Oh I'm not saying they wouldn't believe that the belt does that... Just that telling them you can without consequences will make them think really hard about if you already did without consequences...
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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Well not really, we would first have to design Ulgu+X spells, the belt on its own doesn't let you run Dhar through your soul.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Even if the answer was yes, why would you want to bring Ulgu Tongs back up? We don't have time to look into things like Windherding which will almost definitely work, why mess around with an inefficient way to maybe cast a dhar-ish spell when we can just get other wizards to help us do things?
The point of Ulgu Tongs was never to cast a Dhar-like spell, it was to cast spells of other winds safely. There's a lot of really useful and fun stuff in there. You can't really bring arbitrary other wizards with you on infiltration missions for instance.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
We barely go on infiltration missions anymore and we just took Johan on the closest thing we've been to one in ages. And again, we don't have the time for more likely and reliable options, plus we're generally against learning more battle magic because of the potential for miscasts - if Ulgu Tongs somehow works I bet its more miscast prone then any Ulgu spell.
- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
People already asked about bringing tongs back, apparently the college answer to that was "wizards have the incredible ability to get another wizard of the relevant wind to come cast the spell for them by asking nicely, maybe spending some favor"
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I missed that, thanks for the answer.
In the eyes of the colleges, Mathilde has the extremely worrying ability to observe Dark Magics and then reinvent them into something safe. The Matrix, Necrarch spellcasting, and now apparition blood are just some of the things she's done.
Currently the maths means that it is more profitable to let Mathilde do whatever the hell she wants (which is why we're getting this reward), but if we start heaping too much dark magic onto the scales, they will recalculate our value and they will kill the golden goose just to be safe.
I don't know if Ulgu Tongs will push us past the "meat is more valuable than eggs" threshold, but I'd prefer to not push up against that line.
Currently the maths means that it is more profitable to let Mathilde do whatever the hell she wants (which is why we're getting this reward), but if we start heaping too much dark magic onto the scales, they will recalculate our value and they will kill the golden goose just to be safe.
I don't know if Ulgu Tongs will push us past the "meat is more valuable than eggs" threshold, but I'd prefer to not push up against that line.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I don't think we published anything on that?
The best case scenario for Ulgu Tongs, the absolute peak of what could be most optimistically expected from it, is Mathilde being able to begin to spend a decade learning a whole other Wind, except less reliably, with much higher chances of much worse miscasts, and while spreading Dhar everywhere. Any more cynical evaluation will observe that Dhar forming in the middle of your spell is definitionally the beginning of a miscast and that a much more likely and still actually rather optimistic result would be that every spell would automatically miscast, even on success. Compared to the existing method of Ulgu Tongs known as 'being a Grey Wizard and asking a Wizard of a different Order to cast a spell for you', or even more portably, enchantments, I don't see what makes this even remotely worth pursuing.
Well, not the spells themselves, just the observations and countermeasures.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This paper is notable because we laundered insights from the Liber Mortis through it: we included more detail about what he was doing than we actually got from our observations so that we could show exactly how to fuck with it. Useful, to be sure, but definitely a "Man, Mathilde really got a good look at that dark magic, didn't she" moment.
Don't think so, the belt would have no way to tell 'Dhar that is actively part of the spell' and 'Dhar I should be purging' apart, in fact I'm not sure there would even be a difference. What makes Tongs at least theoretically achievable is the small amount of Dhar from the connecting point, the Lore of Stealth on the other hand actively uses Dhar to power its effects
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- Location
- Oklahoma
Usual reminder that, while the Belt prevents the direct effects of Dhar, it does absolutely nothing about the inherent corruption caused by cultivating the mindset required to use it.
That being, megalomania.
You still have to think Dhar thoughts to use Dhar.
(I'm also on the side of 'I've never seen the point of Ulgu Tongs', especially when we've had Windherding for actual years and done almost nothing with it despite it being an inherently more useful version of Ulgu Tongs.)
That being, megalomania.
You still have to think Dhar thoughts to use Dhar.
(I'm also on the side of 'I've never seen the point of Ulgu Tongs', especially when we've had Windherding for actual years and done almost nothing with it despite it being an inherently more useful version of Ulgu Tongs.)
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The second question is the answer to the first because you do not have to think Dhar thoughts to manipulate Dhar with Ulgu, you have to think Ulgu thoughts. Your soul isn't touching the Dhar and your mind is not directly shaping it. The only reason even human necromancers go insane is radiant Dhar exposure.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
That's where you're wrong. You're thinking of channelling which is when you pull the wind into your soul to manipulate that explicitly requires you attune yourself and think in ways that manipulate the wind. The whole point of Ulgu tongs (as one of the biggest proponents) was that you skip this entirely as you wield the other winds at a remove, So ulgu tonging dhar for instance uses the Ulgu mindset to manipulate dhar at a distance.
Now as it turns out we've been explicitly told that Ulgu tongs is not viable for normal wind usage because there's no level of technical skill where using Ulgu can manipulate the other winds without automagically making dhar so it's a dead end.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Does anyone have an assembled list of things that are remaining as even potentially-feasible with Windherder? Because as far as I can tell, we're at the point where every single use-case for it is "This is a waste of time, you were idiots to pick this trait".
- Location
- PA
Wind herding I suspect has the problem of well…
How do we mash the winds together to achieve Quayish, or do anything cool, as opposed to failing and getting another blob of Dhar for our trouble. Like it can be done to get cool stuff but we're shooting in the dark and by definition we'd need to involve someone else in our shenanigans, someone who could at any point decide 'nope I'ma report this heretic wizard!'
And I imagine annoyingly enough the Colleges don't have enough spare wizards doing magic for Mathilde swinging by to play conductor to be a good idea, or large scale rituals done by multiple people to make Windherder cool…
But I think we have the authority to maybe cobble something together, the problem is figuring out a goal point beyond 'doing multi-wind magic that doesn't involve making Dhar.'
Maybe if we could crib some spells from traditions that aren't as touchy about the Dhar thing…
How do we mash the winds together to achieve Quayish, or do anything cool, as opposed to failing and getting another blob of Dhar for our trouble. Like it can be done to get cool stuff but we're shooting in the dark and by definition we'd need to involve someone else in our shenanigans, someone who could at any point decide 'nope I'ma report this heretic wizard!'
And I imagine annoyingly enough the Colleges don't have enough spare wizards doing magic for Mathilde swinging by to play conductor to be a good idea, or large scale rituals done by multiple people to make Windherder cool…
But I think we have the authority to maybe cobble something together, the problem is figuring out a goal point beyond 'doing multi-wind magic that doesn't involve making Dhar.'
Maybe if we could crib some spells from traditions that aren't as touchy about the Dhar thing…
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I have the same feeling but I don't think it's actually warranted I think we had one serious attempt to use it which didn't go well and then we've never touched it since.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!
This is a list of spells that Boney has said Mathilde can try to make. I have organized the list by grouping similar spells and sorting by when ideas were suggested. Please bring any spells that you feel should be added to this list to my attention. Word of Boney relevant to spell creation...
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
Very notably, Windherding is really great if only we were to do some Enchantments with it! We've done one, and the Portentiv uses the trait but doesn't develop it.
It's like picking up generalship and then never commanding ever again.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy - Users' Choice!
This is a list of spells that Boney has said Mathilde can try to make. I have organized the list by grouping similar spells and sorting by when ideas were suggested. Please bring any spells that you feel should be added to this list to my attention. Word of Boney relevant to spell creation...
Very notably, Windherding is really great if only we were to do some Enchantments with it! We've done one, and the Portentiv uses the trait but doesn't develop it.
It's like picking up generalship and then never commanding ever again.
Well that is because we did not need more enchanted stuff. The one time we tried wind herding we had to throw the results at the Hochalander where one hopes it had some small impact, but there is no way to be sure. Hopefully the airship will give us a chance to use the trait.
- Location
- Canada
I think we silk robes provides a fairly good opportunity for wind herding, so there's an opportunity to catch the thread's interest there