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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Boney said:
[ ] [ULTHUAN] Cooperation
Ask for Ulthuan to supply information to further the Waystone Project, most notably the method of connecting new Waystones to the existing network.
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This would flip the Waystone Project on its head. This entire time, we've been trying to reverse-engineer Ulthuani waystone components, and when that fails, trying to create the best replacement(s) we can manage. But that's not what Ulthuan wants at all. They already have perfectly engineered masterpieces that an Archmage can carefully assemble over a decade. What they want is our alternate methods. Components that are quick and easy to make. Leylines that don't jam and cause dhar pileups. Exotic methods they'd normally never even consider. And whatever else we can come up with. Ulthuan has their bespoke masterpieces, but what they're looking for is a way to slap dirt and mud together and call it a functional waystone. It doesn't even have to be good, it just has to work.
 
Boney said:
Yes, all of Kislev, Laurelorn, the Karaz Ankor, and the Empire all have strategic and economic interest in the Sea of Claws, and all would be better off if they had an ironclad guarantee that they could pass freely through Marienburg.
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I think that swings me over to Marienburg, then.

Ulthuan's Cooperation would be nice, but we have the Grey Lords over here in the Old World and we can extrapolate from the qualities they possess; that is to say that the Ulthuan solution is probably high magic because that's the standard for their good mages, and it's probably very complex because there are no apprentice high mages.

Or, to put it simply, they have a solution that works but that will be hard for us to implement. The project will benefit, but we'll probably still have to put in the work to develop our own understanding of leylines and leyline replacements in order to truly own the result.

Marienburg, on the other hand, is standing in the way of the Industrial Capacity of multiple highly motivated nations. It's simply a matter of specialization; thousands, potentially tens of thousands of naval specialists are languishing because of that blockage. Hundreds of thousands of people are not receiving the services they could be receiving.

Imagine the old world with real leylines proliferating. Now imagine the old world but they have actual navies and international trade agreements and defensive fleets. Marienburg has been standing in the way of international relations for literally centuries at this point.

It's annoying to think that resolving a political matter could do more for the survival of the Old World than reaching for the heights of arcane knowledge -- but sometimes the solution that gives the most good is getting the mundane boot off of our collective necks.
 
While Marienburg is a tempting problem to solve with an Ulthuan-shaped hammer, the canal is done and the new status is quo. I don't think that's worth more than leyline passwords to hook new Waystones into, let alone any other cooperation Ulthuan might be willing to throw our way.

I'm very tempted by the "Kislev helps militarily secure the Forest of Shadows Nexus" idea, but Kislev's power projection ain't great and it runs counter to the stated plan of building up Kislev's strength against the next Everchosen. So right now I support book blood price, though I'd really like to see a proposed wording of it hashed out, because there are a lot of different ways we can present it to Boris. Maybe something like this?

[ ] [BLOOD] Personal: Partnership between Kron-Azril-Ungol and Kislev's libraries

Partnership is a deeper tie than just copying agreements, it seems:
Boney said:
Partner Libraries:
The Mootland Genealogical Library

Copying Rights secured for:
Aquila Academy (Nuln)
Imperial School of Engineers (Nuln)
Imperial Gunnery School
Minor Colleges of Nuln

Serving as Archives to:
College of Elementalists
Grand University of Nuln

Other features:
The Halfling Annex - Halfling genealogical records and chronicles of the Mootland
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It might just mean that the copying agreement is bilateral with the Halflings in a way that isn't true with the Nuln institutions, but whatever it is, I want it, since the point of bookbloodprice is to ask for something that benefits Mathilde while also benefiting Kislev. "I want all your libraries to share their knowledge with mine and also receive the knowledge we possess!" is a pretty good deal when your scholarly traditions keep getting hit over the head by a Chaotic brick every few generations.
 
I'm in favor of Books, because BOOK but it's actually also beneficial for Kislev. Like, let's leave aside the presevation of knowledge in the face of the coming catastrophe. That's not a small thing, but it only helps in the aftermath.

But there's another way it helps: Because a whole bunch of dudes will be coming over with their dwarven coins, and they'll be spending it on Kislev food, Kiselv entertainment, and being at least somewhat tied to the EIC (since they're from one of the EIC bastions and used to buying from the EIC) it can at least encourage some ties (I want to emphasises that this will be minor and probably not show up. I'm not saying we'll get to eat the Greater Economic Ties cake too. I'm just saying it'll create ties by simple virtue of young people boinking if nothing else). It's a way to get some money into their economy, and I personally think it's also a delightfully sneaky way of arranging things so our friends help each other. I feel like that's a very Mathilde thing to do.
 
chocolote12 said:
Ulthuan's Cooperation would be nice, but we have the Grey Lords over here in the Old World and we can extrapolate from the qualities they possess; that is to say that the Ulthuan solution is probably high magic because that's the standard for their good mages, and it's probably very complex because there are no apprentice high mages.
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That's not how the Leylines that Ulthuan has work, or how the waystones in general work. They were designed to be deployed across several continents. They needed to be simple to produce because there were not that many archmages. The complex parts of the Waystone are the storage and orbital mechanism. The leylines are a simple matter of using a keyphrase at a Waystone to tell it where there is another Waystone, waiting to be connected. Using that it forms a new leyline in that direction. That is by far the easiest and cheapest way of connecting waystones.

Not to mention the other possibilities with cooperation. You could get Ulthuan's help with nexuses. I imagine Ulthuan also has a complete map of the Waystone Network somewhere. That would save Mathilde the AP for mapping further nexuses. The Badlands probably is the only place in the world where if there are uncorrupted nexuses, they are certainly not working at all so they can be taken apart entirely without damning that part of the world to Chaos.

Boney said:
"I assume among the keyphrases Teclis didn't share with us, there's one to point the network towards a new Waystone and let it do the work. I don't suppose Laurelorn has that information?"
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BurnNote said:
I'm in favor of Books, because BOOK but it's actually also beneficial for Kislev. Like, let's leave aside the presevation of knowledge in the face of the coming catastrophe. That's not a small thing, but it only helps in the aftermath.

But there's another way it helps: Because a whole bunch of dudes will be coming over with their dwarven coins, and they'll be spending it on Kislev food, Kiselv entertainment, and being at least somewhat tied to the EIC (since they're from one of the EIC bastions and used to buying from the EIC) it can at least encourage some ties (I want to emphasises that this will be minor and probably not show up. I'm not saying we'll get to eat the Greater Economic Ties cake too. I'm just saying it'll create ties by simple virtue of young people boinking if nothing else). It's a way to get some money into their economy, and I personally think it's also a delightfully sneaky way of arranging things so our friends help each other. I feel like that's a very Mathilde thing to do.
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It is just a natural side effect of the BOOK Industrial Complex.
 
Aule said:
Can we ask Boris for the unofficial practice of magic capable boys fleeing to Colleges to be made official? With a promise to not let them touch ice magic of course, not that Colleges even know how. Or do you think it's a bad idea?
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The black caravans are a dreaded sight in Kislyv. They are as mysterious as they are feared. They trade nothing. Their arrival in your village heralds stern faced men in black robes who examine all men and boys within the village. Most are left alone. Few are taken. None but the Tzar knows the ultimate fate of those who disappear into those black carriages.
 
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picklepikkl said:
While Marienburg is a tempting problem to solve with an Ulthuan-shaped hammer, the canal is done and the new status is quo.
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The Canal, which we haven't heard anything about? Which doesn't actually let us put a navy on the Sea of Claws to repel Norscan fleets? Which doesn't actually grant us access to the vast majority of our own coast line?

The merest possibility of a release from Marienburg's pressure might have sent them into a tizzy, but if it were an acceptable end to the issue then Marienburg wouldn't be an option equal in magnitude to the research of Ulthuan, nor would every member of the project be willing to accept the Matter of Marienburg in return for granting Ulthuan's desires.

Marienburg is a huge and international issue that has not been resolved.
 
[ ] [BLOOD] Empire
-[ ] A new Great War is on the horizon. He shall make preparing for that war a priority of his rule, and should the Empire call for aid, Kislev will answer.

Thought?
 
MrHobbit said:
That's not how the Leylines that Ulthuan has work, or how the waystones in general work. They were designed to be deployed across several continents. They needed to be simple to produce because there were not that many archmages. The complex parts of the Waystone are the storage and orbital mechanism. The leylines are a simple matter of using a keyphrase at a Waystone to tell it where there is another Waystone, waiting to be connected. Using that it forms a new leyline in that direction. That is by far the easiest and cheapest way of connecting waystones.

Not to mention the other possibilities with cooperation. You could get Ulthuan's help with nexuses. I imagine Ulthuan also has a complete map of the Waystone Network somewhere. That would save Mathilde the AP for mapping further nexuses. The Badlands probably is the only place in the world where if there are uncorrupted nexuses, they are certainly not working at all so they can be taken apart entirely without damning that part of the world to Chaos.
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That's something I've been wondering: shouldn't there be some kind of anchor point or something in the individual Waystones? Something for the network to hook into and communicate through. The leylines themselves I can sort of see how they can be established, but the whole thing where you can talk to them (limited as it is to certain phrases) and the runes flash red if you annoy Mr. Vortex too much, seems to come out of nowhere.
 
I'm tempted to vote Payday for the Ulthuan thing. We've been complaining for a while now that the project members haven't actually received any major reward for their participation yet, and I'm sure the Karaz Ankor, Kislev, and Laurelorn would love to extract whatever blood they can squeeze from a floating doughnut shaped stone.

That also leaves us with the Empire's price, which could be anything. BÖÖK, for example, or perhaps have Teclis return to the Empire. A second Elfcation for Mathilde at the White Tower. Or maybe an ironclad promise that the next time an Everchosen rolls into town, Ulthuan would send more than three people.

Or we could make the Empire's price the leyline passwords—it wouldn't be the same as full collaboration, we'd just get the passwords and nothing else, but it's a possibility.

We've got lots of options here, and I like the idea of letting our allies fill their pockets at the same time.
 
Romv said:
That's something I've been wondering: shouldn't there be some kind of anchor point or something in the individual Waystones? Something for the network to hook into and communicate through. The leylines themselves I can sort of see how they can be established, but the whole thing where you can talk to them (limited as it is to certain phrases) and the runes flash red if you annoy Mr. Vortex too much, seems to come out of nowhere.
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Dunno. I assume it's something related to Caledor and the leylines themselves. There was a large portion of the Waystone Network that Ulthuan didn't build, but rather built upon. I assumed it was just a network thing. It is possible that it needs some enchantment, but the enchantment isn't going to be exceedingly difficult to make. The waystones were mass deployed across several continents.

That reminds me.

Boney said:
"Lords Skathrai and Yngra worked together on an orbital mechanism," he says, tapping on a stack of notes in what looks like an Anoqeyån-based shorthand. "They both have a long history of developing things for military use, so they know the importance of keeping mechanisms simple for widespread deployment." He slides over a set of thaumaturgic schematics towards you and you frown down at them. Sure enough, you're pretty sure that creating the enchantment detailed here would be within the capabilities of even most human enchanters, but that doesn't mean you understand how it works - it's all elegant interweavings and interdependent and recursively self-referential crosshatchings.

"Meanwhile, Lord Elrithish and I," Hatalath continues, "have reverse-engineered and replicated the original storage mechanisms - though I very much doubt we've recreated the way they were originally made. Even by the standards of that time, this would be a nightmare to have to create in any substantial number."
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I was surprised that the first method could be without High Magic. The fact that any human enchanter can do it suggests that it can be done with any of the individual winds. I guess Jovi might have discovered an analogous concept with his Hysh cantrips?

The storage mechanism, however, is what creates the Dhar to my understanding. Is that enchantment High Magic?
 
I've been swayed to the Fuck Marienburg side.

Another argument for it is, it will be far more satisfying for all parties involved to have solved the issue AND THEN made Ulthuan ask for the product.

One of the issues is that the other partners don't see much benefit from this arrangement, but I feel like the Dwarves, and Wood Elves can shake hands together and say Fuck the High Elves.

On top of that, with our new probably less time-consuming and expensive method, we could start selling the product to the Ultuthuani for great economic benefits for the countries involved.
 
Would establishing a Kislev branch of the Colleges be a viable possibility? If men are culturally barred from learning Magic in Kislev anyway half of their recruits could be sent south to the Empire to compensate our side for the effort and a fully functional magical academia would be very helpful for them holding the line against Chaos.

Formalizing the border, signing peace treaties setting minor disputes etc so we aren't as concerned about 'Kislev invading the Empire with Wizards' as a likely possibility could be part of the request if the Tzar is getting something concrete out of the concession.

pucflek said:
Trying to get non-Dawi extranational support for electing an Emperor seems to me to be one of the most politically suicidal and self-defeating avenues possible.
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Fixed that for you. If the High King showed up at the Electoral meet and glared or grunted approval at a candidate I think that's legal under Sigmarite law.
 
@Boney how about this:
[ ] [BLOOD] Personal (specify what)
-[ ] Introduce him to your dearest friend, Ranald. There are plenty of things that skulk in the dark, and you'd prefer his support to ensure that the things skulking in his dark places are at least human and loyal to humanity, and not cultists, vampires or rats. Introduce him to Ranald as you know him: as a God who is good to those who work for the good of all and one of the best to keep the shadows empty of darker things. For who better to spot tricksters and charlatans and the false faces of the Enemy, then those talented and blessed in those arts, who live in those same shadows?
 
Boney said:
[ ] [ULTHUAN] Cooperation
Ask for Ulthuan to supply information to further the Waystone Project, most notably the method of connecting new Waystones to the existing network.
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Honestly, I can't imagine voting for anything else.

Yes, resolving Marienburg would be nice, but that's something that we can theoretically accomplish by other means and other pressures.

Getting the ability to actually directly hook up new Waystones to the network? Getting leylines so we aren't restricted to only putting up new Waystones on rivers?

Previously the best method that anybody came up with if Ulthuan couldn't be negotiated with was trying to get those secrets from Malekith and Morathi.

And instead it's right here! We can just vote for it!
 
primemountain said:
@Boney how about this:
[ ] [BLOOD] Personal (specify what)
-[ ] Introduce him to your dearest friend, Ranald. There are plenty of things that skulk in the dark, and you'd prefer his support to ensure that the things skulking in his dark places are at least human and loyal to humanity, and not cultists, vampires or rats. Introduce him to Ranald as you know him: as a God who is good to those who work for the good of all and one of the best to keep the shadows empty of darker things. For who better to spot tricksters and charlatans and the false faces of the Enemy, then those talented and blessed in those arts, who live in those same shadows?
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You might want to be a bit more explicit about what you're trying to achieve here. 'Introduce him to' could be read as at least four different intended outcomes.
 
Aule said:
Can we ask Boris for the unofficial practice of magic capable boys fleeing to Colleges to be made official? With a promise to not let them touch ice magic of course, not that Colleges even know how. Or do you think it's a bad idea?
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I'm not sure I'll vote for it, but feel like it should actually be put into a vote format for people to consider.
[ ] [BLOOD] Boys for the Colleges
-[ ] Kislev will sign a treaty with the Colleges, formalizing the process of sending magic capable men to them with all related expenses paid by Kislev, and the colleges in return agreeing to station a small number of (women) battle mages in Kislev to assist in national defense.

(I am generally of the mind that the best way of disguising the reason for bigger geopolitical decisions being made as payment is to just make them normal treaties that might be signed anyway, but with the specific numbers being highly favorable to the empire if one gets into the weeds. If anyone asks, Boris just made one moderately bad deal when he was approached shortly after the coronation.)

storryeater said:
Hmmmmmmmm. True, I guess. But there may be other ways to ask for nothing but politely. Although I cannot think of any right now. Except maybe from asking him to back the Waystone project.
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IMO, it's basically this:
Silver719 said:
[ ] [BLOOD] Empire
-[ ] A new Great War is on the horizon. He shall make preparing for that war a priority of his rule, and should the Empire call for aid, Kislev will answer.

Thought?
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Ask him to do the thing he's already doing, but add the caveat "If Kislev lucks out and the everchosen just bypasses it completely you still have to help the rest of us out."
 
I admit I don't have the best understanding of the project's lore but at the risk of being wrong Ultuan is using the power from the waystone network to support their magic right? If they're pissy about losing their magic supply over us starting to use it ourselves then could we get them to commit to a military campaign to claim more magically tainted land, say Troll Country or Norsca, on the agreement that they have the 'magic drilling rights' to the land?
 
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