Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Shadowwarp · Jun 27, 2019

Kiba said:
I am confused.

This has probably already been answered but I will do it my way anyway just in case this is still somehow an argument 100 messages in

Hazo: Want to screw over the Hyuga?

Hagromo: I would love to but those white-eyed elitists have us by the balls financially

Hazo: Why not vote against them anyway?

Hagromo: Because they basically own us and screwing over Hiashi Hyuga would likely be the end of my clan? Why would I be stupid enough to vote against him with no real gain outside of petty vengeance?

Hazo: What if we pay off your debt to them so that they can't use that against you?

Hagromo: Shit you right

Hagromo vote get

Emstar · Jun 27, 2019

Raxner said:
By the way, you mentioned that part of the reason for having a Hidden Village is "preventing each other from dying every week or so." Well, if Hyuuga's going to use threats of violence against whole Clans to get his way, doesn't that sort of defeat the entire purpose of being the Village Hidden in the Cucumbers, or whatever? We're pretty much back in the Warring States period.

In general you are quite right. The functional difference is whether or not complaining about the treason and/or assassinations is going to end up mattering.

WRT the Hagoromo, the point is many-fold. Here's one possible set of questions:

Who even finds out they get assassinated by Hyuuga-bought assassins?
- Do the people who do find out stand much to gain from making a fuss about this?
  - Will people listen to them or decry this as crappy political hearsay and rumor mongering?
    - If they do listen, what do they have to gain from making a fuss about it?
  - Will the folks who may or may not be in on this-- Hiashi's contingent in this case-- react poorly to this?
  - Would starting a fuss about this result in the deaths of people you actually care about?
    - Would it start a civil war and kill most of your friends?

That's a lot of questions that need to mostly be answered in the affirmative or negative before you start any proceedings there.

Now, to a lot of folks this might be a moot point. Us for example: if Hiashi stealth assassinates us, its entirely possible that Naruto will follow through on his threat and shove his fist through the man's chest. ISC might raise all manner of hell for Hiashi behind the scenes. Tsunade may decide that he is too much of a selfish prick to keep on living and turn him into strawberry jam. etc.

It's entirely possible that the answer to the Hagoromo question though is "Nobody really cares enough about them to risk their necks for it." because that's the sort of universe this is. I'm not saying they do or don't have anyone that would step up to bat for them, I'm just saying that its an open question.

Raxner · Jun 27, 2019

MMKII said:
WRT the Hagoromo, the point is many-fold. Here's one possible set of questions:

Who even finds out they get assassinated by Hyuuga-bought assassins?

Do the people who do find out stand much to gain from making a fuss about this?

Will people listen to them or decry this as crappy political hearsay and rumor mongering?

If they do listen, what do they have to gain from making a fuss about it?

Will the folks who may or may not be in on this-- Hiashi's contingent in this case-- react poorly to this?

Would starting a fuss about this result in the deaths of people you actually care about?

Would it start a civil war and kill most of your friends?

That's a lot of questions that need to mostly be answered in the affirmative or negative before you start any proceedings there.

Now, to a lot of folks this might be a moot point. Us for example: if Hiashi stealth assassinates us, its entirely possible that Naruto will follow through on his threat and shove his fist through the man's chest. ISC might raise all manner of hell for Hiashi behind the scenes. Tsunade may decide that he is too much of a selfish prick to keep on living and turn him into strawberry jam. etc.

It's entirely possible that the answer to the Hagoromo question though is "Nobody really cares enough about them to risk their necks for it." because that's the sort of universe this is. I'm not saying they do or don't have anyone that would step up to bat for them, I'm just saying that its an open question.

Well, as I said to @Byzantine279, if this is a strategy that's available to the Hyuuga, then it's available to them against anyone, not just someone that owes them a lot of money. If it's a strategy that's available to them against anyone, then that's a lot of people--powerful ninja people--that have a reason to take notice. So it's a strategy that leads straight to Boss Hyuuga being prosecuted, or a civil war between Clan Hyuuga & Co and Everyone Else. Or, I suppose, Hyuuga quickly becoming the unofficial King of Leaf.

Since none of those things have happened, I think it's highly unlikely that this is a strategy that is available to Hyuuga against ninja that don't owe him money, and therefore that it's highly unlikely that it's available to him against ninja that do owe him money. Therefore, it's highly unlikely (in my opinion) to be the nature of his leverage over Clan Hogoromo (or however you spell their name).

Byzantine · Jun 27, 2019

Raxner said:
Well, as I said to @Byzantine279, if this is a strategy that's available to the Hyuuga, then it's available to them against anyone, not just someone that owes them a lot of money. If it's a strategy that's available to them against anyone, then that's a lot of people--powerful ninja people--that have a reason to take notice. So it's a strategy that leads straight to Boss Hyuuga being prosecuted, or a civil war between Clan Hyuuga & Co and Everyone Else. Or, I suppose, Hyuuga quickly becoming the unofficial King of Leaf.

Since none of those things have happened, I think it's highly unlikely that this is a strategy that is available to Hyuuga against ninja that don't owe him money, and therefore that it's highly unlikely that it's available to him against ninja that do owe him money. Therefore, it's highly unlikely (in my opinion) to be the nature of his leverage over Clan Hogoromo (or however you spell their name).

I expect it's quite high risk - but none of the others will be betraying them, escaping their orbit, then spitting in their face all at once. They have to weigh the possibility of the Hyuuga deciding to take irrational actions for revenge, while the rest of the voters on our side aren't in a relationship that means the Hyuuga would be particularly pissed at them.

Do not get me wrong - I do not expect it to happen. I'm just saying that it isn't unreasonable for the Hagomoro to belief their actions carry some risk.

Halberdier · Jun 27, 2019

@Noumero @faflec @MMKII

So, a lot of our plans lately have called for everyone in the clan to be running around doing stuff. Which, totally fair, we need to get organized, and set the clan up, and the upcoming Hokage vote is important. But rather than calling frequent clan meetings and everyone doing organizing stuff, shouldn't we have some of our clan doing missions right about now? If we have 90% of clan money, and seal patent, all available on condition to us after taking missions, and we need money, shouldn't we just take missions? Getting minions is important, adopting the second person doesn't need to happen in the next few days (even just before the end of January gets us that rebate, yes?).

I know there was talk about paying for missions, or putting bounties on our own missions, which is probably looked down upon. But if we're trying to do good press for Goketsu, and get money, would just having Noburi and Akane out doing C ranks while we figure out land clearing, for example, be worth it? Just seems like daily meetings work against that. Or am I way off base?

faflec · Jun 27, 2019

Halberdier said:
@Noumero @faflec @MMKII

So, a lot of our plans lately have called for everyone in the clan to be running around doing stuff. Which, totally fair, we need to get organized, and set the clan up, and the upcoming Hokage vote is important. But rather than calling frequent clan meetings and everyone doing organizing stuff, shouldn't we have some of our clan doing missions right about now? If we have 90% of clan money, and seal patent, all available on condition to us after taking missions, and we need money, shouldn't we just take missions? Getting minions is important, adopting the second person doesn't need to happen in the next few days (even just before the end of January gets us that rebate, yes?).

I know there was talk about paying for missions, or putting bounties on our own missions, which is probably looked down upon. But if we're trying to do good press for Goketsu, and get money, would just having Noburi and Akane out doing C ranks while we figure out land clearing, for example, be worth it? Just seems like daily meetings work against that. Or am I way off base?

It may or may not be more efficient to grab that bonus cash as opposed to just scribing Skywalkers. The latter makes a lot of money/time spent relative to, say, till'n'fills, and the missions that make more carry with it a lot of risk.

TaliesinSkye · Jun 27, 2019

MMKII said:
Hmm. You seem to believe rather a lot of things then. You should be upfront about this sort of thing in discussion, if you're just going to respond to most things with "I don't believe that is the case." and doggedly insist upon your opinions being axiomatically correct.

First of all, don't be an ass. It's uncalled for. Do it again and I won't bother discussing anything with you.

If you had presented evidence that any of my assertions were false and I just went 'lalala can't hear you' you'd have a point, but you haven't bothered to do that. If you have any evidence to present I'm happy to look at it and re-evaluate my positions if necessary, because I have intellectual integrity.

But you didn't do that and told a lie about my unwillingness to listen to evidence, and I find that personally offensive.

Furthermore, let's examine these supported 'axiomatic' statements you seem to have such a problem with.

"Hiring assassins against another clan poses an unacceptable risk of Hiashi getting caught and executed for treason anyway. Possibly with the rest of the Hyuuga. It wouldn't be hard to get caught."

While we haven't seen a statute explicitly declaring it illegal for one clan to murder or make war on another clan in leaf, I would be deeply surprised if one did not exist given the comprehensive nature of the rules we have seen. Outlawing murder is pretty much the first thing most polities do. Further, we've seen that Hokages have vast authority. It is not a stretch that declaring treason and punishing treason with death is well within that authority.

"I don't believe mission providers have any choice over who accepts missions."
So far every mission we've seen went to the first ninja to accept it. Perhaps they could demand particular people if those people consented. I don't recall an example in the story of someone trying. Demanding that anyone but particular people do something seems like the sort of thing that might annoy the Hokage and get overruled.

"Attempting to coerce businesses in this way also risks the coalition against Hiashi retaliating by making it clear they won't do business with businesses that do business with Hiashi. Hiashi's leverage by threatening to take his business elsewhere unless businesses do what he wants has limits because Hiashi's business isn't the only business around."

This is pure explanation. There's no bald assertions here.

"I don't believe clan heads can order the Tower's administration around. That's the Hokage's remit, and he'd be free to ignore any allegations he likes and even make a judgement against Hiashi for spurious claims that waste the Tower's time."

This has been covered in the story. The council elects the Hokage, but then the Hokage runs the Tower administration. Hiashi can't issue orders to Tower departments if he's not Hokage.

"And I have no idea how you think he'd repossess a house without him both holding the loan on it and them having defaulted on the mortgage. That's not how that works."

The explanation for this statement is right there. To have a right to repossess something you conventionally need to be the holder of the secured loan and the borrower needs to have defaulted. A third party can't do it, and they certainly can't do it just because they feel like it without any default having occurred.

I'll be blunt, I think you owe me an apology.

Rihaku said:
For example, Naruto could wage economic warfare on any clan by underbidding them for all missions of the type their shinobi are suited for, crushing their conditional benefits and thus strangling their income.

Could Naruto complete missions ranging outside the Leaf with just clones? I'm not sure that would be workable. Maybe some mission types, like delivering things, but probably not anything involving combat. While potentially effective in numbers clones have the popping problem if they take any hit at all.

And that's assuming he didn't run into a range limit, I'm not sure whether shadow clone has one. I can't find anything on the wiki about it or clone range limitations in general but I feel like it's come up at some point.

Emstar · Jun 27, 2019

Halberdier said:
@Noumero @faflec @MMKII

So, a lot of our plans lately have called for everyone in the clan to be running around doing stuff. Which, totally fair, we need to get organized, and set the clan up, and the upcoming Hokage vote is important. But rather than calling frequent clan meetings and everyone doing organizing stuff, shouldn't we have some of our clan doing missions right about now? If we have 90% of clan money, and seal patent, all available on condition to us after taking missions, and we need money, shouldn't we just take missions? Getting minions is important, adopting the second person doesn't need to happen in the next few days (even just before the end of January gets us that rebate, yes?).

I know there was talk about paying for missions, or putting bounties on our own missions, which is probably looked down upon. But if we're trying to do good press for Goketsu, and get money, would just having Noburi and Akane out doing C ranks while we figure out land clearing, for example, be worth it? Just seems like daily meetings work against that. Or am I way off base?

We have 10 million ryo in the bank, which should be enough to last us the next 2 months conservatively speaking. I'm not quite sure this is really worth it, since $$$ is very much a mid term issue.

We've spent a decent amount of time info gathering, now we need to hit the ground running doing stuff with other people. Politicking, cementing relations, building up a network of contacts/agents, making deals, etc.

JevvyPython · Jun 27, 2019

In the spirit of Rihaku's work I feel the urge to point out the other three relationships here other than the one between Clanless and Clan Ninja.

Ninja Benefit Recipients v. Civilian Taxpayers. Each benefits Ninja is a tax drain on the Hokage paying zero income tax, getting positive income tax and a significant state equipment allowance. If you add Clanless Ninja to the benefits system you're tying them straight into the system that exploits the civilians of everything above subsistence.
Clan Ninja v. Their Clan Head. They still have to pay taxes and their Clan Head gets control over the rebates and bonuses he might dole back out to them if he feels like it. This strengthens the authority of Clan Heads, focuses power in the Clans as institutions and could leave some Clan ninja (branch Hyuuga?) just as exploited financially as Clanless Chunin and Genin.
Founding Clans v. Minor Clans. The 8 Founding Clans get 70% of the Equipment Benefits pool which is an equipment draw from the Tower's supplies usually used for expensive Seals. This leaves the Founding Clan ninja visibly better equipped presumably with associated lower casualty rates and higher income enabled by that equipment. (I may misunderstand this, it'd be surprising if their advantage was limited entirely to equipment.)

The first issue is something of a problem, but it also creates a useful incentive. On the whole it makes sense for ninja to benefit from long term wealth building in their village's nation. If they hadn't joined a village they'd get all their mission pay, plus whatever they could steal. If Hazou could demonstrate how Uplift raises Civilian net taxes he can build a wide base of support for supporting most of his projects with this system. With a bigger pool a sympathetic Hokage could use the opportunity to lower Civilian marginal taxes a little and bring the Clanless Chunin and Genin into the benefits system.

On the second issue, if the Hokage did treat Clanless Ninja equally then with no real taxes you create a wider case of the dilemma Clanless Jounin face joining Clans. Clanless Ninja get all of their rebates and bonuses to themselves, a Clan Ninja gets whatever their Clan Head feels like giving them. You might see Clanless Ninja ending up better off than Ninja from poorer Clans. Assuming the Hokage wouldn't just abolish Ninja taxes if no-one really pays them anymore. This new norm could effect the authority and liquid wealth of Clan Heads substantially (which might be a reason they came up with taxing Clanless to begin with) and even effect the viability of the Clan System as a whole.

On the third issue Hazou's ongoing project to train Ninja in Sealing is going to shake this up by lowering prices. The obvious strategy to me is just fighting to keep the Equipment Stipends static (fairly easy with a non-Founding Sarutobi as Hokage and a majority Minor Clan Council) and lowering taxes/raising mission bonuses for all Ninja so they can afford to spend more on equipment. The real obstacle is the Tower's Seal Tax and First Buyer privileges mean Seal production has to reach saturation of the Founding Clan's Equipment Stipends before increased supply can reach everyone else. For now the system does create a happy incentive that the richest and most powerful people in the village benefit disproportionately from wider Sealing training though so that's something that could be exploited.

Byzantine · Jun 27, 2019

[X] Action Plan:

Twinnstars · Jun 27, 2019

[X] Action Plan:

Halberdier · Jun 27, 2019

faflec said:
It may or may not be more efficient to grab that bonus cash as opposed to just scribing Skywalkers. The latter makes a lot of money/time spent relative to, say, till'n'fills, and the missions that make more carry with it a lot of risk.

Yes, which is why I mentioned Noburi and Akane specifically, since they can't make Skywalkers. The risk of missions is fair, although that's always the case, and being seen shying away from missions because of that doesn't look good (even if that isn't why). Shame Keiko is now indisposed, because otherwise the 3 of them would make a team with a KAN do attitude

faflec · Jun 27, 2019

Halberdier said:
Yes, which is why I mentioned Noburi and Akane specifically, since they can't make Skywalkers. The risk of missions is fair, although that's always the case, and being seen shying away from missions because of that doesn't look good (even if that isn't why). Shame Keiko is now indisposed, because otherwise the 3 of them would make a team with a KAN do attitude

At that point the question becomes "Is Akane's/Noburi's time best spent increasing our monthly income by __%, as opposed to doing other things?". Personally, given how much we'd be getting through Skywalkers, as well as their current duties of training Summoning/getting minions, I don't think so.

Inferno Vulpix · Jun 27, 2019

~~[X] Action Plan:~~

Eaglejarl expressed dissatisfaction with the Lee scene. Perhaps more focus could be spent on the things we want to talk with Lee about, rather than let the Ami-style training appear to be the focus of the scene?

Halberdier · Jun 27, 2019

MMKII said:
We have 10 million ryo in the bank, which should be enough to last us the next 2 months conservatively speaking. I'm not quite sure this is really worth it, since $$$ is very much a mid term issue.

We've spent a decent amount of time info gathering, now we need to hit the ground running doing stuff with other people. Politicking, cementing relations, building up a network of contacts/agents, making deals, etc.

faflec said:
At that point the question becomes "Is Akane's/Noburi's time best spent increasing our monthly income by __%, as opposed to doing other things?". Personally, given how much we'd be getting through Skywalkers, as well as their current duties of training Summoning/getting minions, I don't think so.

Fair enough, just thought I'd raise it. Though, did we actually talk to Keiko about her definitely teaching Noburi summoning? I know we asked initially, and she tried to defer it, but I don't know if we ever followed through on that/I don't believe Noburi is currently learning Summoning yet.

Lailoken · Jun 27, 2019

TaliesinSkye said:
It's a MASSIVE sum they owe the Hyuuga. Them wanting it as a bribe for the vote and joining the winning coalition is absurd. We're offering to liberate them. They should jump at the chance.

Hiashi's counteroffer: "Vote for me and I'll just forgive the debt entirely."

We need to remember that we aren't the only players in the game.

faflec · Jun 27, 2019

Lailoken said:
Hiashi's counteroffer: "Vote for me and I'll just forgive the debt entirely."

We need to remember that we aren't the only players in the game.

Indeed.

One obvious countersolution (apart from hoping that the Hagoromo would want to spite the Hyuga more than taking the risk that they'd screw them in some other fashion) is to keep the agreed-upon deal secret until after the elections, and/or faking tensions between the Hagoromo and our faction.

Byzantine · Jun 27, 2019

I think he's been pulling their leash too hard and too often to play that card and have it work in his favor if he does it after our deal with them.

eaglejarl · Jun 27, 2019

Jello_Raptor said:
So the income stream from the tower is split between all clans? not just council clans? Are you counting clanless jounin as clans for these purposes?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Jello_Raptor said:
That makes more sense, but I'd like QM confirmation on whether that's how it works

Confirmed.

Byzantine279 said:
You are still confused. The 17 voting clans don't share, but Hazo slightly exaggerated the number of clans directly affected (Because EJ didn't actually remember the exact count, and it wasn't important.)

I'm not sure we had actually decided on the number at the time.

Regardless, you are mistaken.

There is a certain amount of money that is paid to clans every month. (Clanless jōnin are paid as though they were single-member clans, but they obviously are not actually clans.)
There are N clans in Leaf. The precise value of N is still being discussed among the QMs, but it's measured in low dozens. The tax payments are divided among all N clans + clanless jōnin.
Of those N clans, 8 are founding clans. All of them have a seat on the Clan Council.
There are 17 seats on the Clan Council. Arithmetic says that 9 of those seats belong to non-founding clans.
The tax payments given to the clans are divided into two pools.
1. The first pool is 70% of the total. This pool is divided among the founding clans.
2. The second pool is 30% of the total. This pool is divided among the N-8 non-founding clans plus the clanless jōnin. Yes, that includes the non-founding clans who do not have a seat on the council.
The payments are not a lump sum. The Gōketsu actually receive R382,700 per month, but for the sake of easy math let's say that they get R100,000. This money is divided as follows:
1. R10,000: Cash at the start of the month, paid to the Clan Head. (i.e. Hazō.)
2. R90,000: Maintained in an account at the Tower. You can claim money from this account in the following ways:
  1. Up to R13,500: Equipment draw from the Tower at Tower rates. This can be seals, uniforms, kunai, etc. This is equipment, NOT cash.
  2. Up to R67,500: 50% bonus pay+tax refund on missions. Ninja pay 80% taxes on missions. If Noburi takes a mission where the client paid R10,000 then Noburi pays R8,000 in taxes and collects R2,000 when he finishes the mission. The Tower pays the Clan Head (Hazō) R5,000 bonus pay on that mission. They also give Hazō R8,000 as a refund of the taxes.
  3. Up to R9,000. Various other stuff that hasn't been defined yet. Basically wiggle room that the QMs are leaving ourselves.
3. Money that you do not claim from that R90,000 reverts to the Tower at the end of the month.

That's clan payments. Now let's talk seals:

Every sealmaster in Leaf must pay a monthly tax to the Tower in the form of seals -- a certain number of explosives, a certain number of storage seals, etc. They are not paid for these seals.
A sealmaster may sell seals to the Tower. This money is paid in cash on the barrelhead.
A sealmaster may sell seals to Leaf residents with the following provisos:
1. Skywalkers may only be sold to the Tower, no exceptions.
2. The Tower gets right of first refusal on all sales. If they refuse then they give you a ticket marking this seal as viable for sale.
A sealmaster who invents a seal may register it with the Tower. Anyone else who makes that seal and sells it must pay X% of the price to the Tower. That money ("the royalties") will be added to the following month's tax payout to the sealmaster's clan[1] in the standard format of 10% non-conditional cash and 90% into the conditional-payments account.

Until now we've said that X% = 50%. That might need to be modified in order to ensure that it's still profitable for people to make those seals.

[1] There are probably some clanless sealmasters and/or technique hackers who are not jōnin; this isn't a thing we had considered, but IMO they should receive tax payments the same as the jōnin.

Kiba said:
They are going to vote no, which will mean that the Hyuga will try to retaliate after the election. So no, they aren't trying to be lazy not working for their own money. It's the price they're asking for since they are going to risk their neck out for us.

This exactly. (Well, if I'm being pedantic then they aren't voting "no", they're voting for a different candidate. Same thing as far as Hyūga is concerned.)

Rihaku said:
My current understanding (which may be incorrect) is this:

1) Royalties collected from seals you have patented equal 50% of the gross revenue of those seals sold to the Kage's Office by other sealmasters. Royalty income is in the 10% + 90% format described above. (Though note that 15% of that latter 90% is in Equipment Credit immediately redeemable and 10% of that latter 90% is in various miscellaneous benefits, so only ~65% of the income thereof is actually contingent on fulfilling your mission quota)

2) Income from seals you produce and sell to the Kage's Office directly is paid out as cash.

This all matches my understanding barring the above mention of maybe needing to change the 50% in order to ensure profitability for everyone involved.

TaliesinSkye said:
Well, the strings we're attaching are that they support our choices for the hat and ally themselves with us in exchange for the massive bribe. But that's considerably less bad than the strings that Hiashi has attached to them.

TaliesinSkye said:
Yes. Although I think there's at least some possibility that the 2,000,000r is more than the debt because they think they've got us over a barrel and see a chance to turn their problem into a profit. It'd be good if someone (maybe Keiko or Shikamaru) could figure out if that's the case so we're not cheated unnecessarily.

You keep using combative language such as 'bribe' and 'got us over a barrel'. It's not an invalid way to look at it, but I would suggest that it's not the most productive way. A better way (IMO) would be to view this as comparative advantage between clans in the process of forming an alliance. You have cash and need council votes, manpower, and connections inside Leaf. They have those things and need cash.

TaliesinSkye said:
Something I'd like to know is how Hiashi might try to hurt them without having the loan or the hat to jerk them around with. That's the missing part of this puzzle. Where exactly is all the risk there coming from? How could Hiashi hurt another clan without doing something that's going to get him prosecuted?

It's not a 100% accurate analogy, but think about what a real-world company such as Microsoft would do to an opponent company. Buying up needed resources, hiring away key contractors, arranging for important suppliers to boycott them, etc.

Raxner said:
Clan Hogoromo (or however you spell their name).

Hagoromo. The first vowel is an 'A', the rest are 'O'.

Ipsos Custodes said:
Compare "take over this debt" in the original post to "It's not "take over the loan"" in the clarification second post.

That's why we're confused and are trying to work out angles that you're saying aren't really on the table.

@eaglejarl can you edit the original thread marked info post so that it's less confusing?

You're right, that was confusing. Original post fixed.

Noumero said:
I'll remove the Ami section. Anything in particular you would consider exciting?

Talking to Yakuza or actually starting on the land-clearing project would be pretty cool.

Jello_Raptor said:
I'm working on going through a lot of the previous updates and QM posts to collate a lot of info for the Hokage vote, our finances, and general leaf economics. (See the draft here, I'd appreciate comments and corrections)

This is great. Thank you.

Jello_Raptor said:
@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail:

So far there's a few questions that have come up. More will probably appear as I go further back and start looking at non-threadmarked posts, but this should do for now.

In chapter 270 Hazou says: "We're messing with the livelihood of two dozen ninja clans, who collectively have a controlling voting block on the Clan Council." [2]

But there are only 17 clans on the council <_<'

See above. There are 9 non-founding clans who have seats on the CC.

Jello_Raptor said:
Goo Bombs scale based on sealmaster skill, does their categorization as Genin, Chunin, or Jounin seals (for pricing purposes) vary based on the person producing them?

I'm waiting to hear back from the other QMs on whether seals are rated or sealmasters are rated.

Jello_Raptor said:
In [4] you mention skywalkers as 4 element scenes, but earlier in [8] you mention that they are 2 element seals? Which is it?

Skywalkers are 2-element seals. They need to be used in pairs, meaning that making a complete set is 4 elements. The Tower will in fact buy an odd number of them, but they prefer sets.

Jello_Raptor said:
In [8] you mention (implicitly) that ~2/3 of our sealing income from the tower isn't given to us as cash but into a credit account w/ the tower.

I recall a more explicit mention of how that works somewhere, but haven't found it yet as I've been collating info. Do you recall where this is?

How can we use the money in the credit account?

Can we get a promissory note from the tower that we can trade? Or some similar arrangement where we transfer Tower credit from one owner to another?

See above. Hopefully that answers all of this.

Lailoken · Jun 27, 2019

Byzantine279 said:
I think he's been pulling their leash too hard and too often to play that card and have it work in his favor if he does it after our deal with them.

I'm not as sure of that. It would be basically giving them tens of millions, cash-in-hand. I may like some people more than others, but if one is offering to refinance my crippling debt on less onerous terms I might be able to pay off in thirty years, and the other is offering to just completely wipe it clean, I'm probably going to pick the latter. Refusing would require their being some sort of terrible fiend guilty of utterly unforgivable atrocities such as chewing with their mouth open, and if there's one thing the Hyuuga know, it's etiquette.

Emstar · Jun 27, 2019

Lailoken said:
I'm not as sure of that. It would be basically giving them tens of millions, cash-in-hand. I may like some people more than others, but if one is offering to refinance my crippling debt on less onerous terms I might be able to pay off in thirty years, and the other is offering to just completely wipe it clean, I'm probably going to pick the latter. Refusing would require their being some sort of terrible fiend guilty of utterly unforgivable atrocities such as chewing with their mouth open, and if there's one thing the Hyuuga know, it's etiquette.

We're pretty much just going to pay off their loans for them, and the only thing they need to do is continue hating Hiashi's guts, but now they need to do this while wearing "Gouketsu are the bomb!" T-shirts.

Oneiros · Jun 27, 2019

eaglejarl said:
Talking to Yakuza or actually starting on the land-clearing project would be pretty cool

Problem with talking to the Yakuza is we don't anything about the Leaf Yakuza. Or if we can even contact the Mist Yakuza. I'm personally in favor of continuing to grow our current relationship with the Mist group since we already have a working relationship plus the fact they will need active support to take control of fire countries underworld

Inferno Vulpix · Jun 27, 2019

Oneiros said:
Problem with talking to the Yakuza is we don't anything about the Leaf Yakuza. Or if we can even contact the Mist Yakuza. I'm personally in favor of continuing to grow our current relationship with the Mist group since we already have a working relationship plus the fact they will need active support to take control of fire countries underworld

So it might be worth it to investigate the Leaf Yakuza (in indirect non-confrontational ways of course) as preparation for either cooperating with them or helping the Mist Yakuza oust them. What do you all think? This sounds like something that'd be right at home in the Plan Cache, being something we want to do SoonTM but not necessarily in the upcoming plan.

faflec · Jun 27, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
So it might be worth it to investigate the Leaf Yakuza (in indirect non-confrontational ways of course) as preparation for either cooperating with them or helping the Mist Yakuza oust them. What do you all think? This sounds like something that'd be right at home in the Plan Cache, being something we want to do SoonTM but not necessarily in the upcoming plan.

Seems reasonable. IIRC Mari said she was starting to look into the underground via Jiraiya's notes, which may get us some idea on the Yakuza and how we'd make contact with them. Though given the optics of associating with the Yakuza it may or may not be wise for us (read: everyone not Mari) to actually make contact. Probably. Maybe. I dunno how the Yakuza are viewed from the public/clan eye here, I'm not a 12th century ninja

Oneiros · Jun 27, 2019

I'd really like to send the Mist Oyabun a message letting him know the situation and ask for him to send a representative to negotiate. We could do this today. Just have Kenta go with Akane as an escort. Could even start salt and ice production since they would reach the coast

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