- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Wait, it's making the dwarves just straight-up pay the Empire for Marienburg's nonsense?
Good grief. That's unacceptable.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Good grief. That's unacceptable.
I think the help break the blockade one is the best.
gunboat politics are a very common thing in and around this time period and usually won't the worse in death.
most of the time a few shots are fired, both sides know who is going to win, and the loser runs off with their tails between their legs.
gunboat politics are a very common thing in and around this time period and usually won't the worse in death.
most of the time a few shots are fired, both sides know who is going to win, and the loser runs off with their tails between their legs.
No, but they're definitely not equipped for all the Empire's trade to flow through them overland.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Agreed. That's a fucking terrible way to solve this, and burns the dwarves hard for Marienburg being idiots.
- Location
- Greece
... Not actually an impossible proposition for the Dawi.
- Location
- Australia
More it assumes the dwarves will burn themselves in response to Marienburg bullying them, which they won't do.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
A question here: How big is Marienburgs elven population, and how many of them are nobility?
I can't help but feel that Ulthuan wouldn't agree to this unless Marienburg had some very personal backing of some very influential people.
I can't help but feel that Ulthuan wouldn't agree to this unless Marienburg had some very personal backing of some very influential people.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
It'd take even longer than the current canal, though.
Yes, frankly I don't believe the Dwarves would agree to just bankroll the Empire for 5 years.
But by that point the other channels will be done, and the whole thing will be over.
Not that I'm against it, spite is totally justified.
Your reasoning has a very obvious fault line, to wit: The dwarfs will never back down therefore there's no elf that would call their bluff relies on the fact that all elves are perfectly rational actors that are also willing to disown parts of their group which can possibly threaten the whole.
That's heavily suspect, I straight up don't trust brinkmanship. The dwarves at least have a mechanism to disown people who have failed the collective if some shit does go down (Slayerdom) whether the Asur are able and willing to do the same is something that we literally don't know, and chancing it to cause a war (even a 'small' one) is foolhardy.
- Location
- Greece
The answer to that is most likely not known to the Empire or Mathilde,
- Location
- Australia
Marienburg is ruled by the wealthiest of businessmen and it's also a city where everyone's got their knives out. If the city lost trade, there'd be a lot of top businessmen who'd lose their positions and lives. This is a matter of personal survival for them, so they're willing to throw their people into war no matter how slim the odds of victory are so long as it gives them even a slightly better chance of maintaining their life, wealth, and power. Elven allies or lack thereof have little bearing in their decision-making.
Part of Marienburg is 'the Continental Exarchate of the High Kingdom of Ulthuan', which is legally owned by Ulthuan. It's a source of a lot of wealth and prestige, and gives warm fuzzies to the sort of Elf that yearns for the days when Ulthuan had an Empire.
I would go for advising for a blockade breaking/establishing, but admit we have skin in the game. If the elves think that blockading Marienburg is an act of war for posing an existential threat to the "nation" of their ally then we can turn around and say that they already declared it by posing a existential threat to our nation.
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It does not rely on them being perfectly rational actors. It relies on them being as rational as they have been over the last three thousand years and not committing suicide. Also comparing dwarf and elf cultures to the point of positing 'elf slayers' is a deep misunderstanding of their culture. Their pride is not collective, not pride in Ulthuan, it's individual.
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- Location
- Leeds
People can trade, they just can't travel through the city to trade. Which means unloading the boats, moving heavy goods on foot over a swamp and the reloading on the other side of the city.
Oh and watch out for bandits while you're at it *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*.
This isn't war, this is just enforcing their borders, its not their fault that their borders happen to be the only way to the sea from the empire.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I don't think that's what Boney is saying. At least, I thought it was about just toughing out the downturn. If your interpretation is correct, then "Go to Barak Varr to break the blockade" would be the only real option left.
Sure, they resolved the original grudge - but not the million grudges that were earned during the course of the war. But I am not talking about states declaring war at each other, what I am talking about is more like Korean War, where Soviet pilots were fighting American pilots but there was no war between their countries. So a lot of individual elves on their individual ships with their individual troops can fight Barak Varr fleet and soldiers, and that is not going to restart the War of the Beard fully, but it is going to cause a lot of dwarven and elven deaths.
That implies the sort of intrigue that is alien to the dwarfs. If state resources are being used than it's a war and war is to be prosecuted to the bitter end.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Here's the clarification Boney put into the update after I asked him about the ambiguity in the option:
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
In the event that all of the Elves who felt strongly enough to start a second War of the Beard were in the fleet close enough to respond, it would still only be a particularly unpleasant outbreak of Elf-Dwarf tensions, and would not lead to a further war.
The Elves do not, under any circumstances, want a second War of the Beard. The average Elf's response to coming across a Dwarf who insults him for being an Elf is to stoically ignore them, and then later complain to other Elves about how sad it is they're so stuck in the past. I'm not joking, there was a quote floating around somewhere.
Boney has updated the option to clarify:
It's pretty much exactly that.
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Considering the answers in order, both from a truth perspective and a "what is best way to guide things" perspective.
[ ] The High King could make it so
This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.
This seems like a non-starter. I don't want to be responsible for a bunch of dwarves taking the slayer oath and splitting Karaz Ankor even further.
[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
In a way, this is the fairest answer. This is an Empire political problem, and they ought to pay for its resolution. If they hadn't lost control of Marienburg, the Empire could tell that rogue city to lump it. But even if it's the fairest, is it the best answer? All the work gone into the canal to date is wasted, and there's a massive wealth transfer from the Empire to Karaz Ankor that will just sit in dwarven vaults doing nothing good. No canal will be built.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
Long term good, short term weakness that all of the Enemies of Law might take advantage of. Still, it's a tempting long term investment.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
This isn't likely to cost too many dawi or human lives, as it keeps the fight on the seas where fewer will die during battles. It also results in the canals being built and breaks the power of a very corrupt city.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
Oh god no, last thing we need to do is reignite a dwarf/elf conflict.
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
It's hard to say what this would result in.
Can't give up responsibility like this. Hard pass.
[ ] I don't know
Wash your hands of the matter.
Can't give up responsibility like this. Hard pass.
So considering all options, I think this one has the best case for weakening the forces of Order the least right now, while investing for long term good.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
[ ] The High King could make it so
This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.
This seems like a non-starter. I don't want to be responsible for a bunch of dwarves taking the slayer oath and splitting Karaz Ankor even further.
[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
In a way, this is the fairest answer. This is an Empire political problem, and they ought to pay for its resolution. If they hadn't lost control of Marienburg, the Empire could tell that rogue city to lump it. But even if it's the fairest, is it the best answer? All the work gone into the canal to date is wasted, and there's a massive wealth transfer from the Empire to Karaz Ankor that will just sit in dwarven vaults doing nothing good. No canal will be built.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
Long term good, short term weakness that all of the Enemies of Law might take advantage of. Still, it's a tempting long term investment.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
This isn't likely to cost too many dawi or human lives, as it keeps the fight on the seas where fewer will die during battles. It also results in the canals being built and breaks the power of a very corrupt city.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
Oh god no, last thing we need to do is reignite a dwarf/elf conflict.
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
It's hard to say what this would result in.
Can't give up responsibility like this. Hard pass.
[ ] I don't know
Wash your hands of the matter.
Can't give up responsibility like this. Hard pass.
So considering all options, I think this one has the best case for weakening the forces of Order the least right now, while investing for long term good.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Yeah asking the dwarfs to pay for Mareinburg's messes because we are terrified that these two ancient superpowers will get into a duel to the death over the Empire's trade is looking more and more unpalatable by the moment.
But elves don't need to bring their state resources. Individual noble elves do in fact own enough fleets and mages and soldiers to wage a sizable conflict on their own.