Huh, that sounds possible, good idea. Setting up Eonir as a trade proxy might work.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The Asur have the largest navy, but they also have the largest obligations for that navy to fulfill. I genuinely don't think they could take Barak Varr's ironclads with the force they could bring to bear, and I am certain they wouldn't be willing to do it even if they could.
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If we can trust everyone to be a rational actor you are completely correct, but we have no guarantee that everyone will be a rational actor. After all if everyone had been a rational actor there would have been no War of Vengeance in the first place.
Now the likelihood of a second War of Vengeance happening is very low in my estimation, but the cost if it does happen is utterly and completely ruinous. Which combined with a viable alternative option in terms of increasing trade makes me disinclined to take the risk.
You belive that the elves being ornery is enough for them to enter a suicide pact war with Karaz Ankor? Personally I have more respect for them.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Yeah, it's definitely the sort of thing that looks like de facto crushing their sovereignty. Without their navy, they're hosed. It's conquest in all but name.
Currently on board with
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
Because there's not like there's a persistent cadre of Asur that is deeply hopped up on anti-Dawi juice and repeatedly goes around and shaves dwarves for jollies. Oh wait there is.
And even if the Phoenix King could just kill noblemen/noblewomen (which I heavily doubt), the damage would still be done by the point Finubar takes action.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Sadly, the ambassadorial position rotates between elvish provinces as part of their politics.
Marienburg is obscenely wealthy. They can afford being cut off from trade a lot better than the Empire can. Unless you also mean cut them off from overland trade, at which point you're talking about a siege and that's called a war.
They're mostly self-sufficient, and what little trade they do engage in is with human merchants in Nordland and Middenland. They don't really have a stake in this.
- Location
- Leeds
Guys proposed write in.
[ ] Wait, how about we just try and keep mind wiping the council of ten so that they forget about it until its too late to apply sanctions?
[ ] Wait, how about we just try and keep mind wiping the council of ten so that they forget about it until its too late to apply sanctions?
Whether they can spare an CVBG or five depends mostly on Druchii front, and we have no idea how that's going. There could be a lull in their usual back and forth, and if so, they won't hesitate to sink major competitor's fleet with a vengeance.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
That wouldn't work.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Any comments on this, @BoneyM ?
Is this almost a meta vote, shaping the future fiction, or about 'making the truth', either of which would be presenting single options? As opposed to Mathilde with her expertise outlining the several possible options. More than one of those seem objectively possible.
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- Location
- Leeds
You can't know that until you try.
Maybe we just roll ten nat 100's in a row every time and break Boney.
Yes, which is why those deeply anti dwarf Asur have already started an apocalyptic war with Karaz Ankor with all the myriad of excuses they have had over the last 3000 years and we are currently living in the Chaos soaked ruins of that battle... Wait.
This feel to me like protagonist arrogance. Of course we will restart the war between these two age old superpower that have maintained their peace for millennia. We are after all the center of the world.
The War of the Beard was hideously stupid. It might not be likely, but it's possible.
- Location
- The internet
I mean, they're probably reliant on river/ocean trade to feed themselves. The land surrounding them is notoriously terrible.
- Location
- Greece
Well then, now that I know our feasible courses of action, analysis time.
[ ] The High King could make it so
This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.
Ha ha ha ha noooooooo. That would either kill Belegar of cause him to revolt. Nuuh, not a chance, nosireee, that is the worst option without an equal.
[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
Somewhat traitorous, but I do not care about that as much as I care about the fact the Empire is swarmed with problems that may become the dawi problems if the empire cracks. Not a wise choice, we need strong forces of order.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
A better compromise, maybe? Still leaves a sour taste but it may be the option that weakens the forces of order the least. Let's jot this down an option number 1.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
That would be the least bloody way to do it while stucking up to Marienburg, as well as the most dwarvish way. If Marienburg escalates, we can convince the Dawi to escalate without lies. Lets's jot that as option number 2.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
Lying to the dwarves? Hahahahaha noooooo.
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
It's hard to say what this would result in.
Significantly worse than "I do not know", gains us nothing but danger.
[ ] I don't know
Wash your hands of the matter.
Best way to answer if some flaw is found in option 1 and 2, let's jot it down as plan B.
So, as far as I am concerned the choice is between
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
or
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
I cannot, in truth, decide which of those are better, so unless someone sways me, I will be approval voting both. Should both of those have significant flaws, however, I will go with plan B, which is "I don't know".
[ ] The High King could make it so
This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.
Ha ha ha ha noooooooo. That would either kill Belegar of cause him to revolt. Nuuh, not a chance, nosireee, that is the worst option without an equal.
[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
Somewhat traitorous, but I do not care about that as much as I care about the fact the Empire is swarmed with problems that may become the dawi problems if the empire cracks. Not a wise choice, we need strong forces of order.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
A better compromise, maybe? Still leaves a sour taste but it may be the option that weakens the forces of order the least. Let's jot this down an option number 1.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
That would be the least bloody way to do it while stucking up to Marienburg, as well as the most dwarvish way. If Marienburg escalates, we can convince the Dawi to escalate without lies. Lets's jot that as option number 2.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
Lying to the dwarves? Hahahahaha noooooo.
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
It's hard to say what this would result in.
Significantly worse than "I do not know", gains us nothing but danger.
[ ] I don't know
Wash your hands of the matter.
Best way to answer if some flaw is found in option 1 and 2, let's jot it down as plan B.
So, as far as I am concerned the choice is between
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
or
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
I cannot, in truth, decide which of those are better, so unless someone sways me, I will be approval voting both. Should both of those have significant flaws, however, I will go with plan B, which is "I don't know".
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- Location
- Canada
We should talk about several possibilities... largely because the chancellor seems to want to do:
[ ] The High King could make it so
...and that's a bad idea. As mentioned, there has never been a civil war amongst the Dwarves... but if Thorgrim just arbitrarily shuts down a project that's so vital to the health and prosperity of multiple Holds, that may not remain true. It's that big an ask. That leads to:
[ ] For sufficient concessions
...and that's expensive, since making up for the loss of the foreseen profit of the canals would require a major expenditure. It's not impossible, but it'd be a huge investment, and one that could be more plausibly applied.
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
Regardless of what gets offered, "no canal" is a very hard sell. Karak Azul needs trade, and Barak Varr lives and breathes it, while Eight Peaks sits in the middle... not yet established enough to easily pass up such opportunities. That's why these other options are so expensive. So let's talk about what they can do to make the canals happen:
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
Perhaps true, but it'd be a disastrous war. Probably one best avoided.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the Dwarven naval power. They have the ships and the inclination to make and win a naval war over this. That's not much better than a land war, but the consequences would be better.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This is certainly true, and is my preferred option. In the long run, the best way to deal with Marienburg is probably to ignore them until they starve. They can afford to hire an army of mercenaries to defend them against a frontal attack for long enough to overcome the logistics of one of the Empire's attacks. They can't afford to hire an army of mercenaries sufficient to defeat the Empire in an offensive war. As merchants, trade is their lifeblood, and an embargo is a sword that cuts both ways. If Marienburg wants to wield that weapon, let them. They'll bleed themselves dead with it.
[ ] The High King could make it so
...and that's a bad idea. As mentioned, there has never been a civil war amongst the Dwarves... but if Thorgrim just arbitrarily shuts down a project that's so vital to the health and prosperity of multiple Holds, that may not remain true. It's that big an ask. That leads to:
[ ] For sufficient concessions
...and that's expensive, since making up for the loss of the foreseen profit of the canals would require a major expenditure. It's not impossible, but it'd be a huge investment, and one that could be more plausibly applied.
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
Regardless of what gets offered, "no canal" is a very hard sell. Karak Azul needs trade, and Barak Varr lives and breathes it, while Eight Peaks sits in the middle... not yet established enough to easily pass up such opportunities. That's why these other options are so expensive. So let's talk about what they can do to make the canals happen:
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
Perhaps true, but it'd be a disastrous war. Probably one best avoided.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the Dwarven naval power. They have the ships and the inclination to make and win a naval war over this. That's not much better than a land war, but the consequences would be better.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This is certainly true, and is my preferred option. In the long run, the best way to deal with Marienburg is probably to ignore them until they starve. They can afford to hire an army of mercenaries to defend them against a frontal attack for long enough to overcome the logistics of one of the Empire's attacks. They can't afford to hire an army of mercenaries sufficient to defeat the Empire in an offensive war. As merchants, trade is their lifeblood, and an embargo is a sword that cuts both ways. If Marienburg wants to wield that weapon, let them. They'll bleed themselves dead with it.
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Maybe we should write in, with our choice, that the Eonir could be more open to talks then he's expecting.
I'm going to vote for breaking the blockade, because I think that's the best option and that Finubar won't want to fight the dwarves, but we could add a sub-write in that Mathilde believes the Eonir could be convinced to open talks on contributing, for the right agreement.
I kind of feel like the Emperors Council aren't fully communicating with one another, as Dragomas and the Grand Theologist should both be able to tell him more about the Eonir in all this, except the Waystones seem to be a secret and the GT is probably screwing over the Ar-Ulric.
I'm going to vote for breaking the blockade, because I think that's the best option and that Finubar won't want to fight the dwarves, but we could add a sub-write in that Mathilde believes the Eonir could be convinced to open talks on contributing, for the right agreement.
I kind of feel like the Emperors Council aren't fully communicating with one another, as Dragomas and the Grand Theologist should both be able to tell him more about the Eonir in all this, except the Waystones seem to be a secret and the GT is probably screwing over the Ar-Ulric.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Asur would be facing both the Karaz Ankor (because Elves means it's not just Barak Varr, even discounting the trade benefits) and the Empire's navy.
There's no perfect solution, but I'm not willing to weaken the Empire or Karaz Ankor for them.
There's no perfect solution, but I'm not willing to weaken the Empire or Karaz Ankor for them.