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Why would they need to build more when they have itty bitty coastline.

Like sure, Marienburg policies prevent rise of more local infrastructure but that just means the coast is somewhat barren and that there isn´t as much trade going on, but i am not sure how much of an actual loss is that because quite frankly instead of building infrastructure for a coast that is already reasonably protected, they could instead throw men and money on one of the innumerable problems that plague the inner heartlands of literally every province.
The loss is in the potential build-up of the trade/coastline so the Empire can have more capacity and resources to throw at whatever problems they have. I don't get your logic here, it's basically saying "the Empire has a lot of internal problems already, so it's better to stifle their growth and reduce their capabilities so they don't get distracted"
 
Would it be possible? The idea is ambitious, but I feel like I don't know enough about canals to tell whether or not it'd be asking the moon of Kislev.
IT looks like pretty small canal compared to what has been built already thanks to existing rivers. Vlag is the hardest part but access to Eregard is very viable. Could take out Vlag out if it looks like nonviable. Here is a map I added to intial post of what it would look like ,

But easier option if you like;
[] [Blood] Empire (Build a series of cannals that connects Dwarf-Empire canal network to Erengard and Kislev City with pre-determined and resonable access prices for the Empire and Dwarven citizens with in kind access to Empire Canals.)

Blue is existing river
Puple proposed canal.
 
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I don't think there is anyone more suitable for the task, except possibly Teclis, than Eltharion in Ulthuan.
Now, Finubar and rest of Ulthuani political aparatus might not know that, but for whatever reason, they got the best possible diplomat on the job for this one.
Yeah, ironically Eltharion was a great choice for talking to Mathilde. But it's not something literally anyone in Ulthuan would think of. I'm pretty sure even Teclis is diplomatic enough to recognize that he isn't the best choice.

And diplomacy and wisdom are some of his (many) dump stats.

Why would Eltharion not go personally? He heard about something actually worth his time (new knowledge on the very important defensive magical infrastructure), and saw a lot of other elves immediately freak out and argue for erasing it. I can't read his mind, but ngl I wouldn't send people who want to destroy something to negotiate for it.

How much more does he need to know to negotiate? You said it yourself, he oversaw the repairs in his own lands. He is perfectly suited to determining how effective and cost efficient our solutions are, and that's exactly why he wants to buy them.
Ulthuan, while diminished from the days of its Golden Age, is not small enough that it would not be a trivial task to find an elf who is trusted enough for the task and approves of the humans expanding the Network. There would be at least a few elves who were either neutral, were thought it was a good idea at the start, or were genuinely convinced it was a good idea. Finubar is Phoenix King because of how friendly he was with humans (among others). He would have at least a few allies who could have been sent instead.

Teclis would obviously be out, because he'd share too much. Tyrion is actually really diplomatic, can burnish Teclis's name, and can serve as a show of force too.

Eltharion was a Prince even before Grom attacked, and a good military commander. It doesn't take a lot of political experience to recognize that your talents are not suited for something, especially for something as obvious as this. Delegation is a key part of leadership and Eltharion is an effective leader.
 
Except that marching armies to Marienburg is not a viable solution so long as Ulthuan is deliberately ambiguous about whether they would back Marienburg in defense of their independence. Y'know, like they did the last time the Empire tried to take Marienburg back with force of arms.

There's a reason why asking Ulthuan to finally give a concrete answer on the matter is a negotiation term as big as getting them to contribute to the Waystone project directly.
The boon is about getting a deliberate answer on Ulthuan's stance on the matter of the canal, not Marienburg's independence as a whole. "Will you back up Marienburg playing fuck-fuck games about the canal?" is a different question from "Will you back up Marienburg if we march armies on the city to force them back into the Empire?"

an explicit stance from Ulthuan regarding the canal matter instead of their current deliberate ambiguity.
 
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The loss is in the potential build-up of the trade/coastline so the Empire can have more capacity and resources to throw at whatever problems they have. I don't get your logic here, it's basically saying "the Empire has a lot of internal problems already, so it's better to stifle their growth and reduce their capabilities so they don't get distracted"
The thing is there is not much to develop. What use is a Port city for trade when its not connected to the riverine system that Marienburg got so rich of?

There is no doubt some wealth to be gained, but overall its not such a massive loss, or at least it does not seem that way to me. Sure, Nordland (well not so much Nordland, now that Eonir claim those lands again) and Ostland might have somewhat more to gain, but Empirewide it really is better to just focus on developing existing infrastructure and solving internal problems.

I don´t think its a boon, not really, but its also not really some massive issue that needs solving asap, because the only port that could bring Empire truly massive wealth is one that connects Reik and Aver and Stir and its tributaries to the Sea of claws and the wider ocean, and that port exists, has been built ages ago, is called Marienburg, and refuses to be helpful. So the Nordland/Ostland Coastline being barren is not great but its not some great burning issue.

Meanwhile the Waystones could hold a few centuries, maybe millenia, but who knows when the confluence of events that brought all those people together to one table happens again, or if the scraps of knowledge we have hard time recovering will still be recoverable by then.

The Empire has held without Marienburg for nearly century and does not really seem to be that much worse off. It can hold a while longer.
 
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I didn't see many suggetions for Order boons other than the whole "give us all your male casters" thing which IIRC has been clarified to not be a particularly great idea by a few WoGs. I can't think of any good idea myself, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention a possible way of tying this boon to the Hedgewise. Shades of Empire mentions the Ostland and Ostermark Hedgefolk have an agreement with the Hags where each group shelters the other when they are being persecuted. I don't know if that's quest canon and if Mathilde is aware of it if it is, but if so maybe we can ask Boris to covertly use state resources to help shelter those Hedgewise and ensure they cross the border safely? Then we can ask Kurtis to let those Hedgefolk know that this new protection is courtesy of Mathilde Weber, please increase your cooperation with the Grey Order accordingly. Everyone wins! As a bonus, it's easy to believe that this concession was extracted from Boris for Waystone related reasons, possibly as part of a deal with the Haléthan Hedgewise and/or the Hag that joined the project.
I'm not sure how beneficial this would be, the Hedgewise want to keep their independent traditions/identity so asking them to increase their cooperation with the Grey Order is by definition the opposite of that. This would help protect the Hedgewise from further persecution/assimilation, but unless the Colleges/Articles of Magic becomes more lenient towards integrating outside magic traditions, it can't really translate into significant benefits for the Colleges.
 
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Marienburg didn't just prevent economic growth, they directly funded attacks against those failed colonization attempts, which effectively left the majority of the coastline severely undeveloped/uninhabitable beyond small settlements. Like, Marienburg's policies crippled the Empire's coastline so much that there was nothing available for the Druchii to raid so they weren't automatically enemies of the Empire, unlike everywhere else.

Salkalten is a ghost town, and there's only two places to dock the 2nd Fleet in the coastline because the Empire can't even expand their northern ports. Marienburg is limiting the Empire's defensibility over base greed, they have Ulthuan guaranteeing their independence so they feel comfortable enough to provoke and gouge the Empire. While the Empire is guilty of imperalist revanchism, it's pretty standard for this setting's time period, compared to Marienburg's acts of piracy and sabotage which makes the Empire more vulnerable to the Enemies of Man.

The colonialism aspect is Ulthuan defending their only foothold in the Old World (Marienburg's Elf Quarter) against the Empire's internal attempts to reclaim an ambiguous breakaway state.
They did? I remember reading about deliberately lowering the prices of goods to make the new ports unprofitable, but nothing about sponsoring attacks. And even then, what was Marienbourg supposed to do? Do nothing and let the Empire weaken its position in the name of "not making the Empire vulnerable to the ennemies of Man"? Taking steps to have your country remains strong is perfectly normal to do, the Empire wanting to retake Marienbourg is proof of that. Marienbourg is obviously in it for its own gain, but the Empire is not different.

Concerning Ulthuan defending Mareinbourg, I still don't see what's colonial about it. They have a piece of their sovereign territory inside an allied nation that got independence from its former country, and so defend both. Yes it's self-serving, but that's not something linked to colonialism.
 
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I'm not sure how beneficial this would be, the Hedgewise want to keep their independent traditions/identity so asking them to increase their cooperation with the Grey Order is by definition the opposite of that. This would help protect the Hedgewise from further persecution/assimilation, but unless the Colleges/Articles of Magic becomes more lenient towards integrating outside magic traditions, it can't really translate into significant benefits for the Colleges.
Well, I did say that "I can't think of any good idea", but I don't think this issue in particular is a huge stumbling block - there are some services that the Hedgewise can do for the Grey Order that wouldn't infringe on their traditions, such as providing the Colleges bags of magic rocks, and by the time the Waystone project is concluded there'll probably be more of those.
 
I didn't see many suggetions for Order boons other than the whole "give us all your male casters" thing which IIRC has been clarified to not be a particularly great idea by a few WoGs. I can't think of any good idea myself, but I would be remiss if I didn't mention a possible way of tying this boon to the Hedgewise. Shades of Empire mentions the Ostland and Ostermark Hedgefolk have an agreement with the Hags where each group shelters the other when they are being persecuted. I don't know if that's quest canon and if Mathilde is aware of it if it is, but if so maybe we can ask Boris to covertly use state resources to help shelter those Hedgewise and ensure they cross the border safely? Then we can ask Kurtis to let those Hedgefolk know that this new protection is courtesy of Mathilde Weber, please increase your cooperation with the Grey Order accordingly. Everyone wins! As a bonus, it's easy to believe that this concession was extracted from Boris for Waystone related reasons, possibly as part of a deal with the Haléthan Hedgewise and/or the Hag that joined the project.

I do not think asking about the Hedgewise be a good idea politically. It is one thing for the secretive order of weird spirit-binders to hide away the proscribed magicians of the Empire, to have the Tsar of Kislev do the same is a diplomatic incident waiting to happen. No one in power really cares about the Hedgewise right now. If you bring them to the attention of the Tsar that could well change and there went their best protection. Plus for someone starting off as far as Notrland the harder part would be getting to Kislev as opposed to staying in place, the Ostlanders are at least across the border.
 
Yeah, ironically Eltharion was a great choice for talking to Mathilde. But it's not something literally anyone in Ulthuan would think of. I'm pretty sure even Teclis is diplomatic enough to recognize that he isn't the best choice.

And diplomacy and wisdom are some of his (many) dump stats.


Ulthuan, while diminished from the days of its Golden Age, is not small enough that it would not be a trivial task to find an elf who is trusted enough for the task and approves of the humans expanding the Network. There would be at least a few elves who were either neutral, were thought it was a good idea at the start, or were genuinely convinced it was a good idea. Finubar is Phoenix King because of how friendly he was with humans (among others). He would have at least a few allies who could have been sent instead.

Teclis would obviously be out, because he'd share too much. Tyrion is actually really diplomatic, can burnish Teclis's name, and can serve as a show of force too.

Eltharion was a Prince even before Grom attacked, and a good military commander. It doesn't take a lot of political experience to recognize that your talents are not suited for something, especially for something as obvious as this. Delegation is a key part of leadership and Eltharion is an effective leader.
Eltharion is a prince with a prince's budget, a prince's influence on Ulthuan as whole, and a personal interest who can ram through a deal that he really wants. Or he can send an entire negotiating team for his kingdom's interests that will probably dance around the point and drag things out for a decade, and that's after he pruned away the real time wasters.


The list of people he can delegate to with an encyclopedic knowledge of what he needs and the resources available to him including skeletons in the closet of his fellow princes and their personal pressure points starts and ends with him.
 
That is funny way to spell Erengard. Let us build a canal to north so Empire can reach to the Sea of Claws and Kislev could benefit from the trade.
I was thinking of writing that your proposal was actually a pretty good way to sidestep that issue, at least with regards to trade, but i didn´t have time or wherewithal to look through the maps first so i ended up leaving it out. But it does seem to me that if we can connect the Reik river system to Kislev River system all the way to Erengard, it could be beneficial indeed.

It wouldn´t solve all issues, we would still be dependent on third party power in any case, but since Marienburg would have to accept that there is now an alternative, they might well be willing to drop their insane tariffs.
 
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That is funny way to spell Erengard. Let us build a canal to north so Empire can reach to the Sea of Claws and Kislev could benefit from the trade.

Erengrad is vastly out of the way.

There's hundreds of miles from the closest point in the Empire's chain of rivers (somewhere near Bechafen) till Erengrad: it'd probably be a multi decade project. That route is also fairly vulnerable and Erengrad itself is more exposed to the Sea of Claws and Norscan pirates rather than Marienburg.

Then there's the distance from Altdorf and Nuln - the Empire's primary centres of trade and industry to Erengrad to consider.


Overall I don't think Erengrad is as good of a choice for the Empire as regaining Marienburg and it certainly isn't as fast and cheap of a choice: if we can get the Asur to back off Marienburg will fold to combo between the Colleges + regular troops.
 
I am not too jazzed about asking for another canal because well....

16th of October 2019. That is the RL date that saw the first glimmer of the canal which is only now completing. I do not feel like waiting four more years for the next one and given that actions in quests tend to last longer as the quests mature it is likely to take even longer than that. I'd rather take the books and actually see the results sooner.
 
Eltharion is a prince with a prince's budget, a prince's influence on Ulthuan as whole, and a personal interest who can ram through a deal that he really wants. Or he can send an entire negotiating team for his kingdom's interests that will probably dance around the point and drag things out for a decade, and that's after he pruned away the real time wasters.

The list of people he can delegate to with an encyclopedic knowledge of what he needs and the resources available to him including skeletons in the closet of his fellow princes and their personal pressure points starts and ends with him.
Small correction, but it isn't his title of Prince that gives Eltharion a lot of influence in Ulthuan. There are loads of Asur Princes. It that he is Warden of Tor Yvresse that gives him power, along with his many military victories. He isn't here to represent Yvresse, he is here to represent Ulthuan as a whole. He is here on behalf of the Phoenix King, not working out a deal for the Kingdom of Yvresse.

Anyways, Eltharion would not have been alone in thinking it is a good idea for the humans to expand the network. He wouldn't even have been alone in saying that they should buy whatever the Empire found. If no one else, I am confident that Teclis and even Finubar, the Phoenix King himself, would have been for the deal. It would be trivial for Eltharion to find some who is more suited to talking with humans. He has ruled over Tor Yvresse for over sixty four years at this point. It would certainly be easy for Finubar to find trusted subordinates to serve as the delegate.

Even if Finubar was outright opposed and had to be brought around, which I consider fairly unlikely, he wouldn't send Eltharion if he could avoid it.
 
Addressing a few anti-Marienburg arguments:

'Second Fleet is fine for protecting the coast we do have' is an equivalent argument to 'One shoe is fine given the other foot got hacked off'. Though, to fully complete the metaphor, it would be more along the lines of, 'One shoe is fine given the other foot got hacked off, also the person who hacked it off has a monopoly on prosthetics and won't lower the prices so we can replace it and also threatens to hack off the second foot if we look into developing another prosthetics source'. You could almost make an argument for tariffs being Marienburg's right as a sovereign state that just happens to sit on the only safe northern port, until you got to the part where they directly sabotage any attempt to build a second safe one.

'Marienburg won't be so bad now we have the canal', also doesn't recognize the point - opening the Sea of Claws is about more than opening trade in that direction and it's been said over and over again; it's about protecting more or less then entire north Empire (also, the canal doesn't directly benefit Kislev, and protecting the Sea of Claws would).

'Marienburg's ability to pressure the Empire isn't that big or that predacious' - multiple dwarven kings collaboratively decided to open trade at the absolute opposite end of the Empire with the canal, and according to Bitternach, even a temporary embargo by Marienburg was enough to do 'unacceptable things to the budget'; to the point that Bitternach's go-to attitude about the canal until Mathilde corrected him was to ask if she could convince them to stop it. Yes it is that big, and yes they are that absolutely predacious - Marienburg has an effective monopoly on trade tariffs for the Empire and is willing to fuck over anyone, anywhere to keep it, including the entirety of Eight Peaks and the Karaz Ankor on the other side of the world.

Arkat Fooger becoming its leader might help things slightly - it might also change exactly nothing, as he's an elected leader beholden to the Staadtsrad. Marienburg's policy is monopoly at all costs, and I doubt a dwarf leading it (who is hardly considered part of the Karaz Ankor proper at all) is going to change that.

Any sort of argument about Marienburg's 'rightful sovereignty' should do well to remember that it wasn't some righteous stand against the tyranny of the Empire - it was first made an electorate by our best emperor (Magnus the Pious) to avoid a succession crisis and civil war to claim it, and then sold off by our shittiest emperor (Leopold) piece by piece until it was vulnerable enough for them to secede. The Marienburg oligarchs and electorate literally bought the rights to maintain the Imperial Fleet and then siphoned it into their own private navies, embezzled enough taxes until they had a war chest and then seceded when the Empire would be least able to respond.

This is all to say, the Marienburg problem, unlike the Waystone problem, is immediate and will always be immediate until we stop it from being able to explode whenever their merchant princes decide it is most profitable to do so, with zero regard for the knock on consequences to the world at large - which it does frequently, and to a certain degree, constantly.
 
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If we use the Blood boon for a canal, could we use the Vlag boon to have them help? They are even better stoneworkers than before they vanished, which is saying something considering it was one (if the smallest) of the Old Holds
 
Addressing a few anti-Marienburg arguments:

'Second Fleet is fine for protecting the coast we do have' is an equivalent argument to 'One shoe is fine given the other foot got hacked off'. Though, to fully complete the metaphor, it would be more along the lines of, 'One shoe is fine given the other foot got hacked off, also the person who hacked it off has a monopoly on prosthetics and won't lower the prices so we can replace it and also threatens to hack off the second foot if we look into developing another prosthetics source'. You could almost make an argument for tariffs being Marienburg's right as a sovereign state that just happens to sit on the only safe northern port, until you got to the part where they directly sabotage any attempt to build a second safe one.

'Marienburg won't be so bad now we have the canal', also doesn't recognize the point - opening the Sea of Claws is about more than opening trade in that direction and it's been said over and over again; it's about protecting more or less then entire north Empire (also, the canal doesn't directly benefit Kislev, and protecting the Sea of Claws would).

'Marienburg's ability to pressure the Empire isn't that big or that predacious' - multiple dwarven kings collaboratively decided to open trade at the absolute opposite end of the Empire with the canal, and according to Bitternach, even a temporary embargo by Marienburg was enough to do 'unacceptable things to the budget'; to the point that Bitternach's go-to attitude about the canal until Mathilde corrected him was to ask if she could convince them to stop it. Yes it is that big, and yes they are that absolutely predacious - Marienburg has an effective monopoly on trade tariffs for the Empire and is willing to fuck over anyone, anywhere to keep it, including the entirety of Eight Peaks and the Karaz Ankor on the other side of the world.

Arkat Fooger becoming its leader might help things slightly - it might also change exactly nothing, as he's an elected leader beholden to the Staadtsrad. Marienburg's policy is monopoly at all costs, and I doubt a dwarf leading it (who is hardly considered part of the Karaz Ankor proper at all) is going to change that.

Any sort of argument about Marienburg's 'rightful sovereignty' should do well to remember that it wasn't some righteous stand against the tyranny of the Empire - it was first made an electorate by our best emperor (Magnus the Pious) to avoid a succession crisis and civil war to claim it, and then sold off by our shittiest emperor (Luitpold) piece by piece until it was vulnerable enough for them to secede. The Marienburg oligarchs and electorate literally bought the rights to maintain the Imperial Fleet and then siphoned it into their own private navies, embezzled enough taxes until they had a war chest and then seceded when the Empire would be least able to respond.

This is all to say, the Marienburg problem, unlike the Waystone problem, is immediate and will always be immediate until we stop it from being able to explode whenever their merchant princes decide it is most profitable to do so, with zero regard for the knock on consequences to the world at large - which it does frequently, and to a certain degree, constantly.

You know for such an urgent and immediate problem it's a shocking oversight from GW that they do not present it that way in canon, what with there being a single attempt to take the place in the last sixty years. You would think that if the entire Northern Empire was at stake someone would have tried to fight after they got wizards back. For that matter isn't it odd that Marienburg only became a problem we noticed in this quest once the canal changed the status quo
 
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You know for such an urgent and immediate problem it's a shocking oversight from GW that they do not present it that way in canon, what with there being a single attempt to take the place in the last sixty years. You would think that if the entire Northern Empire was at stake someone would have tried to fight after they got wizards back. For that matter isn't it odd that Marienburg only became a problem we noticed in this quest once the canal changed the status quo
Given that GW is also the company that decided to release the End Times instead of firing everyone who suggested and supported it and banning the use of those words forever, this is much less of a slam dunk argument then it might seem. :V
 
You know, of the available tributaries that we could give Ulthuan, I think ironically the most useful one might be the one that the Project didn't develop itself: the lornalim. The main reason we're not rolling those out where we can is that they're big pots of gold for any human to dig up. Ulthuan has lots of gold and no humans.
 
If we use the Blood boon for a canal, could we use the Vlag boon to have them help? They are even better stoneworkers than before they vanished, which is saying something considering it was one (if the smallest) of the Old Holds
In theory, we could, but major infrastructure projects are expensive, and Vlag is not as wealthy as Kadrin or Zhufbar or Barak Varr at this point. I'd be wary of asking something that diverts significant attention away from rebuilding.
 
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