In fairness that's because pre-canal Marienburg was referred to as an opportunity for recidivism rather than as a problem.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- wild blue yonder
I actually meant Leopold, who started the selling off process, but thanks for the catch.
Given that GW is also the company that decided to release the End Times instead of firing everyone who suggested and supported it and banning the use of those words forever, this is much less of a slam dunk argument then it might seem.
Granted but unless the GM is planning to de-canonize the past 60 years of history in Empire Marienburg relations that is not very relevant. We are not looking at a situation where one state sees the other as an existential threat, we are looking at a frosty relationship that has only recently and for a very specific reason risen to the level of threats of embargo and acts of sabotage. That proximal cause has resolved.
The stronger the Empire's position becomes (like for example the Colleges getting a new supply of Orbs) the more the Asur will start to reconsider their Marienburg policy.
Likewise if it looks like the Asur won't back Marienburg to the hilt Marienburg's oligarchs are going to be disinclined to take the chances with the Empire's army: they're likely to cut a deal; maybe rejoin with an Electoral seat or remain independent but stop taxing Imperial shipping.
Not really. Mathilde was hyperfoused on the Sylvania/Vampire problem while she was in Stirland; then was focused heavily on K8P (and Skaven intrigue and more vampire stuff) and then on the Vlag expedition. Her only exposure to Imperial trade was fairly indirect: via economic initiatives at the eastern side of the Empire's trade network.
If Mathilde was more focused on the Empire's coastline she would have hit her head on Marienburg a lot more often.
Somic
It's meow or never
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Of course, the Marienburg option is a big deal. It's a common enough problem that we know we can convince everyone in the project to get behind it, even while the other options exist; it's in the tier where it can stand alongside them.
It's also a political problem. Entities can apply political means of mitigating it. The canal might not have defanged Marienburg entirely, but the whole enormous, years-long endeavor went by and they managed to do exactly nothing about it save rattling sabers (and backing off the moment sabers started getting rattled back) and ambushing one transport (which may or may not have been the work of a hidden Chaos faction within Marienburg, which is being thoroughly rooted out). Honestly, if they start actual genuine shit, we might just be able to pull off a large alliance to collectively tell them to sit down.
Meanwhile, the option to get Ulthuan in on the project is unique to it, unique to now, the absolute best option for the success of the project itself, and if we don't take it and don't figure out solutions to all the roadblocks ourselves, nobody else is gonna do the job. The Asur both kinda gave up on maintaining the larger network outside of emergencies, and don't regard younger races as worthy of the breadth of requisite lore, so they aren't gonna fix everything independently.
Sure, the Marienburg option would solve everyone involved a lot of pain, that's why it's an option. But cooperation would unlock a whole tree of possibilities that would otherwise just stay locked. Are we seriously considering letting go of that for the sake of advancing a political conflict?
It's also a political problem. Entities can apply political means of mitigating it. The canal might not have defanged Marienburg entirely, but the whole enormous, years-long endeavor went by and they managed to do exactly nothing about it save rattling sabers (and backing off the moment sabers started getting rattled back) and ambushing one transport (which may or may not have been the work of a hidden Chaos faction within Marienburg, which is being thoroughly rooted out). Honestly, if they start actual genuine shit, we might just be able to pull off a large alliance to collectively tell them to sit down.
Meanwhile, the option to get Ulthuan in on the project is unique to it, unique to now, the absolute best option for the success of the project itself, and if we don't take it and don't figure out solutions to all the roadblocks ourselves, nobody else is gonna do the job. The Asur both kinda gave up on maintaining the larger network outside of emergencies, and don't regard younger races as worthy of the breadth of requisite lore, so they aren't gonna fix everything independently.
Sure, the Marienburg option would solve everyone involved a lot of pain, that's why it's an option. But cooperation would unlock a whole tree of possibilities that would otherwise just stay locked. Are we seriously considering letting go of that for the sake of advancing a political conflict?
And the true underlaying cause for that being the case could easily be that GW writers were too incompetent/ lazy/ distracted with corporate demanding other things to properly calculate the realistic consequences of such a situation. We know Boney can and did change canon when it didn't make sense to him. Will he ? I don't know, but the point is: just because GW didn't bother with paying attention to the situation, doesn't mean Boney or the thread would not or should not.
It's not as if the Empire had being sitting on It's Laurels about Marienburg in the setting, they have being attempting to deal with the problem it represents for decades. First with warfare, then with internal development for new endeavours then reinforcing what they do have in order to avoid the Shenanigans Marienburg did to their efforts.
The choice for cooperation with Ulthuan is obvious but part of the reasoning for why Marienburg was offered is that politically solving this issue would have being much more tempting option for a more Empire centric character. Since the animosity is bad enough to lead to this opinion on Marienburg for the Empire according to Boney.
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- Location
- wild blue yonder
Are we seriously considering not removing the biggest political, economic and naval problem of the last century for the sake of blueprints on how to fix something that isn't broken that we're already part of the way towards figuring out ourselves?
Resonant
Procrastinator Supreme
Sure, I just think these potential services would merely be minor side-benefits that is less impactful than BOOK boon since the Hedgewise by nature want to avoid scrutiny and keep an ambiguous relationship with the Grey Order, as they'd otherwise be pressured to assimilate by the grinding machine of the Empire.
Something that isn't broken... yeah I am done here.
Somic
It's meow or never
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"Something that isn't broken" is explicitly broken in several ways, see: Troll Country, Marienburg being a bottleneck, Forest of Shadows, etc.
We literally cannot figure passcodes out ourselves, we couldn't even experiment for too long without annoying Caledor. None of the other leylines proposed, even theoretical ones, solve the coverage problem.
And that's only the parts of what you said that are flat out wrong, before getting into how useful it would be to have access to the greatest part of surviving Waystone lore, and giving the Asur access to a variety of cheaper inventive methods to rebuild the network, and (just for the cool character interaction possibilities) getting at least one Asur collaborator to ping things off of, etc...
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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- The Destination of Fate
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I will make the observation that if we use the Night Prowler (and thus divine magic) to steal from Marienburg, then it's possible we won't need Ulgu to do so, which is the main concern of the Vow: that you would abuse Ulgu to personally enrich yourself (and which would make the general populace of the Empire further distrust Grey Wizards).
I will also make the observation that Marienburg is not currently part of the Empire and also being assholes, and thus we do not need to worry about any of their opinions.
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Seriously though, Marienburg will be there to fuck over tomorrow. Ulthuan will likely only be on the negotiating table here and now. We should take Cooperation.
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- North Wales
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As a point of order, air transmission theoretically solves it. It's just that that solution is very likely to stay theoretical even if we put in the R&D work because short of having wind spirits guide the stuff the entire way between two stones, it seems logistically unworkable in practice.
To put this bluntly I dislike Marienburg quite a lot, but I would put the burghers in charge of the Empire of bloody Sigmar if it got us the means to make a Nexus because that involves the general good of every sane sapient being on the planet, it involves children not mutating into horrors and tearing their way out of their mothers' wombs, it involves wizards not being driven mad by dreams of demons and travelers not being ripped apart by the hungry dead, it involves monsters not devouring whole villages into their ever hungering gullets and so so much more horror lessened.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
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- Belgium
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We don't know if it was Marienbourg who ambushed that convoy, there's no proof and several other suspects with both the means and motive.
Yes, exactly! The original network was build by the Asurs, who were then joined by the Dawi. We already have the Dawi working with us, getting the other half of the equation would help tremendously.
edit: if the Asurs join the Project, we will have on board basically every Order magical tradition that is proven to be good at waystones, excluding the Cathayans.
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- Location
- Earth
There was also a noticeable uptick in piracy in the trade routes around the canal when it was being constructed. We can't prove it was Marienburg, but it's the logical assumption to be made.
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Again to preface this by clarifying my position, I prefer Asur Cooperation over Marienburg Concessions, I just want to point out that Marienburg was and still is a major asshole ever since it seceded, and while Waystones do take priority over the political issue Marienburg represents, I am pushing back on this narrative of "Marienburg ain't so bad" because they were terrible enough for the Empire to be okay-ish with considering Druchii diplomacy if it would help with stopping Marienburg's shitfuckery.
Ulthuan's Elf Quarter is effectively a colony, and when Marienburg seceded from the Empire due to a corrupt ruler (Dieter), Ulthuan supported their client-state to secure their investment against another imperial power. It has very clear colonial connotations since Marienburg only managed to retain its independence because of Ulthuan's support, so it was effectively Ulthuan carving away a breakaway state from the Empire.
As for Marienburg funding attacks, it was not from Boney but from Codex's post elaborating on what they've done in canon and later supported by the WoG which mentions Marienburg's sabotage.
emphatic point they keep circling back to.
When you're actively sabotaging, funding piracy and attacks in order to keep a grip on your trade monopoly then maybe it's not just self-interest but unconscionable greed? Marienburg's independence was not under threat, they just wanted to keep profiting massively at the expense of the Empire's well-being and further vulnerability to Chaos.
Ulthuan's Elf Quarter is effectively a colony, and when Marienburg seceded from the Empire due to a corrupt ruler (Dieter), Ulthuan supported their client-state to secure their investment against another imperial power. It has very clear colonial connotations since Marienburg only managed to retain its independence because of Ulthuan's support, so it was effectively Ulthuan carving away a breakaway state from the Empire.
As for Marienburg funding attacks, it was not from Boney but from Codex's post elaborating on what they've done in canon and later supported by the WoG which mentions Marienburg's sabotage.
Not really? Marienburg was responsible for the sabotage of Salkalten and Neues Emskrank which left them dilapidated ghost towns. Their default move is to fund piracy against the Empire's trade if it threatens their monopoly. The Empire may not look at them as an existential threat because they've gotten used to the festering wound that is Marienburg, but it's certainly an
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xamaplak
WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'RE @SOUP?
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Co-operation with the Asur may well lead into future opportunities to say "fuck Marienburg". Like, as much as I'd love seeing EC Mathilde Weber of Westerland (Weberland?), Waystones seem like the more prudent choice. Get expert tech experience on the world saving project or fuck up an admittedly awful nuisance; yes, allied nobility and merchants and navies may prefer the latter, but the former is more important.
Also, what we ask for here and now? It's going to shape perceptions. Because sure, we wrote Asarnil's memoirs, but this is likely going to be most Asur's first impression of us, and I'd prefer "oh, primarily a scholar" as opposed to "ah, a political actor".
Also, what we ask for here and now? It's going to shape perceptions. Because sure, we wrote Asarnil's memoirs, but this is likely going to be most Asur's first impression of us, and I'd prefer "oh, primarily a scholar" as opposed to "ah, a political actor".
- Location
- Sweden
Are we seriously considering not getting the otherwise completely impossible to acquire information that will allow us to fix the biggest existential problem of the Old Worlds history for the sake of slight economic increases that could already be on their way anyway?
I will also note that if we don't actually steal for our personal benefit (say, if we drop it all in the Imperial Dragon's gold pile, or in Belegar's vaults, or in Roswita's treasury) then we're not violating the Vow either, even if we did use Ulgu.
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- North Wales
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Can people maybe not get so hyperbolic about poo-poohing the impact of the choice they don't like?
Getting Ulthuan on board with the Waystones is a very big deal—for the Waystones project itself
Getting Ulthuan to back off on Marienburg is a very big deal—for the members of the Project
This isn't a case of "Your option sucks and will have LITERALLY NO IMPACT ITS USELESS, this is the only one that's worth taking". They're both great options. The choice here is whether we want to maximise the future impact of the project itself, or whether we're willing to trade some amount of success from the project for gains elsewhere.
Getting Ulthuan on board with the Waystones is a very big deal—for the Waystones project itself
Getting Ulthuan to back off on Marienburg is a very big deal—for the members of the Project
This isn't a case of "Your option sucks and will have LITERALLY NO IMPACT ITS USELESS, this is the only one that's worth taking". They're both great options. The choice here is whether we want to maximise the future impact of the project itself, or whether we're willing to trade some amount of success from the project for gains elsewhere.
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Not the Marienburghers! That is a step too far!
There is nothing just about the Empire retaking Marienburg. It's not like it would be a great injustice, it's just a nothingburger moralwise. The Empire wasn't anywhere near as bad the Ethiopian Empire, but I don't think anyone would deny that Djoubti, Eritrea, and Somalia have a right to level tariffs on goods that travel through them to Ethiopia. Tariffs are just a nothingburger. Everyone levels tariffs and poking at neighbors that annoy is normal. To my recollection a good chunk of Marienburg's history of sabotaging rivals was during two periods. The Era of Three Emperors, which was a period of mass civil war and Marienburg was one of the claimants to the crown. It has also sabotaging rivals after Magnus too, and even post-independence. But again, sabotaging rivals isn't offensive, it's just a normal thing. The Colleges of Magic loath the Elementalists and really want to burn it to the ground, for instance. They have been gradually taking moves to dissolve it too.
The entire reason the Empire has sea-going warships is because of revanchism. It doesn't care that much about the coast on the Sea of Claws. The only valuable thing on the coast when Marienburg was still part of the Empire was Marienburg itself. Marienburg not being enthused about the First Fleet travelling through it is completely and entirely reasonable.
Marienburg threatened an embargo because it would lessen their influence on the Empire. Now, if it comes down to it, the Empire can reroute most of its needs through the Black Lake. Marienburg's future leadership is not going to be able to leverage a threat anywhere near potent as what Bitternach was fearing from now on.
Marienburg's policy is that business is good for business. Arkat Fooger doesn't care about the canal because it doesn't hurt Marienburg that seriously in the long-term. Currently the people most opposed to the Canal are going to fall out of the Directorate and the people who benefit it are going to enter it. We already saw an example of that with the De Roelefs. Fooger said they stood the most to lose, but they managed to turn it around pretty quickly.
Marienburg had been an elector for centuries before Magnus, as I mentioned earlier, they were even one of the Emperors during the Era of Three Emperors. Magnus just gave the burghers the choice to elect the Elector. I genuinely do not care that Marienburg seceded. I don't care about a bunch of burghers wanting to pay less taxes, but I also don't care about an empire that wants more territory. It's basically a wash in my eyes. Not paying tariffs is nice, but it's just that. Marienburg isn't going to throw another fit about another canal, unless idk, it's one to to the River Urskoy. But I'm not sure if that is possible with current technology. And that one would be even easier to defang.
The Imperial Navy is also politically irrelevant for that same reason. "Fuck Marienburg" is Policy One of the Imperial Navy, not the Empire as a whole. The Imperial Navy is just irrelevant. It only really has ocean going capability because the Empire wants to take back Marienburg at Some PointTM.
That is not what Ulthuan is offering. They are offering an immense amount of knowledge about Waystones. As I've said, they can still build waystones on their own. There is a lot of work they could help us avoid. They also have secrets of how to let casters tap into waystones to boost their casting. They know where the nexuses are. They have their own notes about the nexuses. They have the best leyline method, ect ect.
Oh yes, definitely. Marienburg is an asshole as you point out. I just don't think it is anywhere near as threatening as it is being portrayed as. Although part of the reason they're willing to deal with the Druchii is that the Druchii just don't have the capability to bother the capability much.
Like if Ulthuan was offering the Empire to get Marienburg back I'd take the offer. But that'd be a stupid thing for Ulthuan to offer.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
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The Elf Quarter is no more a Asur colony than the Réunion is a French one, it's either sovereign Ulthuani territory or an extra-territorial enclave. I still don't see the colonial connotation in a state propping up another that is dependent on it for maintaining its independence.
xamaplak
WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU'RE @SOUP?
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Also, one of the reasons Ulthuan's so attached to Marienburg is because of Waystoney things, right? Making replicable, relatively cheap nexuses (nexi?) might not be as direct as asking Ulthuan to take a step back, but idk it could go a long way.
Also, getting nexuses that are hooked up to the network? Sylvania. Possibly even Mordheim could be salvaged. The border princes, the badlands, new settlements, maybe expanding the Karaz Ankor network. Lots of places could use Nexusesesesesi.
Also, getting nexuses that are hooked up to the network? Sylvania. Possibly even Mordheim could be salvaged. The border princes, the badlands, new settlements, maybe expanding the Karaz Ankor network. Lots of places could use Nexusesesesesi.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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- The Destination of Fate
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And, of course, there's all sorts of mischief wee could get up to in Marienburg without enriching anyone. Almost assuredly the Marienburg houses all have their own ways of trying to get one over each other. We could just... obtain proof that they are blackmailing or stealing or scamming one another and deliver the relevant information in the hands of those that would benefit from it, and then sit back and watch the fireworks.