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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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... Woo boy. Human on human war looming, and we have the chance to drag dwarves into it when they absolutely don't have the numbers to be throwing away on this mannish nonsense.

Edit: Guess we could use our Transcendent Boon to get Belegar moving. A library or whatever is fun, but tying K8P into the heart of the Empire (and probably grabbing another Great Deed) might be worth it.
 
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So I don't think I have a lot to say on the vote here, I'm not really sure how to play this, but I want to draw attention to this:
BoneyM said:
So that leaves two provinces ready for war." He pauses, frowning. "Three. Forgot Hochland.
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And I had to laugh, because this is Boney finishing a brick joke that dates back literally to the first post of the entire quest.
BoneyM said:
[ ] HOCHLAND

Oh, yeah. There's also Hochland.

That's Hochland for you - always the afterthought.
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Well-played.
 
@BoneyM To our current knowledge how long will it take the canals to finish?

I'm not one for the current status quo, but a war would be really bad.
 
BoneyM said:
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
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If there's a dreadnought parked outside Marienburg, I don't think Ulthuan is particularly likely to potentially spark another great war just to prop up their client states' margins, so this would likely result in the city folding.
 
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My gut feeling is that this is Marieuburg throwing around the Elven name without actually having anything to back it up. Yes the Elven ambassador has been equivocating but I doubt they'd support an actual offensive war by Marieburg.

I suspect that Marieuburg is hoping that either
a) the Empire backs off; or
b) the Empire oversteps and tries another "reclaim Marieburg", which they likely could get defensive support from the Elves for.

I'm reluctant to urge him to request Dwarven fighting aid (no one wants to reignite the war of the Beard, especially if it might endanger the Waystone project). Dwarf Ships engaging Mariburg ships, even to break a blockade seems like something the kind of elves who still hunt down and shave dwarves might be able to use to support them taking their own action even if it might not be official policy.

I'm leaning towards:

[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade

It's painful, but it is also less likely to result in a war whilst also weakening Mariburg in the long term and hopefully not resulting in Grudges everywhere.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
What about the Chaos Dwarves or doesn't the Empire know about them?
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He means the Empire's records. The Chaos Dwarves split off 2500 years before the tribes that would one day become the Empire even arrived in the Old World.

Zero Gravitas said:
Does the Chamberlain know about the Empire part of the Waystone thing that Algard deduced - aka that Ulthuan syphons the magic in the Waystones?...

Because this seems like potentially relevant info...
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Perhaps. Dragomas would, and they both serve on the Council of State.
 
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade

If Marienburg are stupid enough to embargo the Empire then they would beggar their own people, and in the future we could completely circumvent their trade route and turn them into paupers.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
If there's a dreadnought parked outside Marienburg, I don't think Ulthuan is particularly likely to potentially spark another great war just to prop up their client states' margins, so this would likely result in the city folding.
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If there's an elven fleet parked near Marienburg, would the dwarves fire the first shot?


EVA-Saiyajin said:
Anyone know anything about this past conflict with Marienburg?
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Marienburg is an ex-imperial state, who declared their independence some time ago.

The final break with the Empire came at the end of the reign of Emperor Dieter IV, last of the Unfahigers, who imposed heavy taxes on beer and sausages to prosecute his invasion of the Border Princedoms. In the chaos caused by revolts against the taxes and Dieter's deposition in favour of Grand Prince Wilhelm of the Reikland, the Directorate seized the moment and had the Stadsraad declare Westerland's independence.[1e]

The newly made Emperor Wilhelm III did not take the news quietly. He sent three expeditions against Marienburg. All three were defeated, and the last resulted in the surrender of the Imperial Army at the so-called Battle of the Grootscher Marsh. This also revealed the ties between the Directorate and the Sea Elves, whose wizards were decisive in the final campaign. With threats on all sides, Wilhelm acceded to the inevitable and recognised the independence of what was now proudly calling itself the 'Wasteland'. With the treaty of 20 Kaldezeit 2429, Marienburg was free to chart its course in the world.[1e]
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Possibly reenacting the War of the Beard is a step I don't think we want to take. That's global in scope and entirely unpredictable in consequeneces. Everyone, literally everyone, can lose.
 
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Doomed Wombat said:
mmm...could we sanction them back?

Cut all ties to Marianberg and if they attack us then hopefully the elves won't get involved.

Last time they did so it was because the Empire was the aggressors, but this time Marianberg would be and it'd be cause they were pissed at us for our own internal trade policy...

And honestly **** em.
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The sanctions would probably take the form of shutting down trade anyway, The problem is that the Empire apparently can't do without that trade for the next few years, so this wouldn't solve the issue.

King Arthur said:
Me, Ericwinter, and Aranfan have all expressed interest in writing a paper telling people how to survive being hunted by a Wisdom's Asp and how to trap a Wisdom's Asp.
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If we're going to spend an action on it anyway, I'd much prefer to try designing a better trap that's more likely to result in AV and sending that to the Colleges, than just write a paper that will already be covered by other, future AV writings.
 
I do not think we should back down given how the last round went, Marienburg holding far to much control over the empire's economy, and the potential trade boom from making this work. So the question is how do we handle it.

Both fighting and gritting our teeth and bearing it are likely to weaken both the empire and the Karak Ankor, but my suspicion is that fighting is a high risk high reward option. With the reward being the return of Marienburg and the risk being War of Vengeance round two if both elven and dwarf forces start fighting each other and cooler heads do not prevail.

The worst case is highly unlikely, but if we go to war with Dwarven support it is an option and the cost is so catastrophic I cannot justify it to myself.

Making up for it with trade would probably be somewhere between the best case and worst case scenario of the war. Given the stakes and that most of the existential threats to the empire and Dawi seem under control, I am inclined to hedge our bets take the short term costs until the canal is complete, and then laugh at Marienburg losing its monopoly.

[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
 
Tealg said:
As much as I hate to engage in fantasy saber-rattling these are the only two options that don't put either the empire or Karaz Ankor at a distinct disadvantage.

Cutting into Marienburg's profits is an objectively good thing for everyone who isn't Marienburg, but a hit to eastern trade won't destroy them. If they knew what was good for them they'd make a fuss just short of war then lean into their monopoly on Ulthuan imports to recover losses. At least that's my read.

Obviously I much prefer the "break the blockade" option but ultimately the difference between it and outright "alliance against Marienburg and Ulthuan" is so subtle I'm afraid some electors and kings will miss it.
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Worth noting, going to war will weaken everyone involved, both because armies are now tied up fighting each other, and because they're spending military strength and weakening themselves on the battle.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
If there's a dreadnought parked outside Marienburg, I don't think Ulthuan is to likely to potentially spark another great war just too prop up their client states margins, so this would likely result in the city folding.
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The problem with raising the stakes is that you have to be prepared for what will happen if the other person doesn't submit.

If we propose this I suggest that we make influencing Marieuburg politics our next project.
 
The problem with weakening the Empire is that it means the Empire has even less slack if a new problem kicks up or if one of the existing problems escalated further.

Breaking the blockade is mostly committing Dwarf assets from a Hold that's actually doing well for itself and doesn't have a lot of military commitments in Barak Varr. And War commits Barak Varr and presumably Zhufbar (which is expanding its Thunderers and doing well for itself with less Zagunaz threat every day).

The Empire is stretched thin, not all of the Karak Ankor seems to be stretched thin at this exact moment.
 
BoneyM said:
"If there's anything I've learned in my years, it's that cunning plans fall apart. Just focus on positioning yourself well, and whatever happens you can be in the right spot to profit from it. Maybe I'll just live in comfort for the rest of my days." She pats the swell of her belly. "Maybe I'll raise our likely future ruler to think kindly of our mutual friend. Maybe the Marienburgers will give us an excuse and we'll bring them back into the fold, and as part of peace negotiations we'll give explicit allowance to 'Ranald the Dealer' and start putting up proper Temples everywhere. Who knows what the future will bring?"
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This was part of Heidi and Ranalds plot remember, and this is Mathilde chance to further it. We've positioned ourself well, the pieces are in motion. I say we go for the blockade to start with and tell Belegar what's up, maybe advise him to try and make nice with the Eonir to solidify our position.
 
TLDR we absolutely cannot turn this into a war.

Any option is preferable to a war, never mind one that brings the dwarves into it.

Marienburg is acting out, they're scared for their bottom line cause the canals mean they won't have all the money any more...but no matter how rich they are, they can't fight the empire directly.

Deathbybunnies said:
The sanctions would probably take the form of shutting down trade anyway, The problem is that the Empire apparently can't do without that trade for the next few years, so this wouldn't solve the issue.
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Yeah, realised that. Still of the opinion that enduring it is a better option than allowing Marienburg to dictate the fate of the empire and potentially large chunks of the Karaz Ankor because le gasp they might loose some money!
 
Not sure about the rest of the options, but having Thorgrim shut down the projects would be a terrible move. There are already large rifts in the dwarves that are kept under wraps, and this would piss off both Barak Var and eight peaks, who both benefit immensely from the canal. And if thorgrim is seen arbitrarily shutting this down, then it could force the Thorgrim/Belegar rivalry even deeper, and potentially even out into the open. Even worse it could result in a power bloc of Barak Var and Eight Peeks forming and actively working against the High King. And that would be a disaster.
 
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