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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
Kragg didn't just use a regular Anvil Rune, he got so caught up he used an Ancestor Rune, a greatly treasured and powerful artifact of the Golden Age to empower the Undumgi. I can understand Belegar wanting to cover that up to prevent outrage from the wider Dwarf community.

This has been pointed out a long time ago, but it's also the reason why Mathilde noted the Undumgi had such an affinity for Dwarfs and picked up Khazalid nearly as fast as she did. Their souls were literally transmuted with the spirit of Grungni.
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Might be interesting to see if over time they produce any magic users at all.
 
And it is a tie. Step right up folks step right up... do you want to embrace Ranald or knowledge, god's chosen or wizard of the colleges, which part of Mathilde's nature do you like most?
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 30, 2021 at 7:36 AM, finished with 2264 posts and 518 votes.
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Codex said:
Oh wow. I was going through the Anvil Runes for the Dwarfs, and I noticed something. Dwarfs have three standard Anvil Runes in 8th Edition's base army book, and a further three Ancestor Runes in the Storm of Magic Supplement, which are buffed up and more powerful, and I've come across something very interesting that I found relevant.

The standard Anvil Runes are:

Rune of Hearth and Home: Targets every single Dwarf in 24" (and only Dwarfs). Grants Immune to Psychology for a turn.
Rune of Oath and Steel: Targets a single Dwarf unit, giving +1 to their armor saves for a turn.
Rune of Wrath and Ruin: Cracks the ground open to vent magma at enemies, dealing 2d6 Strength 4 hits to a unit distributed as shooting.

Fairly tame stuff, but I think you can cast all these runes as bound spells once per turn each, so it makes sense that it's limited. Now, here's the big stuff. The Ancestor Runes:

Ancestor Rune of Grungni: Targets a number of friendly units equal to the number of successful strikings (notice that this isn't restricted to Dwarfs like the regular Anvil Runes). All allies affected by this have the Fight in Extra Ranks special rule and reroll all failed to hit rolls for both shooting and close combat for a turn.
Ancestor Rune of Grimnir: Same as Rune of Wrath and Ruin except it has a wider area of effect.
Ancestor Rune of Valaya: Targets a number of friendly units equal to the number of successful strikings, not Dwarf restricted. Heals targeted units in the exact same way as Regrowth and grants all affected units Unbreakable for a full turn.

Why is all this relevant? Well, we've seen Anvil Runes in the quest before, but here's why I think it's important:

What Kragg did here was not Oath and Steel or Hearth and Home. Aside from the fact that those Anvil Runes only affect Dwarven units, the effect presented here does not fit what they do. He used the Ancestor Rune of Grungni on them, which grants fight in extra rank and reroll hits, represented as "Dwarfish enmity of greenskins" strengthening their arms and flooding through their minds. That might also explain this:

Kragg didn't just use a regular Anvil Rune, he got so caught up he used an Ancestor Rune, a greatly treasured and powerful artifact of the Golden Age to empower the Undumgi. I can understand Belegar wanting to cover that up to prevent outrage from the wider Dwarf community.

This has been pointed out a long time ago, but it's also the reason why Mathilde noted the Undumgi had such an affinity for Dwarfs and picked up Khazalid nearly as fast as she did. Their souls were literally transmuted with the spirit of Grungni.
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This is actually something that's come up before, albeit not in any of the updates; according to Boney Kragg got a bit 'carried away' with his ancestor runes, and as you guessed used the one you described (i.e. the rune that brings its recipients closer to the dwarven ancestors) on a bunch of Umgi. He's apparently been keeping a close eye on them ever since, though i don't think anyone outside of him actually knows what he did (so Belegar doesn't know about it, for example).
 
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IronFist said:
Might be interesting to see if over time they produce any magic users at all.
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I don't think so? Runes aren't exactly magic as humans use it. Maybe they'll develop a unique form of Divine manifestation that makes them more dwarflike in battle, but I don't think it'll give them magic exactly. Rune Magic is stripped of its identity, so it doesn't really involve any Winds as we know them.

If I were to represent them in the Tabletop or something like that, I would give them Relentless and Shieldwall, both of which are Dwarf special rules that would fit them (Relentless lets you march within 8" of an enemy without needing to do a Leadership test, and Shieldwall gives a +1 bonus to parry saves against Charges). Maybe even give them extra Leadership/Toughness to represent Dwarfiness.
 
DragonParadox said:
And it is a tie. Step right up folks step right up... do you want to embrace Ranald or knowledge, god's chosen or wizard of the colleges, which part of Mathilde's nature do you like most?
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 30, 2021 at 7:36 AM, finished with 2264 posts and 518 votes.
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And if you're voting to keep it a tie artificially... don't. Seriously, don't.
 
Codex said:
I don't think so? Runes aren't exactly magic as humans use it. Maybe they'll develop a unique form of Divine manifestation that makes them more dwarflike in battle, but I don't think it'll give them magic exactly. Rune Magic is stripped of its identity, so it doesn't really involve any Winds as we know them.

If I were to represent them in the Tabletop or something like that, I would give them Relentless and Shieldwall, both of which are Dwarf special rules that would fit them (Relentless lets you march within 8" of an enemy without needing to do a Leadership test, and Shieldwall gives a +1 bonus to parry saves against Charges). Maybe even give them extra Leadership/Toughness to represent Dwarfiness.
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I think the idea was to see if the dwarfishness stamped out their inherent human gift for magic or not.
 
NSMS said:
This is actually something that's come up before, albeit not in any of the updates; according to Boney Kragg got a bit 'carried away' with his ancestor runes, and as you guessed used the one you described (i.e. the rune that brings its recipients closer to the dwarven ancestors) on a bunch of Umgi. He's apparently been keeping a close eye on them ever since, though i don't think anyone outside of him actually knows what he did (so Belegar doesn't know about it, for example).
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I remember that it came up before because I was the one who brought it up years ago as a theory. I just didn't know at the time that it was an Ancestor Rune he used, I thought it was a regular Anvil Rune. I didn't know enough about Warhammer back then.

I'm very sure that Belegar knows what happened. I don't think he could possibly miss the sour look Kragg gave him when Mathilde noticed it. He has to be actively involved in hiding it.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think the idea was to see if the dwarfishness stamped out their inherent human gift for magic or not.
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Dwarfs can cast magic, they just don't do it because it turns them to stone. I think Mathilde would have noticed if the Undumgi became averse to magic affter the empowerment, so I assume the effects are more subtle and it didn't transfer the Dwarf "nature of stone" that makes them incapable of casting magic without getting stoned.
 
Codex said:
Dwarfs can cast magic, they just don't do it because it turns them to stone. I think Mathilde would have noticed if the Undumgi became averse to magic affter the empowerment, so I assume the effects are more subtle and it didn't transfer the Dwarf "nature of stone" that makes them incapable of casting magic without getting stoned.
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While dwarfs can cast magic it is obviously not natural to them, they do not bumble into the winds the way an untrained human would, for one thing there is no such thing as a dwarf with witch sight and I do not think the rune of Valaya could have extirpated that.
 
Codex said:
Dwarfs can cast magic, they just don't do it because it turns them to stone. I think Mathilde would have noticed if the Undumgi became averse to magic affter the empowerment, so I assume the effects are more subtle and it didn't transfer the Dwarf "nature of stone" that makes them incapable of casting magic without getting stoned.
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Both the divine manifestation option and the decreased frequency of magic users would be interesting to study though.
 
Codex said:
I remember that it came up before because I was the one who brought it up years ago as a theory. I just didn't know at the time that it was an Ancestor Rune he used, I thought it was a regular Anvil Rune. I didn't know enough about Warhammer back then.

I'm very sure that Belegar knows what happened. I don't think he could possibly miss the sour look Kragg gave him when Mathilde noticed it. He has to be actively involved in hiding it.
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The problem there is that it requires Belegar to know enough about anvil runes to both recognise the effect and know how it works, and while the first is plausible I'm very doubtful about the second. Dwarves take secrets seriously, Runsmiths take them even more seriously, and the mechanism through which an ancestor rune actually works strikes me as something they'd keep tightly under lock and key. Belegar may well have noticed Kragg's glare (though equally, something as simple as just not having been looking at him could have prevented that), but interpreting it correctly is another matter.
 
Come on Truth voters, I know you're out there! As Mathilde has said, don't you ever want to branch out into some dubious megaweapon project? I know you do, because Waystones! Believe in the Ranald that believes in Mathilde!
 
DragonParadox said:
While dwarfs can cast magic it is obviously not natural to them, they do not bumble into the winds the way an untrained human would, for one thing there is no such thing as a dwarf with witch sight and I do not think the rune of Valaya could have extirpated that.
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Ok? It's not like the Ancestor Rune of Grungni turned them into Dwarfs. It just transmuted their souls somewhat. The exact extent is unknown, but I don't see why that would strip any magical ability.

Not like it matters, the chances of them developing magical abilities was absurdly low either way.
NSMS said:
The problem there is that it requires Belegar to know enough about anvil runes to both recognise the effect and know how it works, and while the first is plausible I'm very doubtful about the second. Dwarves take secrets seriously, Runsmiths take them even more seriously, and the mechanism through which an ancestor rune actually works strikes me as something they'd keep tightly under lock and key. Belegar may well have noticed Kragg's glare (though equally, something as simple as just not having been looking at him could have prevented that), but interpreting it correctly is another matter.
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Or, you know, they can talk. He doesn't need to be a detective, he can notice that the Undumgi did incredibly well in the battle, notice the odd look he gave him, and ask questions. Runelords take secrets seriously, but it's not like he's telling Belegar the exact secrets of how the Runes work. Belegar's a king who has the Undumgi as vassals, it would be immensely irresponsible of Kragg to not consult him on the fact that he enhanced them.

I don't understand why you think Kragg would be averse to the concept of communicating on an important topic that would be relevant to Belegar's leadership.
 
Codex said:
Ok? It's not like the Ancestor Rune of Grungni turned them into Dwarfs. It just transmuted their souls somewhat. The exact extent is unknown, but I don't see why that would strip any magical ability.
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There are tens of thousands of them as far as I recall, the chance of producing a magister grade talent is one in twenty thousand with something like a perpetual being more likely.
 
DragonParadox said:
There are tens of thousands of them as far as I recall, the chance of producing a magister grade talent is one in twenty thousand with something like a perpetual being more likely.
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6000 of them. The chances of getting a Magister grade is around 1/30k from the Boney update. Below Magister level it's a 1/3k chance. Statistically that's two of them with minor talents, but statistics aren't always consistent on a smaller scale.
 
Codex said:
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Or, you know, they can talk. He doesn't need to be a detective, he can notice that the Undumgi did incredibly well in the battle, notice the odd look he gave him, and ask questions. Runelords take secrets seriously, but it's not like he's telling Belegar the exact secrets of how the Runes work. Belegar's a king who has the Undumgi as vassals, it would be immensely irresponsible of Kragg to not consult him on the fact that he enhanced them.

I don't understand why you think Kragg would be averse to the concept of communicating on an important topic that would be relevant to Belegar's leadership.
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Because dwarves can and do keep secrets when it'd make much more sense not to, and in this case specifically 'I may have accidentally created a subspecies of humans with part-dwarf souls' isn't the kind of revelation you drop without being very certain of what happened.
 
Codex said:
6000 of them. The chances of getting a Magister grade is around 1/30k from the Boney update. Below Magister level it's a 1/3k chance. Statistically that's two of them with minor talents, but statistics aren't always consistent on a smaller scale.
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Like, just think about it. Statistically there would be around 2 people or so in a group of 6000 who manifest magical abilities of any degree, according to statistics. If you check every single Undumgi to determine whether any of them have magical ability, and you come up blank, does that prove anything? No.

From a research standpoint, the pool is far too small to determine any patterns. If you try to present some sort of paper saying "these guys were affected by Dwarf magic and none of them came up positive for magical abilities after I checked them" a swift rebuttal can come up through academia that says "the chances are 1/3k and you have a sample size of 6000, that proves nothing". No real way to detect changes unless we could have scrutinised their souls before and after the Rune affected them and used a control group or something. Don't think Kragg is willing to cooperate on that.
 
The worst thing about being on the "losing" side of a sudden surge is that my mind keeps finding various bad or wrong reasons why people are voting, except that the vast majority of said reasons don't actually exist and the few that do are in fact perfectly valid reasons to vote that I just happen to disagree with.

Leaving me to sulk in the corner like a petulant child, completely sure that someone has to be cheating or doing things wrong, people can't just want something other than him.
 
I don't think I've seen this many votes in one place and absolutely neck and neck at this point. Don't even understand the point of voting for Prudence at this point though. I guess those guys can be a swing vote if they switch. But considering that stance seems to be closer to Faith than Truth…

Adhoc vote count started by 10ebbor10 on Oct 30, 2021 at 8:30 AM, finished with 2286 posts and 521 votes.
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