Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Not in absolute terms, but it could, say, have more destructive power because it's better attuned to causing destruction than the original Wind was.
There's something I'm puzzling over. Dhar's whole thing is that it's powerful but corrupting, however, it isn't innately stronger than the Colours, it's just that you can easily get a lot of it by turning any of the nearby Colours into Dhar. With that in mind, what happens if you grab whatever Winds are available to fuel your spells, but you don't turn them into Dhar first? Is it possible to do that outside of Petty and Lesser Magic, or does it result in nothing but a miscast?

My first conclusion is that no, it's not possible. The Winds simply cannot play well together unless you force it through brute willpower, but doing that is what turns the Winds into Dhar. That's why in Realms of Sorcery p127-129, it says that as petty magicians grow in power, they mentally degenerate and their magic becomes crueller (they make voodoo pain dolls and such, essentially 4e's Lore of Witchcraft.) The way they do magic is safe enough at Petty/Lesser levels, but at greater levels, their magical practice invariably creates Dhar.

My second conclusion is that it must be possible because College wizards do it. While they certainly try to keep to monocolour casting, sometimes they mess up and other Colours sneak in, causing a miscast. However, miscasts and success aren't mutually exclusive: a wizard can cast their Colour Lore spell and miscast due to other Winds sneaking into their spellcraft, which means they did in fact do crappy multi-Colour spellcasting. There's a possible invalidator in this theory though: there's multiple ways a spell can miscast. Perhaps multiple Colours strictly results in failure+miscast, while success+miscast is strictly the result of some other miscast catalyst, like the Colour simply deciding to rebel on a whim.

A final thought is that Fozzrik certainly used multiple Colours. Now yes, he is Fozzrik the Flying Instructor, but the spell Fozzrik's Freight-Fleecing Flimflam is usable by everyone.
 
With that in mind, what happens if you grab whatever Winds are available to fuel your spells, but you don't turn them into Dhar first? Is it possible to do that outside of Petty and Lesser Magic, or does it result in nothing but a miscast?
That's how you cast with Dhar (at least according to the 2e rules). Making true dark magic isn't the point of the dark magic method, having more power is. The winds touch and make dhar as a consequence rather than a goal.

This is described as 'wielding a crude but terrible club'.

Mechanically you do get to roll an extra dice that you can substitute for one of your normal ones, so it's a small but statistically significant increase in how much power you're getting. That dice gets counted as a full casting dice for the miscast rules even if you don't use it, though, so you pay way more in risk than you get in benefit.

Dhar the optional casting rule is mandatory to cast spells from the dhar lores, because those spells are dhar colored. This is described as alien from normal magic, as different from the normal way as if you had thrown down your sword and summoned daemons to devour an opponent in a duel.
 
Last edited:
There's something I'm puzzling over. Dhar's whole thing is that it's powerful but corrupting, however, it isn't innately stronger than the Colours, it's just that you can easily get a lot of it by turning any of the nearby Colours into Dhar. With that in mind, what happens if you grab whatever Winds are available to fuel your spells, but you don't turn them into Dhar first? Is it possible to do that outside of Petty and Lesser Magic, or does it result in nothing but a miscast?

My first conclusion is that no, it's not possible. The Winds simply cannot play well together unless you force it through brute willpower, but doing that is what turns the Winds into Dhar. That's why in Realms of Sorcery p127-129, it says that as petty magicians grow in power, they mentally degenerate and their magic becomes crueller (they make voodoo pain dolls and such, essentially 4e's Lore of Witchcraft.) The way they do magic is safe enough at Petty/Lesser levels, but at greater levels, their magical practice invariably creates Dhar.

My second conclusion is that it must be possible because College wizards do it. While they certainly try to keep to monocolour casting, sometimes they mess up and other Colours sneak in, causing a miscast. However, miscasts and success aren't mutually exclusive: a wizard can cast their Colour Lore spell and miscast due to other Winds sneaking into their spellcraft, which means they did in fact do crappy multi-Colour spellcasting. There's a possible invalidator in this theory though: there's multiple ways a spell can miscast. Perhaps multiple Colours strictly results in failure+miscast, while success+miscast is strictly the result of some other miscast catalyst, like the Colour simply deciding to rebel on a whim.

A final thought is that Fozzrik certainly used multiple Colours. Now yes, he is Fozzrik the Flying Instructor, but the spell Fozzrik's Freight-Fleecing Flimflam is usable by everyone.

My take is that it's generally not possible. You can successfully perform a Wind spell (while also miscasting) where small amount of another Wind has slipped in but that's in spite of the other Wind, not it being used as 'fuel'. Fuel, IMO, is a misleading way to think of it outside of a single-Wind context - most Wind spells aren't just using raw power, they're using the nature of their Wind as a catalyst to cause a very specific change in the world. You can't use Ghyran to fuel an Aqshy spell because Ghyran doesn't cause fire, unless it's being fully converted into Dhar and you're using the destructive and consuming nature of Dhar to fuel that fire, which is not something you do by accident.

It might be possible to use overlapping spheres of influence to use two different Winds to fuel the same effect - like, say, creating a lot of mist using Ulgu's affinity to fog, Azyr's affinity to weather, and Ghyran's affinity to water - but a) it would be immensely safer and easier to just use three different spells in sequence instead of trying to weave them all together into one incredibly dangerous and debilitating piece of magic, and b) running completely out of a single Wind is just not a problem that Wizards in the Empire generally encounter, and if they do there are easier ways to address it.
 
Well, you need the engine to stop producing thrust, or else you can't stop moving/land, and the way I'm imagining it the intensity of the fire when the enchantment's active is probably going to be too much to idle it.
What Reimagined said, and even if it could go down 'low' enough to land but not fully off, then noise? Wear and tear on the boiler, gears, and whirly bits? Maintenance?
You can't extinguish the fire before you land in a normal gyrocopter, which are also one-dwarf vehicles, so you don't have a stoker as you would in a steam train. I assume there's a physical mechanism that dictates how much steam is converted into power. Once you've landed you can probably disconnect the gears, or just drain the water if wear and tear is an issue (or in situations where it's not, like a need for a quick getaway or a very short visit, you can presumably use whatever device the Dwarves already have to keep a gyrocopter ready to leave at a moment's notice).
 
running completely out of a single Wind is just not a problem that Wizards in the Empire generally encounter, and if they do there are easier ways to address it.
I feel like that this particular issue is something that the Total War games have exacerbated in popular consciousness because of the way that those games in particular use "wind availability" as a limiting factor on how much magic use you can make use of in an army, and so people think of it as being this massive factor that needs to be addressed for magic users to function.
 
My take is that it's generally not possible. You can successfully perform a Wind spell (while also miscasting) where small amount of another Wind has slipped in but that's in spite of the other Wind, not it being used as 'fuel'. Fuel, IMO, is a misleading way to think of it outside of a single-Wind context - most Wind spells aren't just using raw power, they're using the nature of their Wind as a catalyst to cause a very specific change in the world. You can't use Ghyran to fuel an Aqshy spell because Ghyran doesn't cause fire, unless it's being fully converted into Dhar and you're using the destructive and consuming nature of Dhar to fuel that fire, which is not something you do by accident.

It might be possible to use overlapping spheres of influence to use two different Winds to fuel the same effect - like, say, creating a lot of mist using Ulgu's affinity to fog, Azyr's affinity to weather, and Ghyran's affinity to water - but a) it would be immensely safer and easier to just use three different spells in sequence instead of trying to weave them all together into one incredibly dangerous and debilitating piece of magic, and b) running completely out of a single Wind is just not a problem that Wizards in the Empire generally encounter, and if they do there are easier ways to address it.
And as I understand it, Windherding would be two people using their Winds' natures to each discretely cause a different, specific effect towards a greater shared goal. In theory a single person could use two Winds to do the same, but in practice, that person needs to be an elf, or at least they need to be one to do it safely. Windherding is less efficient than having the two wizards cast two different spells or make two different magic items, but it lets you cast spells and make magic items you simply couldn't if they were working separately.

I hope that one day we can make that balrog cloak. It would be so cool.
 
Last edited:
I think Warhammer is copying Star Wars. Compared to Qhaysh, Dhar is quicker, easier, more seductive, but not stronger.
 
Last edited:
well, there is a zero chance that he is that kid, unless you are completely changing his entire life to the point that he is just not the same person. This kid is from a different place, has a different upbringing, and appears at the collages with no magical ability at a different age.
 
I have interesting brainstorm.

Dawi-Zharr's general policy about Skaven is "don't brother attempting to enslave them, just kill them on spot" due to their attempts to enslave captured Skaven being complete failure.

But Skaven of Clan Mors are different, they're ordered (for a Skaven) and loyal to their superiors (again, for a Skaven).

This may be a bit overreach, but I feel that this means to Mors-descent enslaved Skaven could potentially have similar role to Hobgoblins in Dawi-Zharr's Empire
 
well, there is a zero chance that he is that kid, unless you are completely changing his entire life to the point that he is just not the same person. This kid is from a different place, has a different upbringing, and appears at the collages with no magical ability at a different age.

To be fair it's implied in canon that Gelt could have been lying his ass off about his history. Though that is not a sign it's that kid, could be from anywhere.
 
Armor Testing New
Armor Testing

"I'm ready, Eike. Hit me as hard as you can."

You were standing in your training hall, resplendent in your new armor. You'd had it fitted at the Bright College, but you hadn't had a chance to really put it through its paces until now. (You'd been told it could block anything short of a cannonball, but what did that mean in practice?) Your Aethyric Armor had been cast, the Armor of von Tarnus somehow locking the spell in place around itself, and you had Eike standing ready with a practice sw-

You felt a tap through the breastplate. You could see Eike recovering from a full-force thrust, but all you'd felt was a tap. You had her strike at your side, your back, your vambraces, your greaves - tap tap tap tap. No harm done, and no force to push or bruise you either. She eventually acquiesced to switching to her real sword, but to no effect. No matter how hard she hit you. Finally, as her sword swung at your helmet, you reached out with your gauntlet and grabbed it.

-In an instant its talons are out of Deathfang's neck and catching Branulhune in mid-air, and though daemonic ichor spills forth, it manages to arrest the swing of the runic blade.-

You used her surprise to yank the sword out of her hands, and called an end to the exercise. You pulled off your gauntlet to see your calloused but unharmed hand underneath. Ultimately, there were no bruises on your body; not so much as a single sign that you should have taken multiple mortal wounds.

"This... requires further testing." You concluded.



A half dozen of Sozic's best (along with Sozic herself) stood in the fighting pit, exhausted. First there had been duels, then group fights, until finally you'd faced a coordinated assault with nets and rope. But you never grew tired during combat, and so you stood where some of the best of the Undumgi had failed to topple you.

"I should do more testing." You remark to yourself.



You stood at the entrance to the Underway to Karak Drazh, just outside of the maximum range of the grapecannon and ballistas behind you. Your presence here alone is all the challenge you need make, and soon enough a charge of orcs comes to take your head.

Hours later, you finally retreated back down the tunnel. Not because you had to - you are neither tired nor injured. But you've cast Aethyric Armor so many times that you'd started to sense your steady grasp on the familiar spell slipping. And while Black Crag had countless hordes to replace the ones you'd slain, the piles of orc corpses you've left behind would be quite the feast for the We today.

"Gonna need more testing."



You were hidden in the innermost sanctum of the Iron Orc's citadel, listening in as their General discussed strategy with his Lieutenants, and all you could feel was disappointment. Was this it?

It had been difficult to pierce the enchantment hiding their compound, but despite the Iron Orc's military-like organization, it was easy to sneak through the rest of their security. They were quite dangerous, to be sure: Orcish strength paired with Chaos-runed armor and iron discipline. Their general even more so, a towering edifice of metal, muscle, and demonic enchantment. But you'd faced stronger opponents (and actual demons) during the Karag Dum Expedition. You realized, quite startlingly, that here was compound's entire leadership in one room - and you could take them. So you did.

During a momentary distraction as the Lieutenants argued over meat rations, you sliced the General's neck, then stabbed through his heart. You would've bisected his head as well, just to be sure, but it was then that the Lieutenants fell upon you.

They did not live long enough to raise the alarm.

As the afternoon sun fell into twilight, you walked down down the mountain to retrieve your sheep.

"I didn't really get much testing done that time."



A small army of skeletons surrounded you, as one of the last Necromancers stupid enough to remain in Sylvania monologued at you from across the crypt.

But it was only a small army, with no artillery or heavy hitters of any kind.

"I need better testing."



A Druchii assassin was behind you, dagger pointed at your gorget. You didn't bother to turn from the pair of Druchii dueling you, as you managed to maneuver your hands through one's guard and strike with Branulhune. The dagger skittered off of you, and only then did you turn around and ensure the assassin did not get in a second strike. A shadow warrior finished off the last, before you could manage to do so.

"I need more testing."



You were hidden in the second best hiding spot above a Skaven encampment. It was nostalgic, really, just like back before the Battle of the Caldera. You were deciding upon your approach when out of the shadows a sword appeared at your neck. Your sword.

"Many-many stories have reached Eshin's ears. An unstoppable quiet-quiet man-thing in armor that only her own sword could breach. But you are not the only one who knows a trick-secret of space-time, and now your sword is mine."

You looked down at the sword threatening your life, then back up at where the unseen voice was speaking.

"Look again. That's my decoy sword."

There was a silence of befuddlement, as the other assassin tilted the sword to examine the one rune upon it. And then Branithune, your training sword, clattered to the ground.

"So-so it is." Came a faint voice from outside sword-point reach. "Next time, I will take your real sword. But perhaps next time you will spot-find me before I do so, yes?"

You had no time to reply, as the sudden crash of metal on rock had alerted the guards.

"Maybe I should pause further testing." You muttered.
 
Last edited:
well, there is a zero chance that he is that kid, unless you are completely changing his entire life to the point that he is just not the same person. This kid is from a different place, has a different upbringing, and appears at the collages with no magical ability at a different age.

As far as I am aware, Gelt's entire backstory is "he might have been taught alchemy in Tilea before he arrived one day in Marienburg".

Being the son of a Stirlander soldier-turned-mercenary who was willing to travel halfway across the world is not mutually exclusive with that.
 
That's not unique to Star Wars, it's a fundamental part of most dualistic cosmologies.
Would be weird otherwise. If the dark arts, that either require immoral and unsavory sacrifices or cause corruption and harm innocents, or both, weren't either easier to learn and use or more powerful, or both, then they would be the domain of insane people only. Of people for whom evil is a goal in itself.
 
As far as I am aware, Gelt's entire backstory is "he might have been taught alchemy in Tilea before he arrived one day in Marienburg".
2e Roleplay says his homeland is 'in the Black Gulf' (most people assume Border Princes, my preference is Sartosa) and that he learned Alchemy throughout the southern Old World and in Araby before arriving in Marienburg to join the Colleges.

4e gives more specific backstory, saying he's the son of a Border Princes apothecary, but also says his backstory is entirely fabricated and nobody has any idea what his past is.
 
Back
Top