The idea would be that if Marienburg is losing asymmetrical warfare they wouldn't want to start something serious. If the merchant princes can be killed by shadows in their homes Marienburg could either go on the offensive and probably lose terribly or, hopefully, come to the negotiating table, maybe gain a few concessions but otherwise back down.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The idea would be that if Marienburg is losing asymmetrical warfare they wouldn't want to start something serious. If the merchant princes can be killed by shadows in their homes Marienburg could either go on the offensive and probably lose terribly or, hopefully, come to the negotiating table, maybe gain a few concessions but otherwise back down.
King Arthur
The Once and Future King
I have a question.
What does Marienburg have as protection, magic wise? Do they even have wizards? I know they can get them, mercenary style, but do they have any for just casual investigations?
Marienburg was part of the Empire pretty recently, there must still be a few Empire loyalists left with a decent amount of power. What's stopping us from doing some intrigue to better concentrate the power in the hands of those who are loyal to the Empire, or at least wouldn't be willing to go to war?
Also, how does their government work again? Is it just flat out ruled by rich business people? Like just a council of merchants or something? Can we get Wilhelmina a spot in their government?
What does Marienburg have as protection, magic wise? Do they even have wizards? I know they can get them, mercenary style, but do they have any for just casual investigations?
Marienburg was part of the Empire pretty recently, there must still be a few Empire loyalists left with a decent amount of power. What's stopping us from doing some intrigue to better concentrate the power in the hands of those who are loyal to the Empire, or at least wouldn't be willing to go to war?
Also, how does their government work again? Is it just flat out ruled by rich business people? Like just a council of merchants or something? Can we get Wilhelmina a spot in their government?
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You underestimate the depth to which no one wants it, for three thousand years filed with incitements and localized massacres the elves and dwarfs have not fought. It feels like pure arrogance to imagine they would end up committing mutual suicide over our trade.
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- He/Him
Yeah, against Skaven and Greenskins, not the richest human port in the Old World with ties to the greatest magic users and naval powers bar the Slann in the side of Order (For the former)
- Location
- Colorado
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Though it does beggar the question, can Marienburg survive for extended periods without Imperial trade? AFAIR Marienburg only shares land borders with the empire and maybe(?) Couronne? Presumably with the state of the Wasteland Marienburg needs to import most of it's food, and the only polities close enough by land or sea that can ship food to them before it rots is The Empire and Brettonia.
@BoneyM, could we possibly pitch to the Bismarck expy that he strongarms Brettonia into cutting food exports to Marienburg until they cool their heels? Is that feasible? Or is there a flaw in my logic somewhere?
@BoneyM, could we possibly pitch to the Bismarck expy that he strongarms Brettonia into cutting food exports to Marienburg until they cool their heels? Is that feasible? Or is there a flaw in my logic somewhere?
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The Empire is riddled with rivers, almost all of which reach the sea through Marienburg. This means the majority of the Empire's international trade goes through there. Trying to pivot to overland would be hugely difficult and in some cases impossible.
Breaking the blockade would most likely involve destroying their navy and the infrastructure that allows Marienburg to block the river, and probably anchoring a Dreadnought or five off the coast in case they get any funny ideas about rebuilding.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I really don't expect it. Or at least not naval support. The Elgi would not want to jump immediacy to that. They are likely to give other support first.
I am pretty sure that despite Finubar being the High King, various Asur noble houses still possess their own autonomy. If one of the nobles that invested in Marienburg decided to escalate Finubar's attempt to rein them back will be too little and too late.
He isn't the problem here, it would be whether Asur captains/nobles on site decide.
- Location
- Earth
[ ] The High King could make it so
Let's not cause more fractures inside the Karaz Ankor.
[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
A weakened Empire is bad for every province and may cause unsufficient resources for all provinces or even occuring wars (e.g. against the Vampires)
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
This would temporarily cause the same problems as sufficient concessions.
It very much is not a life-loss free option. Lack of gunpowder and material can lose battles and cost many lives.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
Barak Varr does profit immensely from the canal, this option is very much plausible.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
While it could be spun as such, no such sabotage is currently occurring. The elves are merely being non-committing. Let's not blow it out of proportion.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Is my choice for now.
I do dislike simply giving in and Dwarves are known for potentially grudging against sabotage of their projects.
One Empire province did have problems about it.
Let's not cause more fractures inside the Karaz Ankor.
[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
A weakened Empire is bad for every province and may cause unsufficient resources for all provinces or even occuring wars (e.g. against the Vampires)
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
This would temporarily cause the same problems as sufficient concessions.
It very much is not a life-loss free option. Lack of gunpowder and material can lose battles and cost many lives.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
Barak Varr does profit immensely from the canal, this option is very much plausible.
[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
While it could be spun as such, no such sabotage is currently occurring. The elves are merely being non-committing. Let's not blow it out of proportion.
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Is my choice for now.
I do dislike simply giving in and Dwarves are known for potentially grudging against sabotage of their projects.
One Empire province did have problems about it.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
That is a bit more aggressive then I was hoping for. Still likely the best option.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, it's gonna be rough, but I'm actually kind of relieved. He's not asking us to spill the dwarves' internal secrets (technology, deep magical lore). He is, very sensibly and appropriately, asking for advice from us on the grounds that we seem to have a very keen understanding of dwarven culture, are tightly integrated with their politics, and so forth.
Good man, or at least good at his actual job which is to handle foreign affairs and find good advice on the subject.
Good man, or at least good at his actual job which is to handle foreign affairs and find good advice on the subject.
- Location
- Leeds
First draft of this chapter.
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- It/They
[] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
Apply Dwarf boot to elven face.
Apply Imperial Jackboot to treasonous filthy marienburgers.
Everyone wins!
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
Apply Dwarf boot to elven face.
Apply Imperial Jackboot to treasonous filthy marienburgers.
Everyone wins!
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I'd also like to point out this bit:
The sanest reading of them being vague is that they are currently unwilling to fight on behalf of Marienburg (likely due to Finubar being in charge) and don't want to be caught in a lie. If they were happy to support Marienburg militarily they would say so, as it would make such a war less likely.
It is possible that Ulthuan ha military obligations to Marienburg via treaty, but such would be defensive in nature. They will not aid them in setting up a blockade (except monetarily, perhaps) and they absolutely will not get into a war with Barak Varr, and thus the Karaz Ankor, enforcing such a blockade. Not whilst Finubar is on the throne, and probably not otherwise.
Ulthuan's treaty with Marienburg makes them money, so they're happy it exists in its current position. But at the same time, they do not want to get into a war with the Empire.
The sanest reading of them being vague is that they are currently unwilling to fight on behalf of Marienburg (likely due to Finubar being in charge) and don't want to be caught in a lie. If they were happy to support Marienburg militarily they would say so, as it would make such a war less likely.
It is possible that Ulthuan ha military obligations to Marienburg via treaty, but such would be defensive in nature. They will not aid them in setting up a blockade (except monetarily, perhaps) and they absolutely will not get into a war with Barak Varr, and thus the Karaz Ankor, enforcing such a blockade. Not whilst Finubar is on the throne, and probably not otherwise.
Oh for the love of....Marienburg!
I will say this: They know how to play the game. They know how to play people off each other, and use it huge piles of money to do so and buy mercenaries.
It not just Ulthuan, but Bretonnia would love to conquer Marieburg themselves, and would reject the Empire and Dwarfs doing so. (Plus Kislev, Estalia, and Tilea probably have interests there too.)
So...I would love to reconquer Marienburg...could start a far bigger mess.
I will say this: They know how to play the game. They know how to play people off each other, and use it huge piles of money to do so and buy mercenaries.
It not just Ulthuan, but Bretonnia would love to conquer Marieburg themselves, and would reject the Empire and Dwarfs doing so. (Plus Kislev, Estalia, and Tilea probably have interests there too.)
So...I would love to reconquer Marienburg...could start a far bigger mess.
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Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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- He/Him
Yeah, this seems like rather a lot More than people seem to have originally expected to come from that option D=
So with that knowledge i'm definitely inclined towards [ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
Probably with (both to avoid any suspicions regarding our interests and because i think its right) directing the EIC to direct whatever efforts and resources aren't pointed at the canals and vampire war to easing the pain of the trade losses, and either temporarily or permanently giving up our profits in the org as others have suggested
Trying to independently fight the Karaz Ankor is how the leaders of those Houses come down with a mysterious case of holes in their flesh and sudden exsanguination. The Asur remember the War of the Beard and they know they cannot fight another. They certainly are not going to do it supporting one bunch of mayflies against another.
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Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Also, I'm pretty sure having the dwarves promise any sort of military support would turn off the elves, not make them jump in. It's one thing to support Marienburg against the Empire, another entirely to support them against the Empire and the Karaz Ankor.
Marienburg has its own magical school, and the last time the Empire and Marienburg came to blows, Elven Wizards got involved. And the Marienburgers aren't exactly slouches when it comes to knives in the dark. This sort of complete domination definitely can't be guaranteed.
Bretonnia does not react well to being strongarmed.
- Location
- The internet
Elves backed them in their war of intependance. Ulthan specifically. That's why getting the Eonir to disapprove is so important.
@BoneyM How do the Eonir Trade? I'm trying to see how this impacts them. Ulthan is unlikely to have given Marienburg permission to blockade them, so that potentially amounts to a massive loophole or a way to make them back down.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Finubar's writ is not entirely law like if he were running the Karaz Ankor. He's a leader of Elven society, which sometimes means getting out in front of everybody to take them where they were already going. We know nothing about how the wind blows in Uluthan and if it turns out the Elves are ornery we all lose.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
I'm just sitting here pondering if we should send some people directly to the elves. Breaking up the Marienburg monopoly would be a good thing for the Elves as they can set their own prices for the goods they produce. It would benefit all, unless there's some politics at play and we've got some very influential elves in Marienburg itself who act as middlemen to all the trade coming into the city.
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Ulthuan intervened with magic users...against forces with no magic users at the time. Not a crippling naval assault on Imperial ports, but a minor use of resources even they could afford behind their army meatshields that was almost entirely beyond the Empire's ability to counter at the time.