- Pronouns
- He/Him
Except, this is only if things go all the way to the end. They're not going to immediately go for violence, as I've said multiple times.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The elves in Marienburg are mostly traders and civilians. They are not going to be fighting ironclans in defense of a blockade.
Look what it comes down to it is are we so afraid of Ulthuan even looking in our direction, so utterly craven that we will make Karaz Ankor pay for the blokade? Are we going to risk a weakened Empire or a weakened Karaz Ankor suffering death and destruction from their many many other enemies because we dare not disturb one hair on the high elves head?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The key word there is individual elves. There are too many people involved in the decision-making process for this.
It's not. Breaking the blockade would be breaking whatever infrastructure they could use to block the river, and probably sinking some ships - assuming they didn't back down. Imposing another blockade would prevent any ships from going to Marienburg, which would actually do just as much damage to the Empire, because the ships have to pass through Marienburg to get where we need them to go.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
"A" I think that we might actually be the foremost living expert in on Skaven that isn't a Skaven. At least I can't think of anyone else that even has a good claim of being a peer on the topic. Of course that is mostly because most people know nothing about them.
- Location
- Australia
It will absolutely not bind the Empire and the Karaz Ankor together. The Karaz Ankor is getting told by the Empire to put up with Marienburg bulling not only the Empire but the dwarves too, and to pay the Empire for the privilege of doing so.
- Location
- France
We should play it safe and not try to break the blocade. Marienburg seems to itch for a reason to make a war out of this because it's to their advantage. I'm not keen on giving them any excuse, even if our actions are reasonable. Let's just have the Empire and the Dwarves eat the economical cost in the short term. In the medium and long term, it isn't sustainable for Marienburg. They are already losing and this is their chance to change that. Let's not play their game.
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[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
To clarify: this would involve the Karaz Ankor paying the Empire for what they lose in trade income, as well as arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.
This is essentially Empire going to Kraz Ankor saying "We preffer to stand with Davi rather than Marienburg opportunits. Help us make it so." which with some luck should go over well. Stronger ties and trust between Dawi and Empire is ever a good thing. Long-term benefits are also a very good thing. Plus, no loss of life or risk of new Dwarven-Elven war. War could weaken Empire even more than disruption of trade.
It's not perfect solution by any means, but best out of available options.
On negative side (outside of costs) Marienburg will be spending all the favours and inflience they have to sabotage things - just remember spider-silk edict banning dwarves. On possitive side, there is good chance that Marienburg seeing Empire not giving up despite the loses will just cut the loses and accept new status quo.
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
To clarify: this would involve the Karaz Ankor paying the Empire for what they lose in trade income, as well as arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.
This is essentially Empire going to Kraz Ankor saying "We preffer to stand with Davi rather than Marienburg opportunits. Help us make it so." which with some luck should go over well. Stronger ties and trust between Dawi and Empire is ever a good thing. Long-term benefits are also a very good thing. Plus, no loss of life or risk of new Dwarven-Elven war. War could weaken Empire even more than disruption of trade.
It's not perfect solution by any means, but best out of available options.
On negative side (outside of costs) Marienburg will be spending all the favours and inflience they have to sabotage things - just remember spider-silk edict banning dwarves. On possitive side, there is good chance that Marienburg seeing Empire not giving up despite the loses will just cut the loses and accept new status quo.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Any non no-canal choice we take is going to do this. We're just trying to figure out which will cost the least, in lives and money.
As opposed to making them pay for the blockade, or making them pay for the blockade? Any option that leads to the continuation of the canal is getting them to shell out. But gold is more replaceable than lives, and getting the canal done will trivially reimburse everybody involved while Marienburg withers on the vine.
The best revenge will be living well.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
This is a wildly unfair characterization of people's reservations about sending in the ironclads. It's not "utterly craven" to be concerned about a literal grudge match between two of the world's greatest defenders.
- Location
- Greece
We were the first to translate their language, we have a good claim of being "the" fullstop, not that we can brag about it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's also a little much to suggest that picking that option guaranteed conflict immediately.
The current dynasty has only been in power for 54 years, and they didn't really inherit anything of use from Dieter IV.
- Location
- Australia
It's going "Marienburg is pushing us around. Let them push us around and furthermore give me money." It will go badly.
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While the Marienburgers are absolutely bastards who deserve to be humbled, it is simply not worth the risk. While it may not be likely any chance of starting a war between the elves and the dwarves is to high and frankly unnecessary. When the cannal is completed Marienburg will be severly weakened meaning that at confrontation at that point would be much easier and the only reason we need to involve the dwarves at all is because currently most of the provences of the empire are busy or recovering. If we ask the dwarves for help now, it might not be fair to them and we might be weakened temporarily but in the long term we will gain significant benefits, will strengthen our hand for the future and will not potentially start a war that would weaken us far more than any temporary trade disruption.
- Location
- florida
Thank you for the response.
I think taking the economic slap to solve the MLC problem in the long term is worth it. We will just have to run anti sabotage on the cannal.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Oh, right, effectively complete purge of the diplomatic corps by simple incompetence, same as we have going IRL right now. Yeah, objection withdrawn. Ugh. >_<
It's not making the Empire and the dwarfs eat the consequences, it's mostly making the dwarfs eat them and building resentment al the while that the elgi lackeys are making them pay. That will have consequences of its own.
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Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
On the subject of Dwarven Ironclads vs the Elf Navy, in the Dreadfleet game we see two hero ships that are a High Elf Dragon Ship and a Dwarven Ironclad which are considered to roughly be on the same level. So we can safely assume that at least in terms of their top tier ships that the Dwarves and Elven navies are on par in terms of 1 vs 1 engagements.
Also to put things into perspective the other ships were the Empire's Flagship crewed by a legendary pirate, a Legendary Pirate's ship who is so favored by the sea god that she is considered his daughter by some, a Powerful Sorcerer's ship that has multiple Djin at his command, a Vampire's Castle that is essentially a pseudo-black ark, a literal Ghost ship, a Chaos Dwarf Mecha Kraken sub, a powerful Tomb King ship and an undead sea monster fused with skaven technology.
Also to put things into perspective the other ships were the Empire's Flagship crewed by a legendary pirate, a Legendary Pirate's ship who is so favored by the sea god that she is considered his daughter by some, a Powerful Sorcerer's ship that has multiple Djin at his command, a Vampire's Castle that is essentially a pseudo-black ark, a literal Ghost ship, a Chaos Dwarf Mecha Kraken sub, a powerful Tomb King ship and an undead sea monster fused with skaven technology.
- Location
- Australia
We do not rule the dwarves. They will not submit to Marienburg; they will not weaken themselves for the city's sake.
- Location
- Washington
Honestly, Marienburg is probably getting a grudge out of this. In some ways it's better to make that apparent to Marienburg NOW and maybe they'll decide actually the don't want a grudge, and if they do want to get a grudge then the fighting is under circumstances that Ulthuan possibly sees as Marienburg's own fault, and with Imperial Backing, than it is for them to finally settle the grudge down the road at a point where Ulthuan sees it as the dwarves starting it.
The thing is there is no ultimatum from Ulthuan, there is no hint of and elf ship. The possibility of elves is enough for people to drop the financial burden squarely on the dwarfs.
You see the problem? This is Marienburg and the river that flows through it is the Reik which is the only connection between the ocean and a river-network that spans most of the Empire. Marienburg doesn't need to do any aggressive action to embargo the Empire, simply not allow passage through its city which is well within its right. And if you want to break the embargo you need to more or less force your war through the city...
Also I find it a bit unfair to say that the Mairenburgers are an hostile, unredeemable villain for defending itself against the Empire and striving to keep their independence...
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It should be remembered that Marienburg is not very unified within itself. This embargo is going to be cutting their own throat as much as everyone else. I expect that there will be many factions within them willing to help with smuggling. Also if it is clear that the empire isn't going to cave they will likely stop the embargo long before the 5 years are up.
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Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
On the subject of my previous mention of the Dreadfleet it actually has a pretty good story and to help put those ships into perspective here is a video that tells the story in a very nice fashion.
I don't think anyone thinks it gauranties conflict, the issue is that if conflict does arrive however unlikely that might be the consequence might be literally world ending. In the face of that expending some gold of which the dwarves have plenty (unlike lives) however unfair the need to do so might be, would seem to be the lesser of 2 evils.