Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Parabola]

[speculation]

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I'd really rather scout out Mordheim or the Forest of Shadows before making a move on either one, but if you're talking about long term 'which nexus should we recover first', then unless circumstances dramatically change with said scouting actions, we could get started on draining Mordheim right away with hybrid waystones - it was one of the possible deployment locations this turn. From there, active recovery of the city can wait until things get less tainted or any inhabitants try to strike back.

The question is how much do more waystones do to blunt chaos advances? They obvously aren't anything like a total defense, but it does seem clear that they help with keeping demons away.

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• Without high levels of magic in the environment or evil ritual sacrifices, Daemons cannot physically manifest in the world. So if a Chaos army that has a significant amount of Daemons tries to enter a low-magic area, they need to start cutting away at the mortals of their own army or doing some very predictable shit like going to the nearest population centers to sacrifice some people. This is still a net benefit.
  • We explicitly exploited this when retaking Karak Vlag.
  • The start of the Great War Against Chaos began with a daemonic assault from within Nuln. Presumably if Nuln had way more waystones, that might have been harder for the cultists and the daemons to pull off. Hopefully it'd be similar for future attacks of the same nature.
• Without high levels of Dhar in the environment, there'll be less mutants, who very commonly join Chaos - either as actual cultists or merely fodder. And even if they just stay home and lay low and dont join any side, each mutant represents an individual who could have helped fight Chaos but now can't.
• Boney's previously said that Storms of Magic may be blunted somewhat with enough waystones in an area. That's a good thing given how unpredictable they get, and given that Dhar users tend to have more magical firepower available to them than legal wizards.

Why do the dwarfs need a waystone variant optimized for them and what does that mean? It's possible to make one that might be able to be made completely by dwarfs. I'm not sure if the leyline method needs an enchantment to work. But why would we want to make something that the dwarfs alone can make? Encouraging international cooperation is a good thing. I agree though with the elf waystone. The only party to the Accords that shouldn't be able to use the design is Ulthuan, so making an elf waystone is an unfortunate necessity.

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We would have to write-in an action to retake the capstone action with Zlata to give each faction variants. Kislev flat-out has to rely on either the elves, the Empire, or the dwarfs to provide the capstone. I don't see why we should give the people who have to be badgered into accepting waystones their own variant when Kislev can't even make their own. There's only so many times it'll be possible to convince the thread to take the action. It'd be a lot better use of the action to get a leyline waystone similar to our current one.

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I definitely agree that we should get a similar-yet-cheaper leyline-only waystone first, and that it's unlikely we'll be taking the action many times, but there is a certain appeal to getting more models done.

It's not so much that each faction needs a waystone model only they can do, so much as it'd help. Asides from being a long-term redundancy, it would mean they could each spread waystones faster, without needing to wait on one another.

Besides, Caledor leylines require a speaker of Anoqueyan or Lingua Praestentia, and both of them are magical languages, so dwarfs can't actually use it for making their own model (assuming it even works with their network in the first place). Currently, the only leyline method the dwarfs could do without outside assistance would be the Riverine Spirit method, but only Barak Varr has a long river that runs next to it, so it's not exactly ideal for the rest of the Karaz Ankor. The best options for getting a dwarf-doable leyline would be either trying to figure out Road or Material leylines, the former of which seems more doable than not.

...You're right about Kislev, though: Unless the Ice Court and/or Niedzwenka were so happy due to Praag getting given waystones that they'd be willing to independently make enchantment prototypes for the capstone and storage and foundation, I can't see them getting their own model during the Project's lifespan.

 

[WestOrEast]

There is no reason why Kislev couldn't make their own, they just need to trade with the Ogres for titan metal.

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Humans, elves and dwarves don't eat merchants, not even if they're very plump indeed. Not even the radical Ranaldians.

And even with the counterpoint that some ogres understand the idea of trade, I just can't see the urgency in giving Kislev their own, special waystone. Without some extremely good arguments, the only variant I'm likely to approve is a leyline transmission only model, just because while riverine transport is nice, it really is just an optional extra most of the time that bumps up the complexity.

 

[DragonParadox]

Humans, elves and dwarves don't eat merchants, not even if they're very plump indeed. Not even the radical Ranaldians.

And even with the counterpoint that some ogres understand the idea of trade, I just can't see the urgency in giving Kislev their own, special waystone. Without some extremely good arguments, the only variant I'm likely to approve is a leyline transmission only model, just because while riverine transport is nice, it really is just an optional extra most of the time that bumps up the complexity.

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I mean there is a strong adventure lobby, going on the silk road looking for titan metal is one way to find it.

 

[The Lone badger]

We very much do not want there to be a lucrative trade in Titan Metal, lest isolated waystones be even more in peril.

 

[DragonParadox]

We very much do not want there to be a lucrative trade in Titan Metal, lest isolated waystones be even more in peril.

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No danger of that. Reused Waystone Gold is magically useless, we tried. It would have to be the pure stuff from titan ruins.

 

[Glau]

You know, if we spread a 'if you melt it, it loses all its value' rumor, it may mean that any future thefts are at least reusable.

 

[Imperious]

I think the answer to this is self evidently no. Caledor Dragontamer would then kick his ass as needed, but he wouldn't serve.

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Yeah. Caledor Dragontamer is probably about a prime Nagash level mage, and we all know how that fight went down on both of those counts. The only exception might be if you had the fight start with the two of them right next to each other where Settra might be close enough to successfully shank him before Caledor unmade him with his mastery of the arcane.

 

[MrHobbit]

There is no reason why Kislev couldn't make their own, they just need to trade with the Ogres for titan metal.

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That's basically the same thing of what I said though. It involves spending one action to gain another component. It changes the method that is used. I'm also not sure if Kislev can made waystone-gold. The negotiations involve getting titan-metal. The only people we know who can make it are Caledor's mage-smiths, and apparently they either haven't shared the process or they're just so much better at it than anyone else.

I definitely agree that we should get a similar-yet-cheaper leyline-only waystone first, and that it's unlikely we'll be taking the action many times, but there is a certain appeal to getting more models done.

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I think it's neat to get more models, but past two or three, I will just losing interest. We could investigate Tilea, or reclaim a nexus, or poke at exotic mysteries. I agree it would help, but for the dwarfs in particular I don't think it would help much.

I'm not sure if dwarfs are incapable of the leyline method. The mountain-waystones accept Lingua Praestantia. It'd make sense for them to accept Khazalid phrases too, but I think it's notable. I wasn't sure if it would work though, so I agree with your point on that. The material method is probably the best for dwarfs. The road method relies on the yngra elthrai. I don't think dwarfs would be more capable of modifying that than they would regular leylines.

There are material methods for the storage and Ice Witch magic might be capable of enchanting the Golden Age storage. I wouldn't bet on it, but it might. Kislev should be able to produce the clockwork foundation. Unless you don't want to produce a mostly mundane waystone, it's just the capstone we're missing.

 

[BurnNote]

You know, if we spread a 'if you melt it, it loses all its value' rumor, it may mean that any future thefts are at least reusable.

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You'd also have to change the law so that it's less illegal to have the unmelted version. Because right now, it's worthless not melted down, because you get executed, but if it is melted, you have a while bunch of impure gold with stuff in it, which is still pretty valuable.

And then you run into the risk of actually encouraging people to take them down cause it's not actually an execution anymore to have it.

 

[pucflek]

I don´t really think i have the chops to do the idea justice, but the thought would just not leave me, so like. Here.
________
You do not know when you are born, for your first memory with any clarity is from when you were two months old. You were playing then, a game with your brothers. Simple wrassling. Only your brothers. You do not know where your sisters went. You do not know if you had any, but you feel as if you did.

You do not have a mother, but your second memory is of a rat who you thought was your father, telling you he is not your father. Not-father teaches you all you know. That you have thirteen Fathers. Twelve who must be obeyed and protected, and thirteenth, The Under-Father, for whom simple obedience above everyone else would do. They love you and you must love them back. You accept this. You will learn how to fight and protect them with your life. You accept this too.

By the third month, many of your smaller brothers disappear. Any that did not reach your shoulder were winnowed. Not-father tells you they were unsuited for your calling, and shall instead be scribes for the Fathers. You do not know if you believe this. You pray to Under-Father to tell you, but he does not answer. You miss them. You learn that you have many brothers but they are not-brothers. They do not love your Fathers as you do, and might do them harm. You must strike them down if they ever attempt to do so. You are not sure you understand, but your not-father says so, so this too, you accept.

By the sixth month, you are a warrior with few peers. In the sparring ring, you defeat your brothers nine times out of ten. When they bring Eshin-brothers, you win less, but with each spar the margin of error lessens. Not-Father tells you that your ability to recognize when they are about to strike is commendable. The Warrior Father says the same. You preen with pride.

You are a year old and swear an oath before a grand pillar. You will never speak again.

You are a year and a half and you guard an important son of the Warrior Father in Festerpike. There is a commotion, rising panic as brother turns on brother. A rebel claimant comes. You fulfil your orders, and guard the kin of Warrior Father because you were entrusted with his safety. All the same, you feel sadness. You cannot tell anyone.

You are two years old and Father of Disease and Warrior Father rise up to strike against rest of the Fathers. You do not know what to do. You pray to Under-Father to give you clarity, for only he can in this time of divided loyalties but he does not answer. You protect the kin of Warrior, because it is the last order you were given. Surely this must be what was intended.

You are four years old and all you know is pain. They call you traitor, supporter of traitor kin. How were you to know which Father to obey? Warrior Father´s kin left you to guard his escape and now your not-brothers caught you and they´ve tortured you and you see now that there is no love anywhere. Only pain and hate. You feel it too. There is a human woman in the next cell over. She does not speak much, for they break her as much as they break you, and you feel she does not trust you besides. But she does tell you of the Land of Bretonnia. There is no Under-Father there. Brother does not kill Brother, and only sometimes not-brother. You think you would´ve liked seeing such a place.

You are five years old and you will escape. Once more does another rebel claimant rise to usurp the position of current leader of Festerpike. In the chaos, you snap the neck of the not-brother that tended to you non-so gently and steal the keys to other cells. You open Juliette´s first, and it is at this moment that you feel Under-Father for the first time. You thought it would be a joyous occasion in your first years, but the only thing you feel is pain as your very life feels like its being torn from your body, pulled sideways and up. Then Juliette touches you with prayer on her lips and the feeling settles. You see light in her eyes as you never have before and feel it fill you.

You are eight years old, and on the morrow you will slay dragon. You ride in full armour, and that you ride is the only reason you can bear the unfamiliar shape of the greaves you must wear so that none of the men that you protect know what you are. As the evening approaches, you break the camp for you and Juliette. She´s been your guide this far and never led you wrong. It is through her that you have gotten arms and armour, and it is through her that you found new purpose. You join her in the last prayer of the day, and for all that you know the task ahead is a daunting one, you feel no fear. When you fall asleep, you dream of a grail, blazing beyond horizon.

 

[fictionfan]

Well now that the college and other organizations know that titan metal is valuable I expect that a certain amount of it will be found. If a completely untrained child can douse for metal then surely the gold college has a few metal findings spells and rituals.

 

[DragonParadox]

Well now that the college and other organizations know that titan metal is valuable I expect that a certain amount of it will be found. If a completely untrained child can douse for metal then surely the gold college has a few metal findings spells and rituals.

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Thing is titan metal is titanium and no one knows how to refine it, that is why we are stuck scrounging it out of Sky Titan tools and weapons.

 

[BurnNote]

Well now that the college and other organizations know that titan metal is valuable I expect that a certain amount of it will be found. If a completely untrained child can douse for metal then surely the gold college has a few metal findings spells and rituals.

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There just might not be any deposits. And the core problem is the metalurgy, since even if we had the metal (and the dwarfs do have some) we can't reproduce the alloy in the right form.

 

[Mopman43]

Yeah. Caledor Dragontamer is probably about a prime Nagash level mage, and we all know how that fight went down on both of those counts. The only exception might be if you had the fight start with the two of them right next to each other where Settra might be close enough to successfully shank him before Caledor unmade him with his mastery of the arcane.

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Are you referring to the time Nagash was defeated by the living armies of Nehekhara under the alliance of Priest-Kings, the time he was defeated by the living armies of Nehekhara under Alcadizzar the Conquerer, or the time he was forced out of Nehekhara by the undead armies of Nehekhara under Settra?

Or maybe the time that Alcadizzar killed him by stabbing him? Or the time Sigmar killed him with Ghal Maraz?

Nagash lost a lot of times.

 

[Imperious]

Are you referring to the time Nagash was defeated by the living armies of Nehekhara under the alliance of Priest-Kings, the time he was defeated by the living armies of Nehekhara under Alcadizzar the Conquerer, or the time he was forced out of Nehekhara by the undead armies of Nehekhara under Settra?

Or maybe the time that Alcadizzar killed him by stabbing him? Or the time Sigmar killed him with Ghal Maraz?

Nagash lost a lot of times.

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I'm referring to the time Nagash beat Settra in End of Times, you know, the one they made this cool artwork of:


what with how the discussion in question was how a top tier mage would do in a one on one fight with Settra. The reference to "both counts" being on how Nagash beat Settra, and how despite being totally beaten Settra refused him utterly, which is where the famous "Settra does not serve, Settra rules" lines comes from, hence the reference to "prime Nagash", meaning Nagash at his most powerful. In most of those cases that you mention Nagash has something or another hamstringing him.

 

[BeepSmile]

When you fall asleep, you dream of a grail, blazing beyond horizon.

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grinning-with-passion-fury-joy

I very much think you did the idea justice.
Skaven Grail Knight fuck yeah!

 

[Andres]

Can GW be said to have slanderous, disparaging intent against the good character of wetlands?

 

[mathymancer]

Random theological digression: a while ago we got some books on Hashut, so I asked Boney if they contain anything linking him to the Horned Rat and Morghur, since Borek's tale implies they might all have been what the thread called "warden Gods". Boney replied:

There's a oft-repeated title of 'Father of Darkness' that rings similarly to Morghur's once title of 'City-Father' and the Horned Rat's 'Under-Father'.

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and in response I jokingly drew attention to the fact that we had a new face of the coin called 'The Father'. On further thought, what if there actually is a connection there?

The Sidestory heavily implies a connection between what seem to be Old Ones and some modern Gods. The precise meaning of that connection can be debated and speculated on, but for simplicity's sake let's grant for the sake of this post that Cd-3 etc. are Gods. If Hashut, Morghur and the Horned Rat are the team of Zl, that gives their fatherly title a different meaning: they were involved in the creation of some of the mortal races, so it makes sense for mortals to refer to them as parents. In that context, 'The Father' is actually a fitting title for Ranald; Cd-3 was involved in the creation of humanity, so if Ranald is Cd-3 that makes Him a father of humanity.

So I started looking around for other Gods with similar titles, and I found a few exactly among those Gods that I speculated to be connected to the Old One teams. Isha and Shallya, who can both be connected to Qt-3, are 'The Mother' and 'the Mother of Mothers' respectively (the latter is not a very common title for Shallya, but then again 'The Father' is not exactly a common title for Ranald either). Asuryan, who is probably the main candidate for Qt-1, is apparently known as 'Father of the Gods'. Ryha and Taal are known as 'Mother Rhya' and 'Father Taal', and I would guess at least one of them is Cd-1. But if we assume Taal, Rhya, Ulric and Ranald are the Cd team then we're still one God short, which leads me to the shocking conclusion of this post. One of the things mentioned in the sidestory is that Cd-3 was not involved in the creation of the halflings, so we might consider looking to the halfling pantheon for our fifth member. And what do you know - Esmerelda, the head of the halfling pantheon, is "the Many-Times-Grandmother". To top it all off, Her symbol is a triangle over a line, which is the kind of simple symbol that's perfect for drawing implausible connections (like, say, the triangle is Asuryan's pyramid and the line is, uh, the Geomantic Web). The evidence is overwhelming - Pie Week is an Old One holiday.

 

[Mopman43]

Can GW be said to have slanderous, disparaging intent against the good character of wetlands?

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No more than historical myths and folklore I think.

 

[BeepSmile]

The evidence is overwhelming - Pie Week is an Old One holiday.

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The Old Ones were cunning indeed.

How plausible do you think it is that continued observation of the Pie Week "holiday" ritual is contributing to the continued functioning of the Geomantic Web?

 

[BurnNote]

Can GW be said to have slanderous, disparaging intent against the good character of wetlands?

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Kinda, but most humans across history have thought wetlands kind of suck. Biodiversity is nice, but at lot less nice than having food, which non-wetland is better for. Also a lot less risk of dying because you stepped wrong. Also also, it's generally agreed that mosquitos and ilk are an exception to the biodiversity is nice thing, and we'd like 0 biodiversity with those guys.

 

[Andres]

The evidence is overwhelming - Pie Week is an Old One holiday.

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WFRP 4e: Archives of the Empire, page 35

2431 IC
After the Great Fire of Altdorf, Halfling pies are one of the few things available to eat. Pie Week, invented a century earlier in Saurapfel, becomes a hit in the capital and soon spreads.

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The logical conclusion is that there are Old One ruins at Saurapfel.

 

[mathymancer]

The Old Ones were cunning indeed.

How plausible do you think it is that continued observation of the Pie Week "holiday" ritual is contributing to the continued functioning of the Geomantic Web?

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WFRP 4e: Archives of the Empire, page 35

The logical conclusion is that there are Old One ruins at Saurapfel.

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Obviously one century before 2431 IC isn't exactly 100 years ago, and 2301 IC - the date of the Great War against Chaos - could easily fit. It seems reasonable to assume that in the aftermath of the war, the Waystone network in the Empire was dealing with some stress due to the destruction of the Almshoven nexus. Is it not possible - nay, likely - that Pie Week was invented to somehow protect that network, which is after all built upon the Geomantic Web? A quick look at the a map of the moot will show that Saurapfel lies directly west of the mootland nexus, perfectly positioned to be the site of the Waystone network ritual.

 

[Boney]

Pie Week is a numerological ritual to shore up rational geometry. You don't want to see the sort of shit that starts crawling out of the angles when pi's weak.

 

[Andres]

Excerpt from Rise of the Ynnari: Ghost Warrior. This takes place in Eldanesh's tomb.
<Reddit - Dive into anything>

The Warshard [the strongest Avatar of Khaine] was its title, that benighted fragment of the war god drawn not by the survivors of the aeldari fleeing in their craftworlds, but the most bitter, hateful sliver of Khaine flung back to the site of His most infamous murder. All that saw the apparition of brutal death understood that they looked again at the closest thing to Khaine incarnate, of murder given immortal flesh.

It lifted the blade and screams of terror were torn from the mortal throats of those that witnessed it. As the Warshard was the most malevolent remains of the Bloody-Handed One, so it bore His most infamous weapon. Anaris, known as the Sword of Vaul, the Splinter of Suns, the Widowmaker, the Spite of the Slain. The same blade that ended the life of Eldanesh, whose blood still hissed along its insubstantial edge.

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Vaul was the first being to wield the Widowmaker.

And the strongest Avatar of Khaine is defeated in its first showing, as is tradition.