- Location
- Yes.
Feels to me to be 2 big scenes: the clan meeting and the Naruto meeting? I dunno.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
[X] Action Plan: Party Growth
I think it's perfectly reasonable to adopt Tenten without running it by the guy who's about to be Clan Head. I am significantly less sure about Lee without even getting his thoughts on the matter first, but I can't imagine he'll be against it, and I'd be surprised if any of the other established Clans started adopting clanless ninja that quickly.
I am perfectly happy to endorse Naruto as Clan Head if that's what he wants - aside from the huge prestige boost, Jiraiya makes a good point in that the guy's bee trained for pretty much exactly this for the last 15 years. I suspect him not being Clan Head would make his bid for the hat a bit shakier. Ultimately, I believe that the opportunities this affords us significantly outweighs any agency loss.
I also agree that trying to convince Naruto he should stay an Uzumaki indefinitely is entirely a non-starter. Looking into him staying one until the vote is called is a different matter, but this is again exactly the sort of question it's likely a good idea to ask the guy who's been training to handle this exact sort of thing for 15 years. We want to know whether the Clans will stand for it, whether the extra vote will outweigh any outrage they might have at apparent vote-rigging? Naruto will know.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to adopt Tenten without running it by the guy who's about to be Clan Head. I am significantly less sure about Lee without even getting his thoughts on the matter first, but I can't imagine he'll be against it, and I'd be surprised if any of the other established Clans started adopting clanless ninja that quickly.
I am perfectly happy to endorse Naruto as Clan Head if that's what he wants - aside from the huge prestige boost, Jiraiya makes a good point in that the guy's bee trained for pretty much exactly this for the last 15 years. I suspect him not being Clan Head would make his bid for the hat a bit shakier. Ultimately, I believe that the opportunities this affords us significantly outweighs any agency loss.
I also agree that trying to convince Naruto he should stay an Uzumaki indefinitely is entirely a non-starter. Looking into him staying one until the vote is called is a different matter, but this is again exactly the sort of question it's likely a good idea to ask the guy who's been training to handle this exact sort of thing for 15 years. We want to know whether the Clans will stand for it, whether the extra vote will outweigh any outrage they might have at apparent vote-rigging? Naruto will know.
I remain quietly hopeful that Secret Contingency #38: Summoning My Soul Back To This Snake-Shaped Phylactery will make this relevant at some point.
- Location
- Europe
Sure, but we shouldn't give him Clan head status until he proved that he is more than Jiraiya's fantasy golden boy.
That's not my analysis, Jiraiya failed:
[X] Action Plan: Party Growth
Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Before you start badmouthing Jaraiya, please note: he successfully grabbed the Hokage's hat under extremely shady circumstances, and held on to it until he died of unrelated causes. He brokered a marriage alliance with the Nara which is currently saving our collective asses by giving us three council votes and has made Keiko the wife of the Nara Clan Head. He made the Goketsu pretty much out of thin air, which was a goddamn bold move of statesmanship, and thereby set multiple precedents that are still extremely useful to us. He successfully brokered a peace with Mist about thirty minutes after we were killing each other, gave us the chance to implement the plan that prevented WW3, and during all of this was also the head of a very large spy ring that successfully found Akatsuki, even after it took some serious mauling.
He was pretty damn good, in short.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, so counterpoint. Can you imagine any reason why we should adopt Tenten now instead of consulting Naruto first? Adding an additional Chuunin level Ninja to our clan will not somehow entice Naruto to join if he was not already inclined to do so. The only thing that doing it now can reasonably do is cause strife between Naruto and us. This is so clearly a terrible idea that I cannot understand why so many people are in support of it. Adopting new ninja into the clan is a reasonable thing for us to do in the longer term, but we need to deal with the current political crisis first to ensure we don't alienate any potential allies and, more importantly, we need to make sure that the guy who will be our clan head isn't against the concept.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] Action Plan: Party Growth
I like the changes this plan makes, and I'll see about integrating some of its things into my own plan in the meantime.
I like the changes this plan makes, and I'll see about integrating some of its things into my own plan in the meantime.
Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Would you care to elaborate?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I think we can get Tenten in on account of her relationship with Keiko, and would be very very surprised if Naruto were to object to that. It's not really about convincing Naruto from my perspective, it's literally about getting Tenten into the clan.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- She/Her
No, the issue has nothing to do with convincing Naruto that it should be done, the issue is all about making sure that our clan head doesn't have a problem with it and thus ensuring that Naruto doesn't get pissed at some perceived power play by us. Once again, why should we ever do it now versus after consulting with Naruto? Is there literally any good reason to do it in this order other than just knowing we'll get our way like this?
- Location
- Yes.
Getting the Jinchuriki to be indebted to the villages.
Honorable mention to Hiashi, who helped.
That's what Ren did. Good for her.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail
Can one of you read the action plans being voted in? Also have mercy on us for having to plan with only 24 hours on the clock.
Can one of you read the action plans being voted in? Also have mercy on us for having to plan with only 24 hours on the clock.
- Location
- Yes.
...yeah, that's not a bad point. I'm debating between the team go (Hazou, Noburi, Keiko) or just Hazou.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I judge it to be such an utter non-issue from Naruto's perspective (once he's aware of Keiko and Tenten's relationship) that the marginal gain of getting it done quickly - in the time between now and when we get to see him - outweighs the concern that Naruto might think it was a power play. How would it even be a power play? It's not like we need to shore up Keiko's opinion of us versus him.
- Location
- Australia
[X] Action Plan: Party Growth
Naruto: As Head of the Uzumaki clan I decide what does or does not disqualify clan members from being Uzumaki. I have decided that gaining the allegiance of another clan does not disqualify me from the Uzumaki clan.
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
While thinking about the clan head issue I tackled the whole thing from a different angle.
What actually is clan Goketsu? Essentially it is Team Uplift, a bunch of missing nin forged during their struggle for survival out of a mix of happenstance, friendship and Mari's manipulation, that accepted Jiraiya's overlordship in exchange for protection and the ability to rejoin civilization in the most advantageous way possible. There has literally been no member of Goketsu other than our two year old team and Lord Jiraiya.
So when Jiraiya decided to have Naruto inherit the clan head title it literally means that he is gifting us to his godson and protege. A person we never met.
Now arguments can be made that he deserves to do so. He has saved our lives multiple times. Only through his machinations, political capital and hard earned privilege are we now in the position we are in. The first monetary investment into the clan compound was also his, and part of the reason the financial burden went over to Keiko (for now) is due to mistakes on our part.
Beyond that Jiraiya has been nothing but a good and fair Lord. So much so that we saw him as a beloved father figure. He supported and encouraged us. He sacrificed for us. He trusted us. He loved us. And we did everything that was in our ability to reciprocate (except maybe Kagome).
But none of that changes the fact that Jiraiya's last wish is to give his ownership (to whatever legal extent*) of this bunch of humans he saved and adopted to someone they don't know personally.
And we who control Hazou now have the choice to either sign off on it or not. Or, to bring up a real life equivalent, we are choosing if all of us should marry a highly reputable and trustworthy stranger in a country where husbands have power over their wives. Even if we know for a fact that the chosen husband is the most free-minded and egalitarian person ever and that he completely disagrees with the powers the laws of the land give him, it is still a decision not taken lightly.
Of course the opposite is also true. If we adopt Naruto but remain clan head then we have this power over him. And he knows us just as little as we know him. All he knows is that his crazy but great uncle Jiraiya hid away a bunch of missing nin in exchange for providing Leaf a great military advantage that, by the way, led to Naruto being used as bait and snapped away by an enemy who proceeded to torture him for months. And then he wakes up and his Jiraiya is dead, but wants him to join this clan he formed out of said missing nin.
If I were Naruto I would not let myself be adopted before seriously getting to know them, no matter how much I trust Jiraiya.
In conclusion: Inviting Naruto into the Goketsu to be a member of the family in anything but name is the fairest thing to do for everyone involved. There is no reason to delay with the actual adoption and leadership questions until such a time where everyone is comfortable with it. Everything beyond that, if rushed, involves heavy and partially unknown legal implications that should only be considered if politics (meaning survival) demand it.
*: By the way, we really should find out what legal power a clan head actually has. It could be that he merely represents the clan to the rest of Leaf, all else being internal clan matters that no one meddles in. It could be that he is officially undeposable, no matter what internal clan elders or factions say. It could be that he has the legal right to exile or execute any of his subjects, with all of Leaf supporting and aiding him in that power.
What actually is clan Goketsu? Essentially it is Team Uplift, a bunch of missing nin forged during their struggle for survival out of a mix of happenstance, friendship and Mari's manipulation, that accepted Jiraiya's overlordship in exchange for protection and the ability to rejoin civilization in the most advantageous way possible. There has literally been no member of Goketsu other than our two year old team and Lord Jiraiya.
So when Jiraiya decided to have Naruto inherit the clan head title it literally means that he is gifting us to his godson and protege. A person we never met.
Now arguments can be made that he deserves to do so. He has saved our lives multiple times. Only through his machinations, political capital and hard earned privilege are we now in the position we are in. The first monetary investment into the clan compound was also his, and part of the reason the financial burden went over to Keiko (for now) is due to mistakes on our part.
Beyond that Jiraiya has been nothing but a good and fair Lord. So much so that we saw him as a beloved father figure. He supported and encouraged us. He sacrificed for us. He trusted us. He loved us. And we did everything that was in our ability to reciprocate (except maybe Kagome).
But none of that changes the fact that Jiraiya's last wish is to give his ownership (to whatever legal extent*) of this bunch of humans he saved and adopted to someone they don't know personally.
And we who control Hazou now have the choice to either sign off on it or not. Or, to bring up a real life equivalent, we are choosing if all of us should marry a highly reputable and trustworthy stranger in a country where husbands have power over their wives. Even if we know for a fact that the chosen husband is the most free-minded and egalitarian person ever and that he completely disagrees with the powers the laws of the land give him, it is still a decision not taken lightly.
Of course the opposite is also true. If we adopt Naruto but remain clan head then we have this power over him. And he knows us just as little as we know him. All he knows is that his crazy but great uncle Jiraiya hid away a bunch of missing nin in exchange for providing Leaf a great military advantage that, by the way, led to Naruto being used as bait and snapped away by an enemy who proceeded to torture him for months. And then he wakes up and his Jiraiya is dead, but wants him to join this clan he formed out of said missing nin.
If I were Naruto I would not let myself be adopted before seriously getting to know them, no matter how much I trust Jiraiya.
In conclusion: Inviting Naruto into the Goketsu to be a member of the family in anything but name is the fairest thing to do for everyone involved. There is no reason to delay with the actual adoption and leadership questions until such a time where everyone is comfortable with it. Everything beyond that, if rushed, involves heavy and partially unknown legal implications that should only be considered if politics (meaning survival) demand it.
*: By the way, we really should find out what legal power a clan head actually has. It could be that he merely represents the clan to the rest of Leaf, all else being internal clan matters that no one meddles in. It could be that he is officially undeposable, no matter what internal clan elders or factions say. It could be that he has the legal right to exile or execute any of his subjects, with all of Leaf supporting and aiding him in that power.
@Inferno Vulpix I think those two parts would be great to steal from faflec's plan. His Lee part phrasing is great and we really shouldn't ignore Mari. Everything else that's changed I have my concerns about.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Made some changes derived from faflec's plan and Cariyaga's suggestion on discord (telling Naruto about the rest of the clan so he knows about Kagome)
And if she's dead... I imagine Hazou has the common sense to not drag a corpse around like it's alive because the plan didn't contain that eventuality.
Last we checked Akane was just perturbed that she was being excluded, so as long as she's alive I imagine she wouldn't hate our guts if she rejects the adoption offer. Even if she's not a Goketsu, she's still part of our team.
And if she's dead... I imagine Hazou has the common sense to not drag a corpse around like it's alive because the plan didn't contain that eventuality.
Good point, I'll get on that (I have enough wordcount left, probably)
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- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Do you not see how adding people to the clan who are personally loyal to us is a power play? There's just absolutely no reason to rush it. It can be done after consulting with him just as easily as it can be done now - the difference between the two is just a few hours, not weeks or w/e. Adopting anybody into the clan is a big decision because it sends a message to every other clan - the Goketsu are expanding. It's not a simple decision and there's absolutely no reason why we should ever adopt anyone without first consulting with the person who will be in charge of the Goketsu - and who has to deal with any possible responses to it.
- Location
- Europe
Grabing the hat under shady circumstances isn't a good argument for a good diplomat, besides acknowledging that he shouldn't have it in the first place, he only held it thanks to his personal power and Shikaku.
Keiko accepted that burden, he just showed up and accepted Shikaku's deal, because he needed him. We can thank Keiko for that, not Jiraiya.
The Third Hokage backed him against all odds. But sure, you're not wrong.
While he complained about internal Mist politics (while thinking he (and Shikaku) could pull off Pax Konoha),he needed AMI's help and support. Oh and he bet on the Ninja olympics.
Sure, after Hazou, Noburi,Mist Oyabun, Oro and others brought him intel.
No. Not really.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The entire clan is personally loyal to us over him at this point. It would be utter madness for him to believe otherwise, and would absolutely not be seen as a power play by anyone with a shred of sense or political acumen, and we have to assume he has both if we're making him Clan Head, or we're screwed anyway.
...I will concede that he might have a better idea of how to handle the optics of these adoptions, though. Perhaps you might make that argument to the plan-makers?
The "ask Kabuto about Norburi's bloodline" thing worries me a bit.
While we may or may not adopt him, right now this seems like it might lead to a horrible breach of Clan Secret Security (CSEC?).
Alternatively we could ask Tsunade (is a summoner and med-nin and I trust her more) or ask Noburi if he knows anything (did his clan ever contain a summoner?).
I also worry about the Chouza conversation.
Having pretty much a stranger come up to you and express condolences is fine, but having said condolences be a preamble to asking you to recount the way your comrades died might go over very badly.
If we are set on asking him, maybe get a sanity check on it from someone (maybe Chouji) first.
The monument thing may be a chance. We could engrave the names of all fallen instead of just Leaf ninja.
That would probably earn us some bad rep with some.
It would also show where we stand. Not sure if thats a good thing, but it's a thing.
While we may or may not adopt him, right now this seems like it might lead to a horrible breach of Clan Secret Security (CSEC?).
Alternatively we could ask Tsunade (is a summoner and med-nin and I trust her more) or ask Noburi if he knows anything (did his clan ever contain a summoner?).
I also worry about the Chouza conversation.
Having pretty much a stranger come up to you and express condolences is fine, but having said condolences be a preamble to asking you to recount the way your comrades died might go over very badly.
If we are set on asking him, maybe get a sanity check on it from someone (maybe Chouji) first.
The monument thing may be a chance. We could engrave the names of all fallen instead of just Leaf ninja.
That would probably earn us some bad rep with some.
It would also show where we stand. Not sure if thats a good thing, but it's a thing.