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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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1. Get Ulthuan's coop
2. Figure out how to build a nexus
3. Build multiple nexii leading to Ulthuan (brettonnia)
4. Marienburg stops being the single point of failure for Ulthuan
5. Prepare parts for a replacement nexus, just in case
6. Invade Marienburg

Ulthuan might just send a token force to protect their citizens.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
There's hundreds of miles from the closest point in the Empire's chain of rivers (somewhere near Bechafen) till Erengrad
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What? No have you looked at the map? There is a river that goes through the Shiroki Forest that reaches to Kislev City and from there to north. Erengard also have a river that goes near the same place.


(One of the Puple is what I propose.)

Ergosum said:
If we use the Blood boon for a canal, could we use the Vlag boon to have them help? They are even better stoneworkers than before they vanished, which is saying something considering it was one (if the smallest) of the Old Holds
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Yes we can. Don't mind othere patronizing them for being poor they have dwarf power and expertise needed and it is not like you need gold when you have those on hand. Kislev and Vlag working together can handle this. I don't for a moment believe this is too rich for them they are just saying that to make it look poor option so their pet option wins.
 
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The thing is access to sea of claws would allow Empire to negotiate in a more even level with Marienburg. They raise tolls too high? Fleet / trade goes north to Erengar in order to reach open sea. Hell just easy access to Kislev markets will do good things to both economies.

It is not slam dunk but it ensures there is a ceiling that Marienburg tolls and if they refuse the passage outright Empire fleets are not stranded on the wrong side even if the road becomes very long. That is invaluable strategic card for Empire strategists and would make 1st fleet useful resource to Empire rather than money sink.

There is also the fact that an army from Altdorf can take river boats to Kislve in the event of the Everchosen. That is very big speed difference to marching.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I am not too jazzed about asking for another canal because well....

16th of October 2019. That is the RL date that saw the first glimmer of the canal which is only now completing. I do not feel like waiting four more years for the next one and given that actions in quests tend to last longer as the quests mature it is likely to take even longer than that. I'd rather take the books and actually see the results sooner.
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Books are not much of a result and are not good for much of anything as far as I am concerned. We started entire library to safeguard books but pay off is not set to happen for generations in game and probably never IRL. More to point library can already make book sharing agreements without boon. Boon just means we don't have to give anything back which from what I am seeing is not something people want.

People want to share our books back in that case using the boon is wrong approach, take Library action for a book sharing agreement and it will happen, take the boon and we will copy the books and won't give Kislev anything back.

Plus this is smaller extention to canals so it should be much faster.
 
K von Carstein said:
The Elf Quarter is no more a Asur colony than the Réunion is a French one, it's either sovereign Ulthuani territory or an extra-territorial enclave. I still don't see the colonial connotation in a state propping up another that is dependent on it for maintaining its independence.
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I believe this is semantics, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Marienburg was built upon an abandoned Elven colony and they allowed the Asur to reclaim Elf Quarter based on that historical context.
Ulthuan backing their client-state against the Empire can be construed as a move to secure their regained foothold on the Old World, which is colonialism 101 - backing a local rival faction as a cover for your land gains.

Tasoli said:
There is also the fact that an army from Altdorf can take river boats to Kislve inthe event of the Everchosen. That is very big speed difference to marching.
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They can already reach Kislev by river through the River Talabec, that's how Egrimm and the Journeymen Trio returned to Altdorf after the Expedition. The canal would just let them sail a bit further north to Praag in case of Everchosen, so it's not that big of a difference:
Boney said:
"We'll be travelling with the steam-wagons until Kislev City, and then back to Altdorf by river," Barbitus says distractedly as he writes,
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K von Carstein said:
The Elf Quarter is no more a Asur colony than the Réunion is a French one, it's either sovereign Ulthuani territory or an extra-territorial enclave. I still don't see the colonial connotation in a state propping up another that is dependent on it for maintaining its independence.
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I could argue that Réunion is a colony, it gives France a potent location for leveraging the threat of military force on Africa if they try to resist neocolonialism. But the comparison is just bad. Elftown is much more comparable to the foreign concessions in China. They even made sure that any elf that commits any crime in all of the Westerlands will be tried until an Ulthuani judge. Extraterritoriality is a huge red flag. It is quite obvious that the Treaty of Amity and Commerce was inspired by the Unequal Treaties. The Empire and Marienburg aren't in anywhere near as much of an unequal relationship as Europe and Qing China was, but the inspiration is still there.

Generally speaking, demanding to receive enclaves as sovereign territory is bad and it is also a part of colonialism.

Mellowfellow said:
I believe this is semantics, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Marienburg was built upon an abandoned Elven colony and they allowed the Asur to reclaim Elf Quarter based on that historical context.
Ulthuan backing their client-state against the Empire can be construed as a move to secure their regained foothold on the Old World, which is colonialism 101 - backing a local rival faction as a cover for your land gains.
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I'd like to point out that Ulthuan made sure that any elf in the Westerlands (or Wastelands) received extraterritoriality. Any crime involving elves in the Wastelands could only be charged in elven courts (specifically Asur courts).

Just a reminder of the timeframe though, Elftown was ceded to Ulthuan in 2130 IC. During the Era of Three Emperors and when Marienburg was still ruled over a by Baron. That Baron might even have been claiming to be Emperor.

Some Asur also see it as a colony, but obviously it isn't anywhere near as oppressive as the Unequal Treaties.
Boney said:
Part of Marienburg is 'the Continental Exarchate of the High Kingdom of Ulthuan', which is legally owned by Ulthuan. It's a source of a lot of wealth and prestige, and gives warm fuzzies to the sort of Elf that yearns for the days when Ulthuan had an Empire.
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Wiggy said:
This isn't the asur agreeing not to intervene if the Empire tries to reconquer Marienburg. It's them leaning on Marienburg to stop hitting people with massive tariffs every time they pass by and stop fucking around about the canal.
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It's not even to stop fucking around about the canal, it's Ulthuan clarifying what its position is regarding fucking around about the canal.

While I don't think they would, Ulthuan could very well say "We would like to clarify that our position is that Marienburg has our unconditional backing" and fulfill the terms of the deal.
 
Tasoli said:
Yes we can. Don't mind othere patronizing them for being poor they have dwarf power and expertise needed and it is not like you need gold when you have those on hand. Kislev and Vlag working together can handle this. I don't for a moment believe this is too rich for them they are just saying that to make it look poor option so their pet option wins.
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I haven't strongly advocated for any boon option, if that's supposed to be referring to me.

As to what I said about wealth, the concern I brought up wasn't about needing gold to complete the canal, it's about diverting the resources away from rebuilding their own defenses—a transcendental boon means that they'll do what we ask without regard to their own needs, even if it'll break the Karak. It's the same reason we waited so long to use Belegar's boon.
 
Tasoli said:
Books are not much of a result and are not good for much of anything as far as I am concerned. We started entire library to safeguard books but pay off is not set to happen for generations in game and probably never IRL. More to point library can already make book sharing agreements without boon. Boon just means we don't have to give anything back which from what I am seeing is not something people want.

People want to share our books back in that case using the boon is wrong approach, take Library action for a book sharing agreement and it will happen, take the boon and we will copy the books and won't give Kislev anything back.

Plus this is smaller extention to canals so it should be much faster.
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I believe the current motivation is to establish a reciprocal Library Partnership with Kislev like we made with the Mootland Genealogical Library, so that both parties have access to each other's full catalogue into the future. We already had an immediate example of BOOK boons paying off with the Elementalist lore opening up a whole new perspective, maybe that didn't trigger your interest but there was plenty others that experienced catharsis from that. The boon would save us the most precious resource (AP) so we don't have to make book sharing agreements separately.

picklepikkl said:
[ ] [BLOOD] Personal: Partnership between Kron-Azril-Ungol and Kislev's libraries

Partnership is a deeper tie than just copying agreements, it seems:
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A library partnership like pickle suggests would let Kislev safeguard their current lore AND opens up a whole new world of southern literature they didn't have access to before.
 
Tasoli said:
Books are not much of a result and are not good for much of anything as far as I am concerned. We started entire library to safeguard books but pay off is not set to happen for generations in game and probably never IRL. More to point library can already make book sharing agreements without boon. Boon just means we don't have to give anything back which from what I am seeing is not something people want.

People want to share our books back in that case using the boon is wrong approach, take Library action for a book sharing agreement and it will happen, take the boon and we will copy the books and won't give Kislev anything back.

Plus this is smaller extention to canals so it should be much faster.
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They are very much a result, especially magic books, we use them to do weird magic. Case in point I'm sure Kislev has Sevir books that we could use on the AV book next turn. A +5 when the size of the die is 100 is quite a lot.
 
Resonant said:
I believe the current motivation is to establish a reciprocal Library Partnership with Kislev like we made with the Mootland Genealogical Library, so that both parties have access to each other's full catalogue into the future. We already had an immediate example of BOOK boons paying off with the Elementalist lore opening up a whole new perspective, maybe that didn't trigger your interest but there was plenty others that experienced catharsis from that. The boon would save us the most precious resource (AP) so we don't have to make book sharing agreements separately.
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I really don't think Partnership automatically means having full access to each others' catalogs. Because if it did, it'd mean the Mootland Genealogical Library would have access to all our books on magic (dark magics included).

Boney's said before that the amount of books we get access to from any given library depends on how well negotiations go (which themselves depend on how impressive our library is comparatively, whether we have things that are useful to them, whether they're just running out of space and want to make some room for more stuff, etc), and that means that in a regular negotiation, neither party will have full access to the full libraries.

The Mootland Genealogical Library is, however, relatively small and K8P already has a sizable Halfling population, so it's not a surprise that they acceded to let us access what is presumably most of their catalog - that's kinda why they were the first ones we approached. We also didn't engage in a reasonable negotiation with Nuln - we had Boris do a sprinting jump-punch to the faces of each of the libraries, so we have full access to everything they have and they have no access to anything that isn't one of their own copies.

Similarly, here, we are the ones dictating the terms. We can definitely make it a Partnership, but even in the most favorable terms to Kislev I don't think they'll have access to everything KAU has to offer - Mathilde is obligated to not spread Collegiate secrets.
 
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Mellowfellow said:
Question @picklepikkl does Partnership cover future knowledge/books that Kislev or KAU acquires themselves? I.e. If KAU manages to copy a library that Kislev does not have access to after the deal is made, then Kislev will have access through our partnership?
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picklepikkl said:
This is a question for the QM, not for me. But sure, since right now the discussion has rabbit-holed into Marienburg: Boney, when you get the chance, my understanding of the status of "Partner library", which we currently only have with the Halflings, is that it represents an indefinitely ongoing bilateral agreement where scribes from one institution can freely show up to the other for copying materials and the institutions might send original copies to one another for archival purposes. Is this approximately accurate?
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Yes, a partner library is one that has entered willingly and openly into a bilateral arrangement with the KAU. Common-sense restrictions will apply, like non-magical institutions won't have access to spellbooks.

mathymancer said:
But while a BOOK BOON barely makes me throw up in my mouth at all, I would still prefer something that doesn't benefit Mathilde directly. I don't know what an Empire boon would look like - the option of 'fuck Marienburg' is kind of appealing, but I don't really understand the political landscape well enough to understand the ramifications of that kind of ask. The option mentions "renegotiation of disputed borders" - is that a thing we care about? Are there border tensions between Kislev and Ostland/Ostermark that some sort of formal treaty will solve, improving relations between Kislev and the Empire while getting Mathilde some additional diplomacy cred?
Maybe just tell the Emperor we did some Waystone related thing for Boris (full details are classified, sorry) and he owes us a solid, let him figure that one out.
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When the Gospodars arrived and were colonizing Kislev, they also bit off a chunk of Ostland which was bitten back a couple of centuries later. The current borders have been more or less stable for a long time, but both sides still have claims to parts of each other - the part of Ostland called 'the Northern March' and the part of Kislev called 'the Kislev Verge'. The Ostermark border is a bit more stable because the Upper Talabec makes for a very firm natural border, but parts of Kislev would like to push the border south to the Brunwasser to snip off the Veldt, while parts of Ostermark would like to push it north to Vitevo to claim part of the fertile Southern Oblast and the rich mines in the mountains near Red Eye Mountain (formerly Karak Ungor).
 
Currently we have wind based waystones and land bound magic tributaries. I expect that with the cooperation with the elementalist we could make an intermediate level of elemental waystones, but I am not sure that is worthwhile. It would allow us to increase coverage if we are stuck with only the river method though.
 
Do we know whether/how badly taking the fuck Marienburg option would harm the canal project's profits? Is it something that would actually help them by creating a larger trade route? Or is it just making a bypass that they spent massive amounts of money on redundant right after they finish building it?
 
fictionfan said:
Currently we have wind based waystones and land bound magic tributaries. I expect that with the cooperation with the elementalist we could make an intermediate level of elemental waystones, but I am not sure that is worthwhile. It would allow us to increase coverage if we are stuck with only the river method though.
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Would an elementalist waystone even work? They rely on "earthbound magic" which iirc turns into Winds when it's... Around Winds.
 
adaer said:
Do we know whether/how badly taking the fuck Marienburg option would harm the canal project's profits? Is it something that would actually help them by creating a larger trade route? Or is it just making a bypass that they spent massive amounts of money on redundant right after they finish building it?
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It be a way faster connecting between barak varr and the empire then going around bretonnia so it's still viable
 
Regarding the idea of a canal boon, I would like to bring to everyone's attention that the dawi of vlag have probably never even seen a canal before and would have little idea of what they are doing.

For Book Boon, a partnership with Kislevian libraries could prove highly useful to the the Tzar should they get access to all those imperial gunnery books we have. Get that TWW wall of guns style of Kislev warfare going.
 
Boney said:
When the Gospodars arrived and were colonizing Kislev, they also bit off a chunk of Ostland which was bitten back a couple of centuries later. The current borders have been more or less stable for a long time, but both sides still have claims to parts of each other - the part of Ostland called 'the Northern March' and the part of Kislev called 'the Kislev Verge'. The Ostermark border is a bit more stable because the Upper Talabec makes for a very firm natural border, but parts of Kislev would like to push the border south to the Brunwasser to snip off the Veldt, while parts of Ostermark would like to push it north to Vitevo to claim part of the fertile Southern Oblast and the rich mines in the mountains near Red Eye Mountain (formerly Karak Ungor).
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Well, that's one option then.

[ ] [BLOOD] Empire (Peace in Our Time): Kislev will relinquish all claim to the Northern March and to the lands beyond the Upper Talabec, formally recognizing the current border with the Empire as legitimate.

This is something that will definitely cost Boris (because obviously he'll lose some legitimacy) so it will convince him that this is a serious ask and we've actually called our favour and won't hold it over his head forever, but it's also pretty unimportant and we don't care about this at all, so I don't feel like we'll really benefit from this and therefore don't feel bad about asking for this. It's perfect!
 
A list of some of the ideas I've seen for the Blood Price:
  • Library Partnership/Book Copying
  • Wealth
  • Land/Title
  • The Fire Spire
  • EIC Repeater Factory
  • EIC presence in Kislev
  • Military assistance against Marienburg or the Forest of Shadows
  • Political assistance against Marienburg or Nordland
  • Canal linking Erengrad to the main river network
  • Economic support for Vlag
  • Formal economic and political agreements with the Empire
  • Support for magic users migrating to the Empire
  • Ceding disputed territory to Ostermark
  • Endorsement of the Cult of Ranald
  • Access to Waystone Nexuses
  • Nothing at all
  • A personal war-mammoth
  • Intelligence sharing regarding chaos
Have I missed anything?
 
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[ ] Ulthuan: Fuck Marienberg
[ ] Kislev: Naval defence treaty with the Empire

would be one heck of a gift to the admiralty all at once, basically out of nowhere.

Eike: "Is this because you found out I like boats?"
 
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