One of the big reasons I'd be scared of doing the Beard heist is that, well, we are coming close to the era where the Elves start earnestly attempting some decent diplomacy talks with the Dawi, it does very well, and canonically the only the only thing that screwed it up was one of them wacky Sylvanian Vampire boys so we might have already fixed that.
Destroying the Beard cloak might cause a flare up of tension on the Elven side that might make them unwilling to make the attempt. Finubar basically only got away with it because the Elves weren't really feeling the Dawi hate too strongly, any riling up of the "F the Dawi" crowd might make it politically unfeasible for him to try it.
I'm not against stealing or destroying it, I'm just nervous.
I was writing up a big 'old joke post about the idea of taking the phoenix crown and the cloak of beards, and smooshing them together to make the evilest artefact since the Nemesis Crown, and it got me wondering.
Would that actually work? Not for us, obviously, but if Nagash or someone got hold of the two of them, is it a thing in the setting that he could use their symbolic and historical weight to make a (Doom Crown of Pride (but also Doom)) from them?
Well that's not ominous in the slightest. I'm actually vaguely interested now. Not enough to actually do it, mind, just that it might be amusing.
Huh, thought for you crazy people actually supporting this, but we do have that trait which makes infiltration basically a given as long as they're not actively looking for magic, and given dwarves don't have magic, any protection on the Cloak of Beards might be missing that. Again, I don't think it's actually worth the cost of succeeding, even assuming we could, but it's a thing.
Ulthuan knows about the grey wizard Loremaster of Karak Eight Peaks, so we'd need to deflect attention from ourselves specifically. Getting to it and then smuggling it out is easy enough with shadow magic; the real difficulty is establishing a cover story for why it couldn't possibly be us.
One of the big reasons I'd be scared of doing the Beard heist is that, well, we are coming close to the era where the Elves start earnestly attempting some decent diplomacy talks with the Dawi, it does very well, and canonically the only the only thing that screwed it up was one of them wacky Sylvanian Vampire boys so we might have already fixed that.
Destroying the Beard cloak might cause a flare up of tension on the Elven side that might make them unwilling to make the attempt. Finubar basically only got away with it because the Elves weren't really feeling the Dawi hate too strongly, any riling up of the "F the Dawi" crowd might make it politically unfeasible for him to try it.
I'm not against stealing or destroying it, I'm just nervous.
On the other hand, removing such a powerful anti-dwarf symbol—in the unlikely scenario we got away with it—might make it even easier to do diplomacy.
Wait, why am I arguing this still? Curse my constant desire to sufficiently analyze both sides of an argument!
I was writing up a big 'old joke post about the idea of taking the phoenix crown and the cloak of beards, and smooshing them together to make the evilest artefact since the Nemesis Crown, and it got me wondering.
Would that actually work? Not for us, obviously, but if Nagash or someone got hold of the two of them, is it a thing in the setting that he could use their symbolic and historical weight to make a (Doom Crown of Pride (but also Doom)) from them?
The pheonix crown is not what you are thinking of. The pheonix crown is the prize of the Dawi, not their anti-elf artifact. Their anti-elf artifact is The Silver Horn of Vengence.
I was writing up a big 'old joke post about the idea of taking the phoenix crown and the cloak of beards, and smooshing them together to make the evilest artefact since the Nemesis Crown, and it got me wondering.
Would that actually work? Not for us, obviously, but if Nagash or someone got hold of the two of them, is it a thing in the setting that he could use their symbolic and historical weight to make a (Doom Crown of Pride (but also Doom)) from them?
That depends on the answers to three other questions.
First, are we talking about Games Workshop "canon"?
Second, is Chaos attacking again?
Third, would your suggestion result in the Empire being left open to Chaos and whatever Villain Sue leads it this time around?
If the answer to each of these questions is "Yes", then any suggestion you have will also be faced with "Yes". If the answer to any of these questions is "No", then there exists a chance for your suggestion to be answered the same.
@BoneyM, I have a question regarding the Deceiver. Say we travel to Ulthuan to buy some books and steal the Cloak of Beards. If an elf there asks us "Why are you in Ulthuan?" and we reply "To buy some books," would the elf believe thereafter we were only in Ulthuan to buy books and not steal the Cloak of Beards even after word breaks out that it was stolen? It's a lie of omission but I'm not sure if that counts as a lie regarding the Deceiver.
I was writing up a big 'old joke post about the idea of taking the phoenix crown and the cloak of beards, and smooshing them together to make the evilest artefact since the Nemesis Crown, and it got me wondering.
Would that actually work? Not for us, obviously, but if Nagash or someone got hold of the two of them, is it a thing in the setting that he could use their symbolic and historical weight to make a (Doom Crown of Pride (but also Doom)) from them?
I think we only need three people stating they want to do the plan to add it to the Multi-Action Plan informational threadmark, so, uh, anyone else interested in writing a paper telling people how to survive being hunted by and how to trap a Wisdom's Asp? Will definitley save a few lives.
On the other hand, removing such a powerful anti-dwarf symbol—in the unlikely scenario we got away with it—might make it even easier to do diplomacy.
Wait, why am I arguing this still? Curse my constant desire to sufficiently analyze both sides of an argument!
It's a gamble either way, it could help, it could hurt, but considering diplomacy would have went well without us robbing it I' more worried about the robbery messing things up then I am hopeful about it improving the odds.
Ulthuan knows about the grey wizard Loremaster of Karak Eight Peaks, so we'd need to deflect attention from ourselves specifically. Getting to it and then smuggling it out is easy enough with shadow magic; the real difficulty is establishing a cover story for why it couldn't possibly be us.
Merchants are allowed in Ulthuan so there is one possibility.
Don't let them know we are coming to Ulthuan. Use magic to disguise ourselves as just a regular person, do the robbery disguised as an Elf, and leave, with no one aware that Mathilde was even in Ulthuan at the time.
I am worried however that, you know, they'll just see through our disguise and/or sense that we are a wizard cause, you know, Elves.
Don't worry I for one know who he is perfectly well, he is a high level adviser in a quest called Divided Loyalties. I don't think his exalted position makes him immune to the basic premise of the quest anymore than Empress Heidi is just a sweet patriotic noble lady who just happened to fall into the Emperor's lap.
While we are on the subject of 'the Grey College vetted this guy so he must be on the level' it's worth nothing there is a priestess of Ranald whispering in the ear of the future emperor completely unknown to them and there is a Mathilde passing off Liber Mortis insights as personal experience. The grey college is not omniscient.
@BoneyM, I have a question regarding the Deceiver. Say we travel to Ulthuan to buy some books and steal the Cloak of Beards. If an elf there asks us "Why are you in Ulthuan?" and we reply "To buy some books," would the elf believe thereafter we were only in Ulthuan to buy books and not steal the Cloak of Beards even after word breaks out that it was stolen? It's a lie of omission but I'm not sure if that counts as a lie regarding the Deceiver.
Night Prowler would fix that, actually, and I don't think they could tell we're a human wizard just by looking at us. Not unless they've actually trained their windsight, at least. They would just think a student of the Tower of Hoeth or something decided to walk around under illusion and not pay any more attention.
I think we only need three people stating they want to do the plan to add it to the Multi-Action Plan informational threadmark, so, uh, anyone else interested in writing a paper telling people how to survive being hunted by and how to trap a Wisdom's Asp? Will definitley save a few lives.
What if we don't steal the Cloak of Beards ourselves? Ranald has some rather excellent thieves worshipping him. We could ask them to go nick it for us while we're away not doing anything suspicious-like, then we won't get in trouble for it. Less glory in it for us, but more glory in it for Ranald in the eyes of the dwarves.
So to add these fellows in:
-Celestial Order - "The stars are right, let us take to the sky and perform a Great Work while the Storm lasts. Nobody can interfere with us here."
-Amber Order - "We can fly bitches."
[X] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor
[X] The Halflings are renowned chefs, and several restaurants have opened clustered around the base of Karag Nar. Share a meal with her.
[X] There's a festival to Grungni coming up, and Johann has taken to observing the Holy Days of the Ancestor-God. Join him in this.
The nervous Baronet leads you through the bureaucratic sprawl and then out the other side again into the more sumptuous portions of the palace, finally leading you to a room you recognize by reputation - the room that houses the Great Chart. In it, most of the floor is inlaid with various materials making up a massive scale model of the Empire, with rivers of pearl, lakes of silver, and forests of ebony, with ivory buttons representing individual cities. The man you are here to meet is sitting on a stool, staring thoughtfully down at the flowing rivers of the southern Empire, and he turns to meet you as you enter and the Baronet flees.
Graf Otto von Bitternach is a serious-faced and prematurely balding man with a very neat beard, and has risen to the Council of State due to possessing the rare gift of somehow managing to reach accords with Dwarves and Elves, Royarch and Tzar, and every variety of despot and demagogue known to the southern realms. "Magister Weber," he says, inclining his head toward you. "An honour."
"Chamberlain von Bitternach," you reply, bowing. "The honour is mine."
"When I heard you were gracing the Palace, I could not miss the opportunity to draw on your knowledge." He speaks with the practiced tones of a trained orator, and from his reputation, you've no doubt his words are chosen carefully.
"How can I assist the Council of State?"
"I have at my disposal a dozen experts on the Karaz Ankor, but all draw what they know from the same teachings, and none can give me a satisfactory answer. You have lived amongst them, and serve the King of one of the greatest of the Old Holds." He gestures at the map, towards where Karak Kadrin is symbolized in steel. "My envoys all tell me that High King Thorgrim cares little for trade, and my own personal meetings with him reinforce that. And yet everywhere I look there are channels and locks being constructed, and the trade companies of the East and South maneuver to purchase boats and docks, and Barak Varr is fundamentally restructuring their navy for construction. What conclusion am I to draw from this?"
Ah. "You described Karak Eight Peaks as an Old Hold. Is that what your experts tell you?"
"Some believe they may be strongly influenced by the Young Holds, but King Belegar was raised in Karaz-a-Karak and their closest ally is Karak Azul."
You take a moment to consider how to put this. "When I first started living with the Dwarves, I was struck by the cultural divide between the Young Holds and the Old Holds. It's an easy impression to reach, and one that few Dwarves will discourage. But the truth is..." You pause, trying to find the best way to tell him what he needs to know without speaking ill of those you live amongst. "I know a radical engineer who once told me that the only Old Hold is Karaz-a-Karak, and the more I see of the Karaz Ankor, the more truth I find in his words. Set aside Karak Azul, which has been isolated for generations. Karak Kadrin is pragmatic, Zhufbar is progressive - at least by Dwarf standards - and Barak Varr is cosmopolitan. And to assuage the guilt they feel for veering from the path of their ancestors, they speak a great deal of their admiration for the Old Ways, and allow themselves to be labelled an Old Hold, and allow Karaz-a-Karak a certain level of cultural primacy."
He considers your words. "So you're saying they're no different to..." He waves a hand vaguely at the Empire, with its borders picked out in rosewood. "There's never been a recorded Civil War amongst the Dwarves," he says dubiously.
"Not quite. They don't think like we do. A human is very good at convincing himself that he's in the right. A Dwarf will obsessively dwell on them being in the wrong. I suspect they find it literally impossible not to. So an Elector that is upset at the Emperor will convince himself why it's okay for him to divide Sigmar's Empire, but a Dwarven King upset at the High King will brood endlessly on how they are failing Grungni's Karaz Ankor. So instead of rebellion, you have a growing silence, until the King succumbs to despair and relations are normalized with the heir's ascension." You think of Belegar and suppress a wince. "So Karaz-a-Karak is able to project an image of unity because those that disagree are silenced by the shame of failing their Ancestors."
"And any Dwarf I ask about the matter will clam up instead of acknowledging the fiction. How independent are they, truly?"
"They have the same values and the same enemies, but differ in how they go about things. So while Karaz-a-Karak cares nothing for trade because it is astonishingly wealthy, mostly self-sufficient, and relatively isolated, the other 'Old' Holds care very much. Barak Varr is a trade port, Karak Kadrin taxes Peak Pass and trades with Ostermark, and Zhufbar relies on trade for the components of gunpowder."
"That explains why nobody in Karaz-a-Karak had much to say on the topic of canals, even when so many Dwarves and resources are being applied to them." He sighs. "Could they be convinced to stop?"
You blink in surprise. "Stop? But this would be hugely to the Empire's advantage. Shortening trade with the Southern realms would-"
"Yes, everyone loves to cut out the middleman," he interrupts you, "but then are so often taken by surprise at the middleman cutting back."
You turn your eyes to Marienburg, still depicted here as an Imperial province. "Ah."
"They're threatening an embargo, and these canals won't be functional soon enough to stop it from biting. And the Chancellor says that would do unacceptable things to our budget. So we'd have no choice but to try to force the issue. The Battle of Grootscher Marsh was a disaster for the Empire, and though some are keen for a rematch, the timing is terrible. Stirland is locked in combat with Vampires, Wissenland took heavy losses against..." he hesitates, eyeing you and frowning.
"Skaven," you supply.
"Oh, good. Against Skaven. And the trouble in the north over..." He hesitates again.
"The Eonir."
"Right, Grey Wizard. And Ostland's still nervous about spillover from Kislev and their Ogre problems, and we're not fully sure we've stamped down the latest from Drachenfels here in the Reikland. So that leaves two provinces ready for war." He pauses, frowning. "Three. Forgot Hochland. Against every mercenary the bloated coffers of Marienburg can lure, and if history charts the same course as last time..."
"Ulthuan," you say grimly.
"They've done quite well out of their partnership with Marienburg, and they're even less willing to give a straight answer than usual on the matter. So I put it to you - can the Dwarves be convinced to stop building the canal between the Aver and the Black Waters?"
Under the piercing gaze of the Chamberlain of the Seal, you consider your answer carefully.
[ ] The High King could make it so This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.
[ ] For sufficient concessions This would weaken the Empire.
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
To clarify: this would involve the Karaz Ankor paying the Empire for what they lose in trade income, as well as arranging alternate routes for crucial goods.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
To clarify: this would involve destroying Marienburg's navy and any chains, booms, and gates capable of blocking the river.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded It's hard to say what this would result in.
[ ] I don't know Wash your hands of the matter.
- There will be a two hour moratorium.
- Most of the Empire's rivers flow to the Reik and meet the sea at Marienburg. By refusing to allow foreign vessels to pass, they effectively blockade the Empire without having to project power outside their territory.
