time to prepare! And then he was saved by a Yorri interrupt, and he came back, and we stood together and slew Kholek Suneater! That should be acknowledge, and rewarded, and given more weight and value in a Dwarf's eyes.

Firsthand accounts and firsthand experiences are important, dammit, and using them as the basis of diplomacy or culture is what should retain primacy over far-distant knowledge! Again: that's as it should be.

Except I'd challenge the assertion that the dwarfs are myopic at best and blindly paranoid and suspicious at worst... for lacking the meta knowledge and the outside-context certainty that we the players do about Warhammer history and myth.

I'd rather play like real people, and like Dwarfs. Furthermore, I'd like to handle quest story-arcs and history in a way that would be compatible with the Dwarf mind, rather than focusing only on achieving a given objective as fast as possible.

Because even if we can reach that objective as fast as possible, that does not mean we should.

There are harms that can be done by going too fast or too weird or too radical, when it comes to being Dwarfs rather than humans.

I'd rather respect that and play with that, and reach the objective as a Dwarf rather ignoring Dwarf values and mindsets.

Like...

... You know how one person went "Huh, are Dwarfs actually comforted by having a Longbeard around to grumble at them and their things?" at some of the Karag Dum updates? That. That sort of thing.

As a human, we might prefer Dwarfs not grumble at us or at stuff. As Dwarfs, we would prefer Dwarfs grumble at us or at stuff. We should not try to change Dwarfs to stop grumbling. Just because we are humans and don't like Longbeard grumbling. We should play with it and embrace that aspect of Dwarf psychology and culture.

And... The paragraph I quoted feels like a human trying to look for rationalizations/ustifications for how/why Dwarfs (or their culture/mindset/psychology) could be rationalized or harnessed to achieve a goal that the human values and knows due to meta knowledge.

I'd rather be... more delicate, sorta, with things than that?
 
- +3 progress to Zhufazul, new totals: [Cost: (4 -3) =1 action]
-- Liquid acts like metal but also water. Boils when heated into a shimmering crimson and silver mist, freezes into something resembling red metallic ice.
-- Freezes at lower temperatures than water.
-- The Brana say the liquid sings with strength, obstinacy, fortitude, honour and other associated emotions. Grimnirzan, Grimnir's Blood, you recall Rudil say when he heard that. Hmph.
...So onto cheerier things - who wants to do a Warrior Of Grimnir Gronti with a functional circulatory system filled with Grimnirzan?
 
Hmm, with the Arm Them, Literally thing Snorri's got going with the Valayan Temple in Drakk, do you think the Temple would allow a Journeyman Runesmith (of-from Snorri's) to do some of the Forged Limb commissions? Not for Thanes, of course, but for those with lower standing, like an ordinary farmer or carpenter.
 
Hmm, with the Arm Them, Literally thing Snorri's got going with the Valayan Temple in Drakk, do you think the Temple would allow a Journeyman Runesmith (of-from Snorri's) to do some of the Forged Limb commissions? Not for Thanes, of course, but for those with lower standing, like an ordinary farmer or carpenter.
Well, that depends if our students prove themselves worthy enough to be trusted enough. We as a Master can't help them after this turn. Not until their trial ends
 
In fact, you know what might be a cool action to pursue, or a way to start this? The way that this ought to be started?

Something like a "Companions of the Warrior" action. Or a "Visiting the Raven Hold" action.

Snorri wandering down to Ravnsvake and looking at the foreign goods directly, maybe meeting an Elf merchant or two. Snorri exchanging tons of letters and tons of dialogue with the merchants of Ravnsvake, about what Elves are like.

Snorri eventually sending missives, exchanging letters, sending lots of ale, to the companions of Grimnir and whomever was at the battle and meeting where Elf and Dwarf fought side by side.

Snorri spending even more time, by hanging out with Brana who have met Elves before. Snorri eventually getting the equivalent of letters or firsthand (er, secondhand?) accounts of how the Sky King sent his people out to meet the Elves to keep them from disaster; both the fact that the Sky King saw this coming, and how/why he decided to do this. In other words, the equivalent of getting information and knowledge from an Ancestor God. Albeit of another, allied, race's. Though again, Ancestor God; a Dwarf Ancestor God would probably be pretty taciturn about such things, so dunno if we'd be able to get direct answers from them. So I suppose instead we'd be talking to the Brana that were sent out to meet the Elves, and trying to form an understanding of the Ancestor God's actions and thoughts that way.

Because that's how a Dwarf, and a Longbeard, does things.

With tons of letters and lots of beer and lots of grumbling discussions with other elders over things.

That's how you get things done in Dwarf society and with Dwarf psychology and values!

You don't do it by doing things the way a human would and the way a human would find things acceptable, and just assume that you can change another race's psychology and values this way!

You don't decide to just do such a huge thing as Elf-Dwarf relations and cooperation. No, you sound things out. You do things slowly.

And maybe you get lucky and an Elf saves a Dwarf in a sailing accident or a hunting accident, or something, or you spend 20 years traveling with an Elf, or one of your Apprentices spends decades travelling with an Elf. And you find out, or hear about and get told, about good things about Elves.

Or maybe something dramatic happens, which influences your judgments or thoughts.

But you don't just decide unilaterally for all of Dwarfkind just because we posters have some meta-knowledge. =/
...So onto cheerier things - who wants to do a Warrior Of Grimnir Gronti with a functional circulatory system filled with Grimnirzan?
Maybe we'll be able to make the statue of Grimnir breathe fire, perhaps?

Or, actually -- I wonder what'd happen if you used some Grimnirzan in a Rune Prosthetic? Either as material or runic ingredient I mean.

i.e. If you put Grimnirzan in such a limb. Or if you just put a Rune of Fire (or Grimnir) on the Prosthetic, and used Grimnirzan as the Runic Ingredient for it.
 
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You watched as the convoy departed, the sounds of travelling songs heard over the slight howl of the wind and the thundering steps of the Gronti following behind them.

The Maiden was a fine creation, utilizing all that you knew of Gronti theory and applying it to something whose purpose could never be seen as something frivolous. Even now as you stare at both creations you can tell Valma's notes and theories were seeming more and more likely. Aye, you had found ways to improve the Master Rune of Waking since creating The Miner, but there was little doubt in your mind that the newer Gronti benefitted from its more anatomically accurate structure.

The key, you found, was to envision the body beneath the armour. You could sculpt it wholesale as one piece or create the body only as you had with the Maiden then layer actual armour overtop. The point remained that as long as the statue's proportions and outward musculature worked the Rune performed better.

Still, a part of you felt a great deal of embarrassment over your creation of the Maiden. Nothing egregious mind you, but the point was to be, at least outwardly, anatomically accurate. Thankfully you didn't need to get overly detailed about it beyond the musculature, and even then it still felt just a tad...scandalous.

Prudish? Perhaps, but a Dwarf of your age and circumstances shouldn't have to care about those kinds of proportions or...places!

BAH!

The things you do...

Ow, she's a brick house
She's mighty-mighty, just lettin' it all hang out
She's a brick house
That lady's stacked and that's a fact
Ain't holding nothing back

Ow, she's a brick house
Well put-together, everybody knows
This is how the story goes
 
Do we have any confirmation that anything beyond "sculpt the surface with great detail." Will enhance a Gronti?

Adding in more thibgs like organ analogues, blood analogue and so on with all the runes and msterials itd need feels like more investment than payout/recreating the warforged.
 
...So onto cheerier things - who wants to do a Warrior Of Grimnir Gronti with a functional circulatory system filled with Grimnirzan?
I mean, it'd be cool I guess, but...why? To try and simulate Dawi anatomy and further stimulate the Rune of Awakening more? As some kind of power source? I'd be fine with it, but I'd like there to be some kind of function to go with the form.
 
Not to mention, that without fancy tech or magic...im not sure how any dawi would have detailed enough knowledge of tbeir inner workings to replicate them without...'desecrating the dead' i imagine itd be called.
 
Not to mention, that without fancy tech or magic...im not sure how any dawi would have detailed enough knowledge of tbeir inner workings to replicate them without...'desecrating the dead' i imagine itd be called.
Eh, doubt that'd be too much of an issue, consult some Valayans and...Gazulians? Whatever you want to call them, and we'd probably be good on that front.
 
[X] Plan The Hearth Watch

Okay, wow that was a ton of progress for other stuff from doing odd research. That changes up my view entirely on how to proceed this coming turn.

Turn 34 thoughts:
Zhufazul - 1 action finishes this
Dronril, Dronwut- 3 actions (turns into 6!) finishes this or 2 actions with 3 expertise (45 favor spent) and 1 action into places of the odd

I think I favor
- [ ] Odd Places 9/10 1 action
- [ ] Zhufazul 1 action
- [ ] Dronril, Dronwut 2 actions
--[ ] Craftsdwarf Expertise x 3
We can only do up to 4 expertise so we need to spend two actions on Dronril and Dronwut anyways which triggers Soul of Earth turning 2 into 3, so 3 expertise to finish, 4 if we want overflow of 1. We have a lot of favor (over 400) so spending 45 or 60 is not going to hurt and is going to relive the favor burden slightly on the other dwarves

That finishes two more odd materials and with the favor expenditure version gets us another odd material. Those two odd materials are likely to proc more bonuses to other research and if we can knock one off of understanding Valayas rune we can then take 3 actions on turn 35 to finish it up.

Journeyman of Odd is a 3->5
Soul of Earth is 2->3 and 4->6
Combined we have 2->3, 3->6, 4->8 of note 3 and 4 are the most efficient action wise
Mind for Constructs is 3->4
Mind and Journeyman is 3->6

New research action costs:
Suneater's Brain 4 actions, 3->5
Chrimera Autopsy 4 actions, 3->5
Firebirds Feather 2 actions, 1 and 1
Wardstones 5 actions 3->5
Secrets of Light Pt 2 6 actions 3->5 and 1
Diction Direction Pt. 2 7 actions 3->5 and 2
The Movement of Things Pt. 4 8 actions 3->6 and 2
The Mind of Things Pt. 3 7 actions 3->6 and 1
The Happening of Things 8 actions 3->5 and (1,1,1 or 3->5)
The Rune Metal Pt. 5 10 actions 4->8 and 2->3 or 3->6 and 3->6 (latter is 1 more overflow)
The Rune Metal Pt. 1b 6 actions 3->6
Understand Valaya's Runes 6 actions 3->5 and 1
Akazit ???? New Research
 
Eh, doubt that'd be too much of an issue, consult some Valayans and...Gazulians? Whatever you want to call them, and we'd probably be good on that front.
Thats what i thought but i didnt want to assune they'd have enough detailed records from surgeries snd the like without verfication since they afaik dont have anything thatd make obtaining such knowledge easy and non-invasive
 
You know reading that bit about the Hearthstone they seem very well disposed for infrastructure level area runes than they do even jewelery. I mean bigger stones effecting a larger area and being able to coordinate with other stones nearby to expand and augment their effect? All that is basically just asking for a Hold sized Hearth Ward Rune project.

Maybe something like a core or central hearthstone with a Master Rune of Valaya combo and multiple lesser runed hearthstones spread around the hold to connect with, extend and amplify the effect? If that works the next step would be making an above ground equivalent for the Branna on the mountain top.
 
You know reading that bit about the Hearthstone they seem very well disposed for infrastructure level area runes than they do even jewelery. I mean bigger stones effecting a larger area and being able to coordinate with other stones nearby to expand and augment their effect? All that is basically just asking for a Hold sized Hearth Ward Rune project.

Maybe something like a core or central hearthstone with a Master Rune of Valaya combo and multiple lesser runed hearthstones spread around the hold to connect with, extend and amplify the effect? If that works the next step would be making an above ground equivalent for the Branna on the mountain top.
I'd thought of irrigation and aqueducts of Healing Spring water, and the farming of Durazkul via that irrigation, but this is also sounding reasonable.

We'd probably want to do the Runes of Valaya for that -- Load-Bearing especially, sounds like the sort of thing good for infrastructure and architecture; like those Pillars of her's in Karaz-a-Karak -- and see if that opens up any opportunities for hold warding and the like.

... Ack. Wait. Speaking of Hold Warding, we actually have those Wardstones from Karag Dum too! Those are definitely for warding holds, so... ... Ack, oh dang. Another reason to want to finish those Karag Dum Ward research; so that when the New Karag Dum hold gets built, we can add a Runelord's expertise and experience levels of prowess for any such Dum Wards that get made.

Although those Wards would also be useful for any Kraka. And for the Brana aeries on top of the Krakas. In fact, maybe the Brana homes would find more usefulness from that, because comparatively Brana aeries are less defended than Dwarf Holds which are inside mountains?

... Also, I want to make a stealth-talisman for an individual Brana, too.

See what happens when you get not just a flying death, but an invisible flying death.
 
The Gronti will be taken to their highest peak of power when Snorri learns how to implement jiggle physics.
Imagine a commission for a male gronti:

Snorri: And I was thinking 6 inches but I could make it a little bigger if you like.
Commissioner: 6 Inches? That's a tiny height for a gronti!
Snorri: I wasn't talking about the height...
Commissioner: Well it's still a very short beard!
Maybe it'd be best to taken the ken doll approach and accept the loss in power.
 
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