For a quest that has repeatedly demonstrated how insanely powerful magic users can be and loves to come up with ways to more or less singlehandely destroy entire armies with it I feel like you seriously underestimate the sheer magical firepower the High Elves can wield and bring to bear. I am unsure how exactly an ironclad is supposed to deal with senior high elven mages experienced in naval warfare, even if its shielded against direct attacks they can still summon storms, killer waves etc. from a safe distance.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
For a quest that has repeatedly demonstrated how insanely powerful magic users can be and loves to come up with ways to more or less singlehandely destroy entire armies with it I feel like you seriously underestimate the sheer magical firepower the High Elves can wield and bring to bear. I am unsure how exactly an ironclad is supposed to deal with senior high elven mages experienced in naval warfare, even if its shielded against direct attacks they can still summon storms, killer waves etc. from a safe distance.
Well time to no longer be a landlocked empire
They don't not really, not to fight Barak Var in its entirety. That would take the resources of at least a kingdom.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Now now people, there's another option here that you aren't considering. Possibly because we can't say it out loud.
[ ] Marienburg will unfortunately soon be hit by an unrelated necromancer incident, leaving them vulnerable
Think about it, the Liber Mortis is detailed enough that any random smuck capable of using magic becomes an army-level threat, and Mathilde is no mere smuck. We have the Empire declare war over this threat and then, just as the Marienburg armies are getting ready for a proper fight (and preferably before the elves get involved), BAM! Sudden army of skeletons appears and saps their strength.
People, we have here a golden opportunity to not only solve this mess but also bring Marienburg back into the fold with an absolute minimal loss of Imperial and Dawi lives. Even better, with Mathilde at the helm we can be as sure as is possible that the Mariburgian civillians won't be harmed, and by the time everything is over we can have the undead clean themselves up with a strategically placed application of the Second Secret. As long as we don't get caught it'll be great, and by now Mathilde is pretty good at making getaways.
This is all within our current skillset, by the way. Won't even need an action for studying.
[ ] Marienburg will unfortunately soon be hit by an unrelated necromancer incident, leaving them vulnerable
Think about it, the Liber Mortis is detailed enough that any random smuck capable of using magic becomes an army-level threat, and Mathilde is no mere smuck. We have the Empire declare war over this threat and then, just as the Marienburg armies are getting ready for a proper fight (and preferably before the elves get involved), BAM! Sudden army of skeletons appears and saps their strength.
People, we have here a golden opportunity to not only solve this mess but also bring Marienburg back into the fold with an absolute minimal loss of Imperial and Dawi lives. Even better, with Mathilde at the helm we can be as sure as is possible that the Mariburgian civillians won't be harmed, and by the time everything is over we can have the undead clean themselves up with a strategically placed application of the Second Secret. As long as we don't get caught it'll be great, and by now Mathilde is pretty good at making getaways.
This is all within our current skillset, by the way. Won't even need an action for studying.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
Of course, it had to be friggin' elven sovereign territory in the middle of Marienburg. We can't (ed: Navally) blockade them without going to war with Ulthuan.
I reckon it's time to tighten those belts and try to get any cargo in through Barak Varr and the Border Princes.
- Location
- Germany
I am reminded of the Skaven End Times quest.
In our great attack on Tilea the naval part of our force was just casually wiped out by a few Elves conjuring up a storm as a small favor to Myrmidia.
Admittedly, our navy was shit, an Ironclad would have survived the storm, but still an example of them destroying an entire fleet with minimal effort.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Bah, wretched Elgi think they're so superior with their ridiculous magic. Let's see how they handle a real navy!
More seriously, whilst it wouldn't be entirely one-sided, I think you are seriously underestimating the qualitative difference between a wooden ship of the line and a dreadnought historically. The elves would get some shots off but their fleet is made of glass cannons comparatively, and Dwarven ships are certainly designed to handle storms.
Having said that, I am still approximately as sure as I can be in votes like this that the Elves will not commit to a fleet battle with the Dwarves.
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- Location
- Greece
Runes and runesmiths/runelords have also been shown to match magic's influence in the battlefield repeatedly in this quest, and Dawi can field those. Its why the war of the beard was an even conflict and why most elves are still afraid of restarting it.
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Breaking a blockade imposed by Marienburg isn't the same as imposing a blockade on Marienberg.
You are straight out wrong, individual elves do go around and fuck up Dwarves because of resentment over war of Vengeance, so widespread animosity does exist. Even if Ulthuan as a polity wouldn't want to enter a new war with the dwarves that says nothing about the elves that are actually in Marienburg or the elven nobles that actually invested in Marienburg to fulfill their colonial wet dreams.
(And I didn't say anything about elven slayers lol; I pointed out that if a dwarf fucks up enough to cause the next War of Vengeance the Dawi culture has a way to disown them to deescalate, if some noble Caledorian asshole decides to jump the gun does the High King possess the authority to meddle directly within the one of the provinces? How the Phoenix King's court works is obfuscated to us)
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
To clarify: this would involve the Karaz Ankor paying the Empire for what they lose in trade income, as well as arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.
In my mind, this is the only serious option we can take. We can't blockade them due to the Ulthuan lands in Marienburg, it'd be like laying siege to a friggin' embassy. And holding off on this will only get worse with time.
IMHO this is the best way to get rid of the Marienburg monopoly that won't have us going to war with the Elgi.
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
To clarify: this would involve the Karaz Ankor paying the Empire for what they lose in trade income, as well as arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.
In my mind, this is the only serious option we can take. We can't blockade them due to the Ulthuan lands in Marienburg, it'd be like laying siege to a friggin' embassy. And holding off on this will only get worse with time.
IMHO this is the best way to get rid of the Marienburg monopoly that won't have us going to war with the Elgi.
its not blockading marienburg, is breaking the marienburgs blockade on the rivers.
Firstly, I wouldn't be so sure about that - Ulthuan is much stronger than Barak Varr or even Karaz Ankor, and the parts of it who won't mind picking a big fight with dwarves + the parts who are willing to fight for Marienburg are not especially small. Secondly, while it's possible that they can't fight Barak Varr in its entirety, would it commit the entirety of its forces here? They do have plenty of other responsibilities. Thirdly, even if they can't win the fight, it doesn't mean they won't go into it anyway. And lastly, let's not discount the fleets of Marienburg and the mercenaries it can hire, which would give much more strength to the elven forces than Imperial fleets would give to the dwarven one.
- Location
- florida
It's a sticky wicket that's for sure.
This is also technically not our problem...
Out of simple curiosity how much dosh does K8P have? @BoneyM
Would be be able to keep enough plates in the air to execute the plan Kfrar suggested?
This is also technically not our problem...
Out of simple curiosity how much dosh does K8P have? @BoneyM
Would be be able to keep enough plates in the air to execute the plan Kfrar suggested?
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
Essentially same thing if they suddenly give part of the river to the Elgi.
I won't comment on the entire plan, but K8P definitely has the liquidity to capitalize on the situation.
- Location
- Aotearoa
And with luck, their ability to do so in the future.
Combined with the canals being built, this leads mid-term to weakening Marienburg enough that reclaiming it is a legitimate option... which is also why we shouldn't underestimate how far Marienburg will go here, to maintain their independence and profits.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I like this, it immediately told me that he doesn't have a clear view of things. I definitely don't think of Eight Peaks as remotely traditionalist, and Belegar was quite clear that the original hold was dead and his new hold has an incredibly bright future.
Huuuuh. So Mr Firebrand's whole spiel is something that Mathilde now believes with her Advanced Dwarf Diplomacy? That had come with a note about how it wasn't necessarily quest canon, lol.
Motherfucker. Those pricks are sabotaging a huge economic engine to preserve their monopolistic stranglehold on river trade.
Looool. Clearly doesn't know a lot about what's been going on at Karak Eight Peaks. We're arguably a leading expert.
Hmmm. I am leaning this. Knowing that this involves blowing up their navy and river-blocking infrastructure and then pointing a giant gun at anyone who may be tempted to rebuild is more than I expected this to mean, though. Land invasion is an absolute No, but I worry that this will also be very incendiary. Tanking the losses by brute forcing overland routes until it is done is the peaceful workaround but god that will hurt.
Honestly I'm seeing a ton of anti-war sentiment and whilst I understand it, appeasement only leads to marienburg pushing their boundaries more and more. They are hostile actors who have time and time again weakened the empire with their policies.
Not building these canals will just continue the status quo and continue to let them bleed the empire. Personally I suggest having barack var's navy help protect it and if there is a war let marienburg be the agressors.
Not building these canals will just continue the status quo and continue to let them bleed the empire. Personally I suggest having barack var's navy help protect it and if there is a war let marienburg be the agressors.
- Location
- Canada
This is what I'm inclined to go with.
The Dwarves could be convinced to stop... but the moment they find out why they were asked to stop (and they would, because Marienburg would have no reason not to tell everyone), they would be absolutely furious.
The Empire asking them to stop or make reparations is the same as the Empire siding with Marienburg pirates over the Karaz Ankor, proving all the worst things the Dwarves already believe about the Umgi.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Yeah. Breaking the blockade, let's recall, involves this:
Destroying their navy and a good chunk of their infrastructure, then placing them under dwarf guns until the canals exist. This is, let's be clear, complete naval subjugation. It's an existential threat to Marienburg just as much as the outright attempt to annex them would be.
For this reason, I favor [ ] They can make up for the loss in trade. No, it's not fair to the Karaz Ankor, but it lets us avoid a potentially very serious war and serves to bind the Empire more tightly to the Karaz Ankor, both of which are things we like. Also, like... the Karaz Ankor's money isn't really doing much. It's just sitting in vaults, mostly. Monetary stimulus time; let's put that currency to work.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
The long-term benefits of this canal are so great that it's entirely worth it for Barak Varr to prop up the Empire's economy for a few years. It probably isn't that much more expensive than building the canal in the first place! Major waterway improvements like this are staggeringly expensive. The Panama Canal cost something like $10B in today's dollars. Barak Varr's canal, from the Black Water to the Aver Reach, is 1) being dug without the benefit of steam shovels 2) going through a mountain range 3) longer than the Panama Canal (judging by this map and this distance reference) 4) being actively raided by bandits and mercenaries. I'd expect it to cost the equivalent of tens or hundreds of billions of dollars. So, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a big pile of money set aside for dealing with exactly this kind of complication.
Plus, like, the other option is they deploy their entire navy and smash another nation-state's navy into the ground. As if that's going to cost anything less than a few hundred million dollars in operating costs.
And that's not even getting into K8P's triple infinite money. It has so much money right now that Belegar probably can't even spend it all. Extending a big fat loan to the Empire to stimulate it out of an impending depression would be approximately the best possible use of that money I can imagine.
Plus, like, the other option is they deploy their entire navy and smash another nation-state's navy into the ground. As if that's going to cost anything less than a few hundred million dollars in operating costs.
And that's not even getting into K8P's triple infinite money. It has so much money right now that Belegar probably can't even spend it all. Extending a big fat loan to the Empire to stimulate it out of an impending depression would be approximately the best possible use of that money I can imagine.
I suppose, but... even without it being written down, if anyone ever figured it out in the past, it should be institutional knowledge by now. It's sufficiently important that it should pervade the Empire's approach to the Karaz Ankor; junior ambassadors should absorb it from their superiors in the Empire's diplomatic apparatus simply by existing, the same way that wizards would learn that miscasts are Bad News even if they've never had or seen one themselves.
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lancelot
Completely worth it
At this point I'd say we should simply break Marienburg outright. The Elves aren't going to go to war with their allies the Empire over a trade pact that they have with Marienburg.
A Marienburg that has previously sponsored pirates that have attacked their home land, so they came around and completely fucked Marienburg up in response. The elves have all the money and the world so you can't buy them like mercs, and have no chance in hell of risking the lives of their warriors on a trade town they don't even have a defense pact with. Keep in mind their constantly at war with the Dark Elves.
Either break the embargo and take the years to bleed them dry before taking the city back, or get the Dawi to help us take the city now. Elves won't help and between the humans, dawi, and Dawi dreadnought(s) Marienburg doesn't have a fucking chance.
A Marienburg that has previously sponsored pirates that have attacked their home land, so they came around and completely fucked Marienburg up in response. The elves have all the money and the world so you can't buy them like mercs, and have no chance in hell of risking the lives of their warriors on a trade town they don't even have a defense pact with. Keep in mind their constantly at war with the Dark Elves.
Either break the embargo and take the years to bleed them dry before taking the city back, or get the Dawi to help us take the city now. Elves won't help and between the humans, dawi, and Dawi dreadnought(s) Marienburg doesn't have a fucking chance.
Ironically our knowledge of both has nothing to do with being Grey and very little to do with being a Wizard. We just have the right friends.
[] No, but they would fight beside you
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
Stopping the canals because Marienburg is greedy comes under the heading of 'No'. The only question is how to say no.
I very much like the idea of bringing Marienburn back into the Empire but I am also leery of putting Barak Var and Ulthuan of different sides of the same battlefield.
Don't suppose we could offer to go decapitate Marienburg's leadership personally?
...how on Mallus did you people write ten pages of discussion in two hours?!
Maybe not the part that he was a hostage that also happened to run an air force.