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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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We have a complex knot of loyalty and duty to the Empire.
We also have loyalty and duty to King Belegar.

In our current situation, I do think we need to be mindful of our Imperial loyalties. Passing on geopolitical information is what is expected of us here- I.e. the option to answer questions not directly pertaining to Dawi secrets. Further, absent directed questioning or a pressing need to know, simply avoiding mentioning things we'd rather not cover- like the ancient coin vault- should give us some leeway.

We do need to accept there could be consequences- to our position of trust with Belegar, or reputation amongst Dawi. These are the realities, and we'll have to deal with them.
I also think the consequences of stonewalling, and thus announcing our loyalty is now primarily to the Karaz Ankor- that a College Wizard can be so suborned- would be more grave, and potentially not just for us,

But, hey! On the bright side, some of the thread was wondering how our stay in K8P might eventually come to an end. ;)
Alectai said:
That's the kind of shit you do in response to some rookie playing silly buggers when you made a reasonable request.
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Also, this. As I said, we'll be testing the Chancellor, too, against our standards. What does he do with what he tell him?
 
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Rafin said:
I understood that Scrolls of Binding are species specific, to the point of needing an Ice Dragon Scroll exactly.

If we are against enslaving sentients (which we should be) then using one this way is not a waste. If we aren't against it then we would just keep him or export him to the Empire. The only way it would be a waste is if we were okay with the Empire enslaving other Ice Dragons, but have qualms against enslaving this one in particular or against us in particular doing the enslaving.

If the Emperor asks us to? Hah, no. Maybe Lord Magisters have the right to fight a direct order from the Emperor on the grounds of religion or legal precedence, if they are backed up by both their College and the head of their church. You know, through the privilege of nobility. But on the other hand maybe even they can't because of those oaths they swore.

@BoneyM Most Colleges don't make you renounce your family or inheritance when you join, right? If somehow a wizard were to become EC, how would that jive with his explicit oaths and the Articles of Magic?
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You are technically disinherited as part of the process of becoming a Wizard. Most Colleges don't extend that to cutting you off completely, but few families care to stay in contact with someone who turned out to have Magic. Though it's not forbidden.
 
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BoneyM said:
This almost certainly results in a very cranky Emperor entering the room five minutes later and telling you to stop playing silly buggers and answer the damn question. This guy is to external diplomacy as Dragomas is to Wizards.
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I feel like people don't know what a Chamberlain of the Seal is. (to be far, there isn't a modern equivalent.)

he is not a 'head diplomat' he is the guy who has the imperial seal and so can make deals with foreign powers unilaterally.

and they will be binding.

he is arguably the most trusted man in the empire, and the 3nd most powerful man in the imperial palace (if you consider the colleges and cults a separate power-blocks) in the grand scheme of things we are not in a position to question his skills or authority to his face. (its like a middle manager back talking one of the executives during a random performance check.)
 
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Andres110 said:
Obeying the Emperor is the second of the articles. It's separate from the first, meaning the laws and ideals of the Empire and the Emperor's will are not entirely the same thing.
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The Time of Three Emperors was still very recent when the Articles were written. A lot of it seems to be written with the intention of avoiding Wizards getting involved if it happened again.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I feel like people don't know what a Chamberlain of the Seal is. (to be far, there isn't a modern equivalent.)

he is not a 'head diplomat' he is the guy who has the imperial seal and so can make deals with foreign powers unilaterally.

and they will be binding.

he is arguably the most trusted man in the empire, and the 3nd most powerful man in the imperial palace (if you consider the colleges and cults a separate power-block) in the grand scheme of things we are not in a position to question his skills or authority to his face. (its like a middle manager back talking one of the executives during a random performance check.)
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The point is that you don't fucking sass this man. He knows how the game is played or he wouldn't be carrying that Seal. We give him some useful geopolitical intelligence, and our duties are discharged. We simply don't bring up the topics that are Secret, and he doesn't press us for anything more. This is how the game of diplomacy is played. A great deal of polite fictions that let people be useful without needing to put them in positions where they choose between one binding oath or another unless you have reason to believe that you need that agent to violate that oath.

And if that's the position you're in? You have much greater concerns.
 
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Ericwinter said:
He's also probably perfectly aware of what Mathilde means to the Dawi and how she, specifically, would be a very bad person to put in such a position, since at least one Karak will go to war for her.
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I mean, I could be misinterpreting some of the back-and-forth, but it sounds like if this guy gets a hint of one of the big secrets we have from us slipping up, he won't hesitate to pull all the rank imaginable to drag it out of us, with our only real defence against him is denying we know anything.

Like, if he mentions having information about a call for aid from K8P to KAK (somehow), and asks us what we know, we better beat his perceptiveness with our poker face, or things will get very sticky.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
I feel like people don't know what a Chamberlain of the Seal is. (to be far, there isn't a modern equivalent.)

he is not a 'head diplomat' he is the guy who has the imperial seal and so can make deals with foreign powers unilaterally.

and they will be binding.

he is arguably the most trusted man in the empire, and the 3nd most powerful man in the imperial palace (if you consider the colleges and cults a separate power-block) in the grand scheme of things we are not in a position to question his skills or authority to his face. (its like a middle manager back talking one of the executives during a random performance check.)
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Don't worry I for one know who he is perfectly well, he is a high level adviser in a quest called Divided Loyalties. I don't think his exalted position makes him immune to the basic premise of the quest anymore than Empress Heidi is just a sweet patriotic noble lady who just happened to fall into the Emperor's lap.

While we are on the subject of 'the Grey College vetted this guy so he must be on the level' it's worth nothing there is a priestess of Ranald whispering in the ear of the future emperor completely unknown to them and there is a Mathilde passing off Liber Mortis insights as personal experience. The grey college is not omniscient.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Don't worry I for one know who he is perfectly well, he is a high level adviser in a quest called Divided Loyalties. I don't think his exalted position makes him immune to the basic premise of the quest anymore than Empress Heidi is just a sweet patriotic noble lady who just happened to fall into the Emperor's lap.

While we are on the subject of 'the Grey College vetted this guys so he must be on the level' it's worth nothing there is a priestess of Ranald whispering in the ear of the future emperor completely unknown to them and there is a Mathilde passing off Liber Mortis insights as personal experience. The grey college is not omniscient.
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Im not saying he 'is vetted so he must be loyal' im saying 'we don't have the clott to play silly burgers with him'.

if we don't trust him then we just need to be in a position where we are allowed some talkback (LM) or a position we can influence getting rid of him (SM or the emperor's bodyguard/advisor)

edit: the middle manager might be right that the executive is an idiot, but the middle mander was an idiot too for not bitting their tongue.)
 
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DragonParadox said:
Don't worry I for one know who he is perfectly well, he is a high level adviser in a quest called Divided Loyalties. I don't think his exalted position makes him immune to the basic premise of the quest anymore than Empress Heidi is just a sweet patriotic noble lady who just happened to fall into the Emperor's lap.

While we are on the subject of 'the Grey College vetted this guys so he must be on the level' it's worth nothing there is a priestess of Ranald whispering in the ear of the future emperor completely unknown to them and there is a Mathilde passing off Liber Mortis insights as personal experience. The grey college is not omniscient.
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None of that really matters. His trustworthiness or loyalty or even competence... here and now, it seems he has the Imperial seal, the Emperors confidence, and speaks with his voice in matters of foreign affairs. Ensuring his fitness for such duty and trust, believe it or not, is not our responsibility.
You can be sufficiently paranoid, but sometimes you also need to just play your part and do your duty, so you can keep playing the game.

And, OK, if we later find out he has betrayed us and the Empire... well, the Grey College has other duties, too.
 
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[X] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor
 
Harried said:
I mean, I could be misinterpreting some of the back-and-forth, but it sounds like if this guy gets a hint of one of the big secrets we have from us slipping up, he won't hesitate to pull all the rank imaginable to drag it out of us, with our only real defence against him is denying we know anything.

Like, if he mentions having information about a call for aide from K8P to KAK (somehow), and asks us what we know, we better beat his perceptiveness with our poker face, or things will get very sticky.
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Maybe? It really depends on if this person has a particular reason to need information about something like that, and whether that need is greater than the need to not have Eight Peaks—which has shown itself capable of annihilating million-plus waaaghs with barely a scratch—declare a grudge on the Empire. Considering the sorts of things that can be done with such information, I can imagine we would have much bigger concerns by that point.
That's the thing about most of our secrets. They're either A: Dawi tradition secrets that he shouldn't possibly need, or B: things he could only need if he wanted to play silly buggers and make problems, at which point we've got oaths on both sides to stop him. Granted, there's many reasons why we would have difficulty doing so, but still. Also, I highly doubt Boney would drop something that massive on what appears to be a random roll for a social turn.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Im not saying he 'is vetted so he must be loyal' im saying 'we don't have the clott to play silly burgers with him'.

if we don't trust him then we just need to bein a position were we are allowed some talk back (LM) for a position we can influence getting rid of him (SM or the emperors bodyguard/advisor)
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So how is that major diplomatic incident with Karaz Ankor going for him? Really competent diplomacy that.

Trying to press King Belegar's Loremaster (She who Completed the Tale of Silver) about dwarfs, accusing her of lying would not go well for him. We are not 'some middle manager', we are a war hero for an allied alien polity with an obsessive notion of honor.
 
I'm no more worried about this guy asking for the deepest secrets of Gazul than I would if he were a dwarf and we'd learned the deepest secrets of Sigmar from the Grand Theogenist himself. He's not going to be an idiot.
[X] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor
 
DragonParadox said:
While we are on the subject of 'the Grey College vetted this guy so he must be on the level' it's worth nothing there is a priestess of Ranald whispering in the ear of the future emperor completely unknown to them and there is a Mathilde passing off Liber Mortis insights as personal experience. The grey college is not omniscient.
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A priestess who was put their by investing huge amounts of power stolen from Gork (or Mork).
She's really an exception.

I'm shocked that people are so suspicious of the Chamberlain... when the random ass baronet is just being taken at his word.
[Q] Abduct 'Baronet Holzkrug' and interrogate him into telling you who he really works for. Algard just got done warning you about worryingly competent underlings.
 
Dark as Silver said:
A priestess who was put their by investing huge amounts of power stolen from Gork (or Mork).
She's really an exception.

I'm shocked that people are so suspicious of the Chamberlain... when the random ass baronet is just being taken at his word.
[Q] Abduct 'Baronet Holzkrug' and interrogate him into telling you who he really works for. Algard just got done warning you about worryingly competent underlings.
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The Baronet was not asking us about delicate diplomatic information about the dwarfs.

On the question of the Imperial court being infiltrated being an exception, what about all the times they have been infiltrated by Lahmians or Chaos. What was a huge amount of power for Ranald is a moderate expenditure for Tzeench or Slaanesh.
 
Frankly suspicion has nothing to do with it. The intel is not actionable without ruinous consequence. Theres no benefit to telling them. Just skirt around everything and act like were telling the full truth.
 
BoneyM said:
No, only the Amethyst College. For the others, it's usually the family doing the renouncing. Elector Count families in particular would likely face widespread unrest from their vassals if their heir was a Wizard. And if there did need to be a new Elector Count appointed, there's likely to be a lot of difficulty in getting votes for a Wizard.
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But technically, if an EC's brother who is a family man and not a politics man, has a child with magical talent that ends up in, say, the Bright College, and then some unrelated catastrophe (like a Waaagh) kills the whole EC family in one fell swoop then barring assassination or a county-wide rebellion we'd have a Wizard EC on our hands. One that if he plays his hands right and defeats aforementioned Waaagh, might win enough loyalty from his subjects to earn himself a normal life expectancy.
Would he still he completely screwed because all of his neighbor ECs will abuse the clauses of his oath to neuter his ability to participate in imperial politics?
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Frankly suspicion has nothing to do with it. The intel is not actionable without ruinous consequence. Theres no benefit to telling them. Just skirt around everything and act like were telling the full truth.
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On the other hand, the intel that Magister Dame Mathilde Weber is no longer loyal to the Empire is very actionable.
Rafin said:
But technically, if an EC's brother who is a family man and not a politics man, has a child with magical talent that ends up in, say, the Bright College, and then some unrelated catastrophe (like a Waaagh) kills the whole EC family in one fell swoop then barring assassination or a county-wide rebellion we'd have a Wizard EC on our hands. One that if he plays his hands right and defeats aforementioned Waaagh, might win enough loyalty from his subjects to earn himself a normal life expectancy.
Would he still he completely screwed because all of his neighbor ECs will abuse the clauses of his oath to neuter his ability to participate in imperial politics?
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That seems like a lot of conditionals. Does it matter?
 
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Alliterate said:
On the other hand, the intel that Magister Dame Mathilde Weber is no longer loyal to the Empire is very actionable.
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Our loyalty is to the empire not the people that rule it, the grey college cleaves to that maxim very intently. The Emperor isn't read into every secret. Need to know is an inherent part of the grey colleges modus operandi. Regardless I do not think they are capable of knowing that we hid anything with having already known parts of it, which is highly unlikely.
 
Rafin said:
But technically, if an EC's brother who is a family man and not a politics man, has a child with magical talent that ends up in, say, the Bright College, and then some unrelated catastrophe (like a Waaagh) kills the whole EC family in one fell swoop then barring assassination or a county-wide rebellion we'd have a Wizard EC on our hands. One that if he plays his hands right and defeats aforementioned Waaagh, might win enough loyalty from his subjects to earn himself a normal life expectancy.
Would he still he completely screwed because all of his neighbor ECs will abuse the clauses of his oath to neuter his ability to participate in imperial politics?
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It would definitely be a tricky legal quadmire. There's not really any precedent for how that would play out, and it would largely depend on whether that Wizard could find Elector allies, and whether the Supreme Patriarch/Matriarch at the time would go to bat for them with the Emperor. If they couldn't find powerful allies very quickly, they'd face great and mounting pressure to abdicate, possibly including from their own College.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Our loyalty is to the empire not the people that rule it, the grey college cleaves to that maxim very intently. The Emperor isn't read into every secret. Need to know is an inherent part of the grey colleges modus operandi. Regardless I do not think they are capable of knowing that we hid anything with having already known parts of it, which is highly unlikely.
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They'd only need to know one thing we'd rather they didn't know and ask about.
 
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