- Location
- Earth
Just love this part. The guy has no idea we are involved in all of that
Isn't that channel the one the EIC is helping build?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Isn't that channel the one the EIC is helping build?
- Location
- Australia
@BoneyM the dwarves are insanely wealthy, moreso even than Marienburg. Could we get the Karaz Ankor to deny Marienburg mercenaries by hiring them first?
ShyPerson
Guardian of the dead’s final rest.
- Location
- Sweden
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I think this was meant to be Karak Eight Peaks.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Hmm. What are we voting on here? I mean, several of those answers seem true, as in things that could happen.
He's not explicitly asking the 'best' way. Will our answer lock in the possibilities so it is the only way?
Should this be like our plan proposals to Abel, where we give a list of options?
(I.e. a plan vote)?
Darrenb209
"Who are you, who do not know your history?"
- Location
- Scotland
Oh god, if this kicks off into a war it has a very real chance of starting off as Empire VS Marienburg and turning into Dwarves VS Elves round two.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The Elves aren't going to step in militarily for anything short of the Empire actually attacking Marienburg. For any of the other solutions, whatever response they have it isn't going to be a military one.
Have Barak Varr bring in their navy to shut down any blockade. The Elves won't support Marienburg taking actively hostile action like a blockade would be.
Have Barak Varr bring in their navy to shut down any blockade. The Elves won't support Marienburg taking actively hostile action like a blockade would be.
The only logical conclusion for this situation is to become a necromancer and sack Marienburg with an unrelated undead army.
But to be serious for a moment, I think that when Barak Varr breaks the blockade Marienburg will need to back off or start a real offensive war, which Ulthuan would not support.
But to be serious for a moment, I think that when Barak Varr breaks the blockade Marienburg will need to back off or start a real offensive war, which Ulthuan would not support.
Hm. Well, we know for a fact that Karak Kadrin got awfully close to declaring a Grudge over bandits/interference with their canal project. That pattern of behaviour is likely consistent, which means that stopping will either cause oathbreaking, a Grudge of some kind, or need serious moolah to be coughed up from somebody.
Internal dissent in the KA at this point will cause a schism, and that's not really something that could feasibly be repaired any time soon if at all.
Concessions and leaning on trade are workable politically - weakening the Empire rather than causing a Grudge or going to war at a bad time is a hard pill to swallow, but a temporary loss might be an acceptable solution to a tricky geopolitical situation.
Blockade breaking and fighting alongside are politically workable for the KA/Empire, but might end up causing a flashpoint with Ulthuan.
The flat no is a mystery box, but we probably shouldn't pick it because it's not really true - there are a number of ways to stop/slow the projects, but it's a matter of picking and choosing consequences.
Internal dissent in the KA at this point will cause a schism, and that's not really something that could feasibly be repaired any time soon if at all.
Concessions and leaning on trade are workable politically - weakening the Empire rather than causing a Grudge or going to war at a bad time is a hard pill to swallow, but a temporary loss might be an acceptable solution to a tricky geopolitical situation.
Blockade breaking and fighting alongside are politically workable for the KA/Empire, but might end up causing a flashpoint with Ulthuan.
The flat no is a mystery box, but we probably shouldn't pick it because it's not really true - there are a number of ways to stop/slow the projects, but it's a matter of picking and choosing consequences.
Do not forget that the Elves are not a completely united polity. There is a significant faction who are still capturing and shaving Dwarves to this day despite this being the explicit cause of one of the most devastating wars in their history.
All you need is one Dwarf hater in charge of an Elven ship near Mariburg to decide they don't want their "allies" being subject to Dwarven gunboat diplomacy (or worse sinking Marieburg ships) and you've potentially got War of the Beard II Electric Bogaloo.
Best thing to do is avoid any possibility of the optics letting this seem like a military Elves vs Dwarves situation. We don't want to be in a position where one rogue/hothead (on either side) can turn this into Elf vs Dwarf war.
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Travler66
Let her name echo in song!
- Location
- Beyond
War with Marienburg is not an option, my biggest worry is if we do that, the Forces of Destruction will easily find a way to profit from the suffering it will bring. Not to mention the damaged relations between the Empire, Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor.
This option is the best one in the long run.
- Location
- The internet
Honestly, the most elegant solution would be to somehow get the Eonir to start making disproving noises in Marianburg's direction. That would dynamite Ulthan's strategic calculus, and they'd probably pull back to reassess.
- Location
- Australia
We're voting on our answer to the question, "Can the dwarves be dissuaded from finishing the canal." The answer in truth is likely some variation of "No." Dwarves are extremely stubborn and the insistent whining of petulant manlings isn't something that can really dissuade them from a course of action. They'll at least get their part of the canal done.
I don't believe the elves maintain a fleet stationed there, so if there is actually one present then that says the backing is a lot more solid then the Chancellor made it sound. So there probably isn't one or he'd be more confident about their stance.
If they don't submit then it's a shooting war. Brinkmanship has already begun though. So there's not much to do but play the odds.
I do not want to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor. I really don't. Now, amusingly it could be the case that Belegar probably could get Thorgrim to intervene, but... well first of all, the canals are good for Karak Eight Peaks too. And very good for Barak Varr, who is a nearby and thus closeby trading partner of K8P. (... And I guess good for Karak Kadrin and whatever Imperial province is there, because they're building -- or built, a while back -- canals there too.) Secondly, it'd be... well, I don't want to push Thorgrim into doing this.
(And, ultimately, this would be getting done because Marienburg would have gotten predictably get pissy... I don't want Marienburg to dictate the Empire's and Karaz Ankor's politics to that degree.
To be honest, I don't want to stop the canals! Everybody was fired up to do this. If the Dwarfs then get asked by the Empire to not do this, they're going to be annoyed. Also, if the canals get built, then both the Karaz Ankor and the Empire benefit greatly; so I don't want to not make the canals.
Which thus leads us toooo...
My currently favored option! How long would it take for the canals to complete anyway? A few more turns or years, right? We could take it until then.
Get the Karaz Ankor to trade more. Get it to use its wealth. Hell, Belegar has unbelievable amounts of wealth -- he can throw that in behind both the Karaz Ankor and the Empire. The wealth would get reshuffled from hold to hold, and make its way to the Empire.
This way we don't have to worry about causing a war. We don't have to worry about the discontent and knockon-effects that would come from getting Thorgrim to annoy everybody who was looking forward to the canals by getting them to stop.
I think either this one, or the "Barak Varr could help break the blockade" one.
Please please please do not cause a war, for the love of god. Please. Don't risk it, either.
Maybe the "ask them to help break any blockade" might be reasonable. I mean, if Marienburg tries to block off the Empire, then... yeah. Would not be unreasonable for the Dwarfs, Barak Varr, to respond.
But the second one, where "Maybe spin it as Elven sabotage"? I do not like the sound of that option. It risks drawing Ulthuan in to politics. It risks enflaming Dwarf passions, and what if they start grumbling about elves and such, and then something starts happening years down the line because Dwarf-Elf relations just got an infusion of tension... No.
Uh... I dunno. Sounds ominous.
- Location
- Germany
Breaking the blockades seems like the most sensible option.
The Elves are unlikely to intervene for something like that and no river-ship the Empire or Marienburg has could stand up to Barrack Varr's marine.
They'd need their big fleets for that, and those are not made for rivers, as their main naval foes are all coming over the open sea.
The Elves are unlikely to intervene for something like that and no river-ship the Empire or Marienburg has could stand up to Barrack Varr's marine.
They'd need their big fleets for that, and those are not made for rivers, as their main naval foes are all coming over the open sea.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Damn it.
Ok, I m strongly against letting Marienburg block the canals. Not just because it would show that such tactics work and because of massive economical loss long trm, but also because it would maintain their monopoly and allow them to do this again later on.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
-The peaceful route. Can both the dwarfs and man afford to be weakened at this time though? I don't know.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
-Don't fuck with dwarven navy, ironclads are terrifying to wooden ships. This would work I think, and I doubt that the elves would be willing to toss up with dwarves over this.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
-I don't like this. While it could indeed be spun this way, it is not the truth and manipulating our allies like that... Also with the canals Marienburg would lose much of its wealth over time and thus be far easier to reclaim later I think.
Ok, I m strongly against letting Marienburg block the canals. Not just because it would show that such tactics work and because of massive economical loss long trm, but also because it would maintain their monopoly and allow them to do this again later on.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
-The peaceful route. Can both the dwarfs and man afford to be weakened at this time though? I don't know.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
-Don't fuck with dwarven navy, ironclads are terrifying to wooden ships. This would work I think, and I doubt that the elves would be willing to toss up with dwarves over this.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
-I don't like this. While it could indeed be spun this way, it is not the truth and manipulating our allies like that... Also with the canals Marienburg would lose much of its wealth over time and thus be far easier to reclaim later I think.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Quick comment before I go do other stuff, but it's good to keep in mind that this project is the pet of... several of our friends, including Heidi whose goal for a while has been reclaiming Marienburg. With at least a couple of Holds willing and able to help out, chances are they would crumple pretty easily.
Of course, elves are an issue, but if we really wanted we could probably go do the elf trip and earn enough favor to tempt them to stay out of things. Or maybe not, but it's an idea.
Of course, elves are an issue, but if we really wanted we could probably go do the elf trip and earn enough favor to tempt them to stay out of things. Or maybe not, but it's an idea.
I think the fears of War of Vengeance part Two are a bit exaggerated. No one on either side wants that, literally no one. They know it would be suicide. We could see elven raids, more dwarfs being hunted to make beard cloaks, more elves killed on the high seas by ironclads but neither state can afford a full blown war t and they know it. They have known it before Sigmar's Empire was a twinkle in a barbarian's eye.
Dwarves are not what you'd call swift, and there's too many unknowns at this point to give a firm date. If everything goes exactly according to plan and nothing unexpected crops up, perhaps five years.
That's the sort of gambit that could unfold if it gets to the point of mercenaries being hired and armies being on the march.
The map doesn't go down that far, and Kadrin's canals are part of what he's asking about, so he gestured there.
ConfusedCanuck
Where did it all go wrong?
- Location
- Neverland
I'm very much for asking for help from Barak Varr and breaking a naval blockade.
- Location
- Australia
It's entirely the truth. You think the dwarves are going to accept Marienburg's demands to stop their project? Furthermore, if the elves are marching in defence of Marienburg then they are complicit in its transgressions against the dawi, and the Karaz Ankor would indeed respond to that.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I expect that we could personally have a greater infulence on Marienburg policy if we go and vist. Which is even less likely to cause any elf reaction.