Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
Mellowfellow said:
What's left of the coastline is limited to small fishing towns instead of thriving trade-ports because Marienburg actively sabotages any attempts at the Empire breaking their monopoly. I can't find the exact WoG outlining how Marienburg was responsible for wrecking two attempts at building a rival port in Nordland/Ostland but it's at least briefly mentioned in the WoG about naval policy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sure, but that´s kinda the thing. There is nothing on Coastline to really protect, and what is there the fleet stationed in the one port city that is there is more than sufficient for.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I think we need to let go of Marienburg. The pleasure cult that was antagonising relations between the Empire and Marienburg is destroyed, Von Whatshisface is probably dead, and the canal is now open.

The Marienburg situation is over, and we don't need to involve ourselves in it any more. Yeah, it sucks that the victims of the Skull River attack probably won't find justice, but that was never our job to begin with, and it's easy enough to point it the pleasure cult and blame them anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is your daily reminder that we do not know that the Marienburg pleasure Cult was behind the Skull River bombing! People, please pick the Skull River Ambush in the coming social turn! The uncertainty gnaws at me like piranhas gnawing at the Karaz-A-Karak metalsmiths.
 
Last edited:
Parabola said:
The plan with river waystones isn't to dump the flow in the ocean, it's to get them close enough to a nexus or regular waystone that it can then suck the flow up. No ocean pollution necessary.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh! I read the post wrong. It was talking about magic in general, not waystone magic. Sorry anyone who got the wrong impression, I'll go fix that.

Tobtorp said:
Your point isn't bad, it actually probably aligns with reality but we do have a somewhat alternative reading directly from boney too.

Which is that Eltharion the Grim, generally the prince with the least to say in a Prince council insisted.
I wouldn't be surprised if Eltharion had a bunch of political capital that he never uses because he doesn't see the point... But now he had a point he wanted and so he decided to get it.

Edit: and probably no one felt passionate enough about the topic to actually want to challenge Eltharion about it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think Eltharion doing that sort of thing would prick a lot of egos. So yeah, it could be rammed through, but there probably isn't much will to do anything more waystone related for a long time. The key part in my mind is that I don't think Eltharion would have insisted on going personally. Sending Eltharion is just the sort of thing I can see politicians with a wounded ego coming up with.
 
MrHobbit said:
I think Eltharion doing that sort of thing would prick a lot of egos. So yeah, it could be rammed through, but there probably isn't much will to do anything more waystone related for a long time. The key part in my mind is that I don't think Eltharion would have insisted on going personally. Sending Eltharion is just the sort of thing I can see politicians with a wounded ego coming up with.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I understand your reasoning, but Mathilde's read on the situation is that that is exactly what happened.
Boney said:
"Initial reactions among the Phoenix King's advisers were negative, but the point was very firmly raised that if there is a way to expand the Waystone network that Ulthuan depends upon for its survival, then that is something that should not be erased out of hand just because we did not come up with it." The look in his eye makes you suspect it was him that very firmly raised that point. "For that reason, I am here to open negotiations for Ulthuan to acquire full documentation of the techniques and methodology of your additions to the Waystone network, as well as anything related you are developing."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And then the fact that he makes reference to his own Kingdom here:
Boney said:
"The Waystones we have covered your lands and ours in is the artisanry of the Inner Kingdoms. In every foreseen scenario, it performs its task perfectly. But it does not deal well with the unforeseen, or with deliberate sabotage. What you have created may not be fit for Saphery's libraries, but there may be a place in Yvresse's armouries for something that can be taught and deployed quicker and easier than a Sapherian masterpiece."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
lends support to the notion that this is something he himself cares very strongly about.
 
To me, picking cooperation feels like a no brainer.
I just don't see any singular price that would be better long term, and i definitely do not see any offer like this materializing again, ever.
 
picklepikkl said:
I understand your reasoning, but Mathilde's read on the situation is that that is exactly what happened.

And then the fact that he makes reference to his own Kingdom here:

lends support to the notion that this is something he himself cares very strongly about.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, but Eltharion wouldn't be here on his own volition unless anyone who agreed with him (which probably includes Finubar) couldn't convince him that there were other people more suited for the task. And that this isn't a task he is suited for and there are important things he could be doing that he is extremely skilled at. Eltharion should understand the concept of delegation. He personally doesn't know much about waystones or human diplomacy. He has experience with overseeing the repairs of Yvresse's network, but he got Loremaster Belannaer for the magic parts. I don't think the Talisman of Hoeth has waystone knowledge in it.

I am confident in Finubar's diplomatic experience with humans to trust that he would have recognized that Eltharion is not the best choice for the task. Even if he was opposed to humans messing with the Waystone network, he's still an experienced enough diplomat to recognize that there are better candidates than Eltharion. He's Phoenix King because of how diplomatic he is with humans.
 
Last edited:
To preface this so we're on the same page, my position is that Cooperation is the most pragmatic option and am not advocating for Marienburg concessions, I just want to push back on this downplaying of Marienburg's belligerence and how much harm they actually inflict on the empire.
K von Carstein said:
Yes, but they're hardly making the coastline uninhabitable. They prevented economic growth in the Empire, that's true, but the Empire still can defend the coastline it has.

Marienbourg isn't completely innocent, but its not completely guilty either. Like often in international politics, there's faults on both sides. And my post was mostly responding to the allegation that "propping Marienbourg to defend outright colonial imperialism for the purpose of national gain" was the only reason for Ulthuan to defend it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Marienburg didn't just prevent economic growth, they directly funded attacks against those failed colonization attempts, which effectively left the majority of the coastline severely undeveloped/uninhabitable beyond small settlements. Like, Marienburg's policies crippled the Empire's coastline so much that there was nothing available for the Druchii to raid so they weren't automatically enemies of the Empire, unlike everywhere else.

Salkalten is a ghost town, and there's only two places to dock the 2nd Fleet in the coastline because the Empire can't even expand their northern ports. Marienburg is limiting the Empire's defensibility over base greed, they have Ulthuan guaranteeing their independence so they feel comfortable enough to provoke and gouge the Empire. While the Empire is guilty of imperalist revanchism, it's pretty standard for this setting's time period, compared to Marienburg's acts of piracy and sabotage which makes the Empire more vulnerable to the Enemies of Man.

The colonialism aspect is Ulthuan defending their only foothold in the Old World (Marienburg's Elf Quarter) against the Empire's internal attempts to reclaim an ambiguous breakaway state.

pucflek said:
Sure, but that´s kinda the thing. There is nothing on Coastline to really protect, and what is there the fleet stationed in the one port city that is there is more than sufficient for.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There is nothing to protect because Marienburg destroyed any attempts to build something subtantial there. The fleet is basically stuck in that one port because the Empire can't build any more infrastructure for them. Marienburg's agenda actively cripples the Empire's naval power projection, which benefits Chaos.
 
Last edited:
I don't think there is anyone more suitable for the task, except possibly Teclis, than Eltharion in Ulthuan.
Now, Finubar and rest of Ulthuani political aparatus might not know that, but for whatever reason, they got the best possible diplomat on the job for this one.
 
Why would Eltharion not go personally? He heard about something actually worth his time (new knowledge on the very important defensive magical infrastructure), and saw a lot of other elves immediately freak out and argue for erasing it. I can't read his mind, but ngl I wouldn't send people who want to destroy something to negotiate for it.
MrHobbit said:
He personally doesn't know much about waystones
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How much more does he need to know to negotiate? You said it yourself, he oversaw the repairs in his own lands. He is perfectly suited to determining how effective and cost efficient our solutions are, and that's exactly why he wants to buy them.
 
Last edited:
Personally?
I'd rather cooperation because as I see it-
Marienburg's Waystone is the KEY to why Marienburg gets to Marienburg.
We leverage political power and maybe we get them to stop being such a selfish pain…
But depending on how we swing that, we might end up just depopulating the Asur quarter and leaving the city that much more ticked and willing to do bad things in the future. And aren't the Druchii sniffing around?
And of course if Marienburg is already willing to use the Waystone for political and economic gain at the hands of it's 'allies'…
Render Marienburg truly obsolete by the Empire being able to point to our Waystone Project, and they will have much less importance, meaning less Asur hanging around with their skills and magic to enrich the city further…
Plus it won't be political when Marienburg's fortunes fade.
If it is political in-fighting everyone else just shakes their head. But if it's a clear 'we're doing this because Chaos sucks!' Then the realms of order can AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!!! If anyone starts to mess with it. THAT I value more.
 
Wanna kick Marienburg while it is down without giving up coperation option? Do you want Kislev to perpare for next Chaos Everchosen but are not sure how to go about it? Boy do I have a Genius idea for you, Pick the option below;

[] [Blood] Empire (Build a series of cannals that connects Dwarf-Empire canal network to Erengard, Kislev City and Karak Vlag with pre-determined and resonable access prices for the Empire and Dwarven citizens with in kind access to Empire Canals.)

There, I fixed it.

To explain it; With this option Empire gets access to sea of Claws via Erengard, Karak Vlag gets access to rest of the Karaz Ankor, Kislev gets cheap trade access to Empire canal and rivers and most importantly in case of Everchosen Empire armies can go from Altdorf to Kislev city at a blistering speed via riverboats rather than marching at a snails speed.

Boris has access to Vlag so he can strike a deal with them for funding I imagine (we might even put in a good word for him) so it won't break bank of Kislev as well. IT is I think a better option than book which we can get other ways but Boris won't think of a canal by himself.

Edit:
Second possibility is taking out Vlag as that looks harder so it is Empire canal extention to Erengard;
[] [Blood] Empire (Build a series of cannals that connects Dwarf-Empire canal network to Erengard and Kislev City with pre-determined and resonable access prices for the Empire and Dwarven citizens with in kind access to Empire Canals.)


 
Last edited:
Mellowfellow said:
There is nothing to protect because Marienburg destroyed any attempts to build something subtantial there. The fleet is basically stuck in that one port because the Empire can't build any more infrastructure for them. Marienburg's agenda actively cripples the Empire's naval power projection, which benefits Chaos.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why would they need to build more when they have itty bitty coastline.

Like sure, Marienburg policies prevent rise of more local infrastructure but that just means the coast is somewhat barren and that there isn´t as much trade going on, but i am not sure how much of an actual loss is that because quite frankly instead of building infrastructure for a coast that is already reasonably protected, they could instead throw men and money on one of the innumerable problems that plague the inner heartlands of literally every province.
 
pucflek said:
Why would they need to build more when they have itty bitty coastline.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's an incredibly flimsy excuse for Marienburg actually sabotaging attempts by another polity to build cities on its own coastline. It's literally none of Marienburg's business unless it's actually hostile to the Empire (it is actually hostile to the Empire).
 
Somic said:
That's an incredibly flimsy excuse for Marienburg actually sabotaging attempts by another polity to build cities on its own coastline. It's literally none of Marienburg's business unless it's actually hostile to the Empire (it is actually hostile to the Empire).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Which is why we should build even more canals to kick them down.

Consider to vote for my Blood idea above.
 
Somic said:
That's an incredibly flimsy excuse for Marienburg actually sabotaging attempts by another polity to build cities on its own coastline. It's literally none of Marienburg's business unless it's actually hostile to the Empire (it is actually hostile to the Empire).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean yes, but we don´t need to right every wrong on the planet and this is something that can be solved by might at arms. The current state of events is not great for the Empire, but it having one port that could maybe be trading instead of three doesn´t really matter. It hurts the cashflow some, but not more so than the ten billion beastmen, orks, chaos cultists and assorted gribblies that plague every forest from the World edge mountains to Sea of Claws.

In comparison, cooperation further stacks the advantages to a problem that cannot, in fact, be solved by just taking the colleges and three or four provinces worth of armies and go knock on the doors.

Like, i get the kneejerk reaction because i hate them too, but the Empire coastline is... its fine. It exists.
 
Last edited:
On the subject of our BLOOD BOON:

As far as Personal boons go a reciprocal book deal seems pretty much ok. Kislev isn't literally the furtherst civilized place in the Old World from K8P (I think that would be western Estalia) but it's pretty close, so it's not like having their books copied to KAU is much of a threat to them. There's really only the matter of pride, and making the deal reciprocal will hopefully go some way towards allaying that. It is going to take a long, long time before we actually get to the point of teaching our scribes Kislevarin and actually copying any of those books, but I think we have to take the burden of doing that ourselves because asking Boris to also copy all of those books will probably hurt Kislev too much - a ruler planning to quickly modernize his mostly-illiterate country probably has some uses for his scribes, and wouldn't be able to easily spare the workforce required to copy Literally Every Book.

On that note, I went back to the update where we had a chance to copy Kislev's library and I read this description
Boney said:
[ ] [KISLEV] Library: Writer's Rooms of Kislev

The headquarters of the government-funded scribes for a mostly-illiterate country, Writer's Rooms boast over eight hundred years of the transcribed history and culture of Kislev.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
which made me think about those government-funded scribes and how we might use them. Just commandeering them to copy all the books is too big an ask, but maybe we can use a few of them to train our scribes or teach them/Mathilde Kislevarin or something? I dunno, just throwing that out there.

But while a BOOK BOON barely makes me throw up in my mouth at all, I would still prefer something that doesn't benefit Mathilde directly. I don't know what an Empire boon would look like - the option of 'fuck Marienburg' is kind of appealing, but I don't really understand the political landscape well enough to understand the ramifications of that kind of ask. The option mentions "renegotiation of disputed borders" - is that a thing we care about? Are there border tensions between Kislev and Ostland/Ostermark that some sort of formal treaty will solve, improving relations between Kislev and the Empire while getting Mathilde some additional diplomacy cred?
Maybe just tell the Emperor we did some Waystone related thing for Boris (full details are classified, sorry) and he owes us a solid, let him figure that one out.

I didn't see many suggetions for Order boons other than the whole "give us all your male casters" thing which IIRC has been clarified to not be a particularly great idea by a few WoGs. I can't think of any good idea myself, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention a possible way of tying this boon to the Hedgewise. Shades of Empire mentions the Ostland and Ostermark Hedgefolk have an agreement with the Hags where each group shelters the other when they are being persecuted. I don't know if that's quest canon and if Mathilde is aware of it if it is, but if so maybe we can ask Boris to covertly use state resources to help shelter those Hedgewise and ensure they cross the border safely? Then we can ask Kurtis to let those Hedgefolk know that this new protection is courtesy of Mathilde Weber, please increase your cooperation with the Grey Order accordingly. Everyone wins! As a bonus, it's easy to believe that this concession was extracted from Boris for Waystone related reasons, possibly as part of a deal with the Haléthan Hedgewise and/or the Hag that joined the project.
 
Tasoli said:
Wanna kick Marienburg while it is down without giving up coperation option? Do you want Kislev to perpare for next Chaos Everchosen but are not sure how to go about it? Boy do I have a Genius idea for you, Pick the option below;

[] [Blood] Empire (Build a series of cannals that connects Dwarf-Empire canal network to Erengard, Kislev City and Karak Vlag with per-determined and resonable access prices for the Empire and Dwarven citizens with in kind access to Empire Canals.)

There, I fixed it.

To explain it; With this option Empire gets access to sea of Claws via Erengard, Karak Vlag gets access to rest of the Karaz Ankor, Kislev gets cheap trade access to Empire canal and rivers and most importantly in case of Everchosen Empire armies can go from Altdorf to Kislev city at a blistering speed via riverboats rather than marching at a snails speed.

Boris has access to Vlag so he can strike a deal with them for funding I imagine (we might even put in a good word for him) so it won't break bank of Kislev as well. IT is I think a better option than book which we can get other ways but Boris won't think of a canal by himself.

Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Would it be possible? The idea is ambitious, but I feel like I don't know enough about canals to tell whether or not it'd be asking the moon of Kislev.
 
pucflek said:
In comparison, cooperation further stacks the advantages to a problem that cannot, in fact, be solved by just taking the colleges and three or four provinces worth of armies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Except that marching armies to Marienburg is not a viable solution so long as Ulthuan is deliberately ambiguous about whether they would back Marienburg in defense of their independence. Y'know, like they did the last time the Empire tried to take Marienburg back with force of arms.

There's a reason why asking Ulthuan to finally give a concrete answer on the matter is a negotiation term as big as getting them to contribute to the Waystone project directly.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top