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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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MrHobbit said:
There is no confusion about canon, Boney has a guide for that. Ulthuan, though it has similarities to the Empire, is not the Empire. Your analogies are just completely wrong.

It isn't very clear, but there is reason to think that the High Loremaster isn't the ruling Prince of Saphery. During the reign of Phoenix King Aethis, who came and ruled from Saphery, the Swordmasters reported to High Loremaster Morvael about a resurgence in the Pleasure Cults, and Morvael (of Yvresse) then took his concerns to Aethis. That shows the High Loremaster both advising the Phoenix King and not being an Elector Count equivalent. Additionally, Eltharion, an Elector Count equivalent mentioned himself to be among Finubar's advisors.

Though Prince Teclis might get a vote in choosing Finubar's successor, so he is close to an Elector Count in that manner.
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Boney does have a guide. Belennaer running the Swordmasters is in it. So is Eltharion being blind. The canonicity guide doesn't make everything crystal clear.

The analogy seems pretty good from where I am. The Swordmasters hunt proscribed Cults throughout Ulthuan. Is it a 1-1 match? Of course not, but comparisons rarely are.

There's no reason to assume one has to be a "High Prince" to be Phoenix King either, and further, the White Tower was brand new during Aethis's reign. It would hardly be a stretch for the High Loremaster position to become a de facto ruler over the millennium and a half since then.

The closest Eltharion gets to calling himself an advisor is here:
Boney said:
Initial reactions among the Phoenix King's advisers were negative, but the point was very firmly raised that if there is a way to expand the Waystone network that Ulthuan depends upon for its survival, then that is something that should not be erased out of hand just because we did not come up with it.
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But I read the 'we' as talking about the Asur, not the advisors. It does mean Eltharion was in the room for that discussion, but that wouldn't necessarily make him an advisor either.

The Phoenix Kings are elected by every Prince in Ulthuan, so Teclis definitely gets a vote.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Boney does have a guide. Belennaer running the Swordmasters is in it. So is Eltharion being blind. The canonicity guide doesn't make everything crystal clear.

The analogy seems pretty good from where I am. The Swordmasters hunt proscribed Cults throughout Ulthuan. Is it a 1-1 match? Of course not, but comparisons rarely are.

There's no reason to assume one has to be a "High Prince" to be Phoenix King either, and further, the White Tower was brand new during Aethis's reign. It would hardly be a stretch for the High Loremaster position to become a de facto ruler over the millennium and a half since then.

The closest Eltharion gets to calling himself an advisor is here:

But I read the 'we' as talking about the Asur, not the advisors. It does mean Eltharion was in the room for that discussion, but that wouldn't necessarily make him an advisor either.

The Phoenix Kings are elected by every Prince in Ulthuan, so Teclis definitely gets a vote.
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The quote that showed Belannaer running the Swordmasters is from 5th edition. Editions from before 6th Edition are generally not canon, the Dwarf necromancer zone. Eltharion being blind is something that 6e toyed with and subsequent editions ignored. There isn't ambiguity about that.

The Swordmasters were founded on the order of one of the Phoenix Kings. And pretty much all of the entries that deal with their secret police side, portray them as acting under the authority of the Phoenix King.

Yes, I know you don't have to be a ruling prince to be elected Phoenix King. I had mentioned Morvael, who wasn't a ruling prince. Tyrion also isn't a ruling prince and is one of the favored to be Finubar's successor. Back to my point about Morvael, Boney used WFRP4e's Lustria in the other quest, which mentioned that he favored his home kingdom of Yvresse regarding staffing the Citadel of Dusk during his reign as Phoenix King.

And what is there to suggest that the High Loremaster is the ruling Prince of Saphery? The White Tower is only two millennia old, compared to Saphery's five or six millennia. We don't get enough of an insight into Asur politics to assume that. And there's nothing about the politics of the High Loremaster that would suggest they would automatically be Prince of Saphery. Two of the most notable High Loremasters aren't even from Saphery! Meanwhile, what we know about the position of High Loremaster heavily implies that it would be one of the Phoenix King's advisors.

What other groups did Eltharion mention being present during the discussion? He could have said among Finubar's court, but he said advisors.

Boney has also said that Teclis was responsible for noticing fluctuations in the waystone network. Considering how important the waystone network is, that if nothing else implies he is an advisor. I mean, do you really think there is someone in between Finubar and the position that oversees the Waystone Network and Ulthuan's secret police? Also the position oversees Ulthuan's foremost learning and magic institution.

Boney said:
The thing about Ulthuan noticing is the person responsible for doing so is fucking Teclis, the guy who has Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma for dump stats.
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Godwinson said:
It might be fundamental to the nature of Dhar itself, that it isn't actually aligned with Chaos (and thus its mutations) but is simply something that Chaos uses.

My working theory is that Dhar is much like the Winds themselves, the creation of Old One machinery that converts raw aethyr into magic that is firmly entangled in reality, and that Dhar is the result of some of that machinery being corrupted -- imagine, for instance, if the machinery that defined Ulgu was corrupted, and suddenly every instance and scrap of it now had corruptive effects applying the nature of it to others. Areas with strong Ulgu now steadily erase memories or distinctiveness of features, fog is corrosive. With that perspective, Dhar quickly follows as originally being the control mechanism for the Winds, turned against itself.
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Been a bit, but in the course of my reread I stumbled back across the thing that put me toward thinking this:
Boney said:
There's an artful elegance to that - the absorption of these energies are used in part to impart a resistance to magics in the Dwarven people, and that resistance is used to enhance the workings of the network that provides that power.

You spend quite some time lingering on that thought. That sort of elegance sparks the faintest hint of recognition in you, and you're not sure if it's simply an emotional resonance with the awe you feel when considering the enormous projects of the distant past, or if there actually is some sort of signature of interlayered efficiencies you're beginning to catch glimpses of. Could there be a commonality in the most ancient forms of these disparate magical traditions, in the same way that a common root is theorized for the languages of the world? A singular cunning knack of cunning beings that once allowed them to reshape this world and has been aped by those that learned from them? If so, would it be something of an artistic mien that would be truly unique, or would taking advantage of multiple parallel natural or induced efficiencies be a requirement for the greatest of achievements, a core skill once taught to or stolen by the Ancestor Gods, by Caledor Dragontamer, by the Belthani, by however many other ancient beings that have kept this world out of the gullet of Chaos?
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The First Secret of Dhar is an application of these principles, and the nature of the Winds as repelling each other, but Dhar attracting them, would be exceptionally useful if it had not been corrupted. Uncorrupted Dhar would have a nature that would be drawing things together, getting them to work together, and instilling a desired nature into something on a lasting basis.

This actually lends itself to another thought, which is that the Chaos Gods might not even be the source of this corruption, but instead being previous god-tools of the Old Ones that were then themselves corrupted. Whether from an error or failure or from some outside source, the comparison to the Winds collapsing together into Dhar, which has been corrupted but whose existence almost certainly was not originally corrupt, feels a bit too similar.
 
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Annals of the High King, 6990-7010 New
  • Apocrypha
    • Annals of the High King

    Reign of Thorgrimm Grudgebearer KA 6990 - 7010

    6994 - 6999: Pacification of Sylvania
    The new Elector Count Van-Hel launched a campaign of pacification against Sylvanias haunted hills, which in conjunction with a force of vengeance emerging out of Zhufbar, spiralled into an assault on castle Drakenhoff itself. Though the elector count himself died in the assault of Drakenhoff town, one of his underlings was able to rally the combined forces, and see to the destruction of the so-called rulers of Sylvania with their ancient lair. In the proceeding years the new elector countess has continued to pacify the region, allowing for the area to now be considered relatively safe to trade and transit for Zhufbar into the empire proper, no longer an active threat to the lesser holds that look to the engineering hold for protection

    - Four thousand Dawi lost over the course of the campaign
    - Zhufbar is now connected to the wider empires Trading Network
    - As a pacified province, no further invasions can occur from Sylvanias direction absent war with the Empire

    7001 - 7005: Reconquest of the silver depths
    Belegar Ironhammer, the latest heir to the throne of Karak eight peaks assembled a mighty force of both Dawi and Umgi in an attempt to reconquer the ancestral kingdom of Clan Angrund. given passive support from High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer, the reconquest achieved great success in reconquering two of the eight peaks before all seemed lost as the general combat attracted an enormous wagghh which hurtled through the devastated west gate. Fortunately, an Umgi magical superweapon had managed to be constructed in time to be used on the nascent waaggghhh birdmuncha, and saw the entire force reduced to ash. Lingering resentment remains however between the newly ensconced King of the eight peaks and the High King over Thorgrims failure to provide direct assistance against the wagghh and his lack of belief that it is more than a temporary reconquest.

    - Karak 8 Peaks restored to the Ankor
    - DC for construction projects in the 8 peaks until the High King and clan Angrund are reconciled increased by 2


    7005: The Klaxons fall silent
    With the reconquest of the 8 peaks, the haemorrhaging of Runic power the Ankor has gone through for generations now has ceased. The great Waystone Nexii providing enough energy for the Rune of Azamar and more besides ensuring no longer a slow death of Dawi kind. For the first time in his long reign, the crown of the Ankor rests but a bit lighter upon Thorgrims brow

    - Quest end via lack of runic power has been postponed


    7005: Queekish
    The Umgi have been busy in their work against the Thaggoriki, and during the conquest of the eight peaks managed to get enough information to construct a full translation of at least the basics of the Skaven's language. Sharing this only with trusted Thanes as well as Kings, the accumulated information about skaven and their activities will go far both in conducting the war against them and anticipating the blows that fall our way

    - Reduced Attrition attrition from skaven assaults on your holds
    - Receive occasional updates on skaven affairs
    - Receive updates on skaven alertness


    7008: The Dum expedition and Vlag restored
    An expedition to visit the eternally embattled sealed hold of Dum has been attempted with several great landships based on the designs from Barak Varr. Ultimately, it does seem that Dum is lost to the Ankor, as it seems to have welcomed the beastman spirit of Kor-Dum to be their protector, a sign of incomprehensible corruption or madness. However, en route to Dum, the expedition has uncovered the fate of lost Karak Vlag and restored it to reality after spending nearly two centuries lost in the aether. Several years of coaxing having gone into the effort, the lost Dawi now seem to believe that they have indeed returned to the mortal world, though the loss of their Runesmith guild and extreme measures taken while sheltering means their return to the Ankor has not been frictionless... The act itself has indisputably been accomplished by Mathilde Weber a manling great wizard who also lent her assistance to the Sylvanian and Eight Peaks campaigns, as well as the chief mind behind the translation of Queekish.

    - Karak Vlag restored to the Ankor
    - For one turn any interactions with Karak Vlag have their DC increased by 1


    7008: The Mathilde question
    Mathildes great successes in assisting the Dawi called for a great conclave of longbeards to determine how an Umgi could accomplish so much for the Dawi. They have announced to the consternation of many elders that the wizard is a returned dwarf soul, stolen from Dawi kind by her patron god Ranald.


    7010 The Eyes of Grungi Open
    With the reconnection of both Vlag and Eight Peaks to the Runic network, sufficient power could be spared to reactivate the eyes of Grungi that watch over the realm in real time, for all the mountains within view of the High King. With such knowledge, the Urk and Grobi that dare show their faces in rightful Dawi mountains will be kulled before they get a chance to trouble the Everpeak further. A brief actrivation of the gas forges of Morgrim some years afterward mending the rift with King Belegar as he becomes more convinced of THorgrim acting in the Ankors rather than hs own interests.

    - Massively reduced invasion size and threat for Karak A Karak
    - Mild reduction in attriction
    - Raproachment with Clan Angrund achieved


    7012 Silver road wars 2, with a Vengeance
    With the passes secure and a stronger Ankor than has been present in generations. Thorgrim begins marshalling his forces for a reconquest of the Silver road beneath Karak a Karak with the ultimate aim of at last liberating Mount silverspear from the clutches of the Urk.


    7016: Waystone reinvention
    A new method of waystone construction has been pineered by Mathilde Weber in conjunction with the Elgi of Laurelorn. Using some measure of Dawi ingenuity it provides a new method to contruct lesser waystones and reduce aetheric concentrations around our holds at a relatively marginal cost

    - Waystones will now automatically be constructed to plug gaps in the network surrounding our holds.
    - Waystone Nexus locations discovered, allowing us to further rebuild our fallen network
    - Runic experience increased by 1
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • Silverking said:
    I'm just imagining the memes of "Mathilde's a Dawi soul trapped in a manling body" since there's no other explanation of why every action involving this low-cost recruit picked up during the Karak 8-Peaks expedition keeps rolling so damn high.
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    I'm thinking about how many Dawi are wondering if they need to note down a grudge against Ranald for his 'theft'.
     
    Had a random thought, if Divided Loyalties was a magical girl anime then it would have gone something like this:
    1. Stirland and Sylvania were the first season with Van-Hel as the reliable senior/mentor/teacher character that helped her grow. Ends with his dramatic death and final episode power of friendship (IE Artillery).
    2. Season 2 is the 8-Peaks arc, with Mathilde ends up transferring schools and is now taking the role of the senior magical girl who helps nurture the newbies and help them grow. Culminating in the Birdmuncha Waagh where she activates the Mcguffin that was built up the entire season.
    3. Season 3 is the current arc, this is the "post-school" bit of the anime where is setting her own goals and seeking to address some of the underlying causes of evil that she fought against during the previous seasons.
     
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