To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[MTB]

The problem with the "Gun At The Head of The Universe" scenario is that, presented with an existential threat, people will go nuts to subvert it. Prepare for cloaked first-strike ships to orbit all your suns, the Lecarre/SFI/Tal'Shiar Man From UNCLE teamup series to turn everyone, your entire communications system to go down on a regular basis, etc.

Click to shrink...

Was there dust on the 'ultra-confidential: in case of realized existential threat, perform the following high-warp manoever while clipping the corona of a sun' procedure? Because that dust will be cleaned away, and the procedure filed under 'standard response for existential thread' in any explorer computer core ...

I really hope the Licori back down on this.

Click to shrink...

North Korea - or you could put all your resources to finalize the weapon because then no-one would dare attack you.

 

[SakSak]

@Kaizuki
Instead of thinking of them as battle rounds, imagine the battle like this:

The Federation fleet warps in and gets the jump on the Sydraxians. They do a fair chunk of damage in the opening salvos.
The Sydraxian commander orders evasive maneuvers and manages to escape the initial trap.
The Sydraxian commander orders a torpedo barrage. The Federation must evade, but aren't as successful and their ships get hit several times.
The Challorn reports damage and begins to withdraw.
The Exeter covers the Challorn's retreat by maneuvering between the enemy ships. Despite this, the Challorn is hit several more times.
The Sydraxians overcommit to pursuing the Challorn and open themselves up to full broadsides from Exeter.
The Exeter carves swathes in both Sydraxian ships and they turn tail and run.


Or in terms of the battle engine, the quantity of damage a ship can output starts to go down immediately as it starts to lose hull. So at turn 49 when the Challorn lost shields, our damage output should start to decline rapidly.

Click to shrink...

I think their point was more to the effect that the Federation vessels did not focus fire during those 49 first turns, and if they had (by taking out one enemy vessel first and leaving the other mostly untouched), the Sydraxians would have suffered more actual damage and not just superficial "regenerated once combat is done" shield damage.

Basically: Sydraxians pummeled Challorn and mostly only Challorn until it was receiving hull damage. Meanwhile, Federation failed to do the same and instead was content as dropping enemy shields and then switching targets before doing any permanent damage.

So to use your example:

The Federation fleet warps in and gets the jump on the Sydraxians. They do a fair chunk of damage in the opening salvos but each target different vessel. Sydraxian shields are being overwhelmed, but neither vessel has a proper shield failure and suffers no actual hull damage.

 

[Iron Wolf]

We are going to really hamper the GBZ if we have to go to war with the Licori, unless we task the EC at least in part.

 

[MTB]

We are going to really hamper the GBZ if we have to go to war with the Licori, unless we task the EC at least in part.

Click to shrink...

"Council: Existential threat declared. Member state fleets are on disposal."
could happen.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

I think their point was more to the effect that the Federation vessels did not focus fire during those 49 first turns, and if they had (by taking out one enemy vessel first and leaving the other mostly untouched), the Sydraxians would have suffered more actual damage and not just superficial "regenerated once combat is done" shield damage.

Basically: Sydraxians pummeled Challorn and mostly only Challorn until it was receiving hull damage. Meanwhile, Federation failed to do the same and instead was content as dropping enemy shields and then switching targets before doing any permanent damage.

Click to shrink...

If you want to complain about variance then we'll be here complaining after half the battles. More to the point, get us an Offensive Doctrine team and we can start picking up focus fire tech. Otherwise, you're complaining about the dice, because no side should be focus firing without an attached Doctrine, outside of blind luck.

Besides, all you have to do is modify my battle outline to include:
The Federation fleet warps in [...]. The Challorn takes point.



I don't know what the finalized versions are but here's the draft:

//===============================

//Be able to refuse fleet battles, and operate in smaller groups in enemy territory, picking off isolated ships, engaging in small-group battles, attacking undefended starbases and avoiding high-risk action as much as possible. Gain bonuses to small size engagements, and ability to decline battles.
//NB - Wolf Pack industry "core ship" will affect Explorers if FDD is Lone Ranger, or Cruisers if either other doctrine.
"Wolf Pack Doctrine" -> "Operational Tempo"; // Re-Roll attempts to avoid battle, all ships in a Wolf Pack gain +1 D
"Wolf Pack Doctrine" -> "Homefront Support"; // Discount to new design project requests for Target ship type
"Wolf Pack Doctrine" -> "Wolf Pack"; // May declare fleets of no more than 5% of your total tonnage that may attempt to bypass border zones to operate in enemy territory.
"Operational Tempo" -> "Initiative Doctrine"; // +2 to Attempts to join or decline battle, gain +2 D when attempting to escape battle
"Operational Tempo" -> "Patience"; // Reduce enemy response rolls by 3 as you attempt to pick off isolated targets
"Operational Tempo" -> "Daring Captains"; // Every ship with a point of crew rating, or Explorer Panel captain, adds additional 1% to Fleet Combat
"Homefront Support" -> "Building the Den"; // Bonus to building shipyard berths the next 500kt multiplier up from your most modern core ship
"Homefront Support" -> "Pack Logistics"; // Time that a Wolf Pack can be in enemy territory increased
"Wolf Pack" -> "Attack Pattern Alpha"; // Unlock Attack Pattern Alpha: +1 L, D when outnumbering the enemy, Wolf Packs remove enemy Target Priority
"Wolf Pack" -> "Interdiction"; // Reduce enemy income while operating in their territory
"Wolf Pack" -> "Small Unit Tactics"; // +5% Fleet Combat for Wolf Packs

//Focus your fleet power on enemy starbases and systems. Receive a combat bonus when attacking starbases, attempting to secure orbit, or defending against the same.
"Base Strike Doctrine" -> "Attack Pattern Delta"; // Improve ability to avoid by-pass borders when en route to a target
"Base Strike Doctrine" -> "Who Dares Wins"; // +5% Fleet Combat v Starbases, Planetary Defences, Unlock Target Priority: Explorers and Starbases
"Base Strike Doctrine" -> "Strong Foundations"; // +1 L, +1 H for Starbases/Outposts
"Attack Pattern Delta" -> "Coordinated Fire"; // Unlock Target Priority: Hull+HP Lost, Increase Double Damage chance
"Attack Pattern Delta" -> "Galaxy Wing"; // Unlock Galaxy Wing: Explorers more likely to be source of fire, more likely to draw fire.
"Attack Pattern Delta" -> "Steamrunner Wing"; // Unlock Steamrunner Wing: Escorts more likely to be source of fire, more likely to draw fire, gain evasion.
"Who Dares Wins" -> "The Shining Light"; // +2 to Response Rolls for defending colonies/starbases, +1 L when outnumbered or defending a base
"Who Dares Wins" -> "In Excelsis"; // Free Snakepit Project: Excelsiors re-classified as cruisers, -2 Qtr build time, -1 of each crew type required.
"Who Dares Wins" -> "Nor the Battle to the Strong"; // Explorer Corps recruitment increased, Any FYM Explorer in the fleet gives an extra +1% to combat
"Strong Foundations" -> "Starbase Push"; // All newly ratified members who do not have a Starbase get a free 8-turn Snakepit option to build one
"Strong Foundations" -> "Arsenal of Equality"; // Discount to creating new Shipyard complexes

//Concentrate your fleet for all-in battles and receive bonuses in engagements involving large forces.
"Decisive Battle Doctrine" -> "United Starfleet"; // Sharply reduced garrison levels during wartime, gain detached United Fleet "Sector"
"Decisive Battle Doctrine" -> "Sensor Pickets"; // Increase chance of bringing the enemy fleet to battle if at least half of the fleet is Escorts
"Decistive Battle Doctrine" -> "Attack Pattern Omega"; // Unlock Target Priority: Shield+Combat, Unlock Attack Pattern Omega: Explorers take Lead (more likely to fire, be fired upon)
"United Starfleet" -> "Hand in Hand"; // Member Worlds and Affiliates will contribute 25% of their fleets to the United Fleet
"United Starfleet" -> "Arsenal of Liberty"; // Discount to building new shipyard berths, Explorer build times reduced by 2 Qtrs, Academy intake increased
"Hand in Hand" -> "United Federation"; // Member Worlds and Affiliates will contribute 50% of their fleets to the United Fleet
"Sensor Pickets" -> "Torpedo Charge"; // Unlock Torpedo Charge: reduce enemy evasion, escorts on both sides more likely to fire
"Sensor Pickets" -> "Battle Bridge"; // Gain +5% combat in any engagement involving at least 20% of your fleet
"Attack Pattern Omega" -> "Feints"; // Unlock Feints: Enemy Firing Priority shifts to Escorts, Escorts gain high evasion
"Attack Pattern Omega" -> "Vanguard"; // Unlock Vanguard: Enemy Firing Priority shifts to Cruisers, Cruisers +1 L, some evasion
"Attack Pattern Omega" -> "Auxiliary to Shields"; // Unlock Auxiliary to Shields: Lose -2 D, Gain +1 L
}

Click to shrink...

Wolf Pack's tier 3 gives attack pattern which removes enemy target priority.
Base Strike's tier 2 gives target priority for capships and starbases.
Base Strike's tier 3 gives target priority for Hull+HP lost. (!)
Base Strike's tier 3 gives a tactic that lets either capships or frigates fire more often and draw more fire.
Decisive Battle's tier 2 gives attack pattern for target priority for L+C. (pretty useless)
Decisive Battle's tier 2 lets capships fire more. (!)
Decisive Battle's tier 3 gives a tactic which reduces enemy evasion. (!)
Decisive Battle's tier 3 gives a tactic that gives "high evasion" for frigates.
Decisive Battle's tier 3 gives two tactics that increase shields.


Beelining Attack Pattern Delta in Base Strike would serve us best in the short term. In the longer term Decisive Battle has more bonuses, plus that amazing 50% of our member fleets during wartime. However, the argument exists that we should get two Offensive Doctrine teams so that we can gobble up all those tactics that we need. In the new combat engine target priority is going to be crucial. A commander who knows when to shift to Hull+HP can win the battle in that decision alone.

 

[Leila Hann]

I suppose it's also possible that the harder you tell a mentat not to study something, the more it wants to. If people haven't been studying something, that means you can make a bigger mark in the field!

Click to shrink...

This would only be a sufficient explanation if the mentats are actually the ones in control.

Which is terrifyingly possible. Who's to say that the same super-enhanced brains that allow them to destroy stars don't also allow them to effortlessly manipulate their supposed overlords?

Superior ability. Superior ambition.

 

[SakSak]

If you want to complain about variance then we'll be here complaining after half the battles. More to the point, get us an Offensive Doctrine team and we can start picking up focus fire tech. Otherwise, you're complaining about the dice, because no side should be focus firing without an attached Doctrine.

Click to shrink...

I know.

We are so not ready for a proper war against anything approaching a peer enemy. And unfortunately, things are not looking peaceful.

 

[pheonix89]

But they were fully successful. As I showed earlier a true nova bomb would be nothing more then a suicide device; it's completely useless outside of a last strike revenge tactic.

What the Licori have here is a weapon capable of entirely an entire solar system with little fallout to locations outside the system. It's currently too slow to be a practical weapon, the Couragous had time to detect it from outside the system and approach to close range before the star burped, but if they can speed it up the Licori have the perfect genocide device. Launch a fleet of small high speed probes/suicide ships equipped with these and they can wipe out the Ked Pah or anyone else who opposes them in a matter of hours.

The Federation is right to jump to full alert and throw every diplomatic trick they have at the Licori, while preparing an appropriate military response for if that fails, to try and get them to see reason.

Click to shrink...

And then the Federation pulls out time travel and they never invented the weapon.

DON'T back the UFP into a corner, if pushed far enough they'll retcon your victories out of existence.

 

[Night]

We are going to really hamper the GBZ if we have to go to war with the Licori, unless we task the EC at least in part.

Click to shrink...

Yes, but on the other hand we might be able to commit a relatively small force if we opt to go in alongside the Gaeni and Ked Paddah rather than attempting independent operations. We could, for example, offer the Ked Paddah the services of a pair of Rennies and a half-dozen Miranda-As to assist them, rather than attempting an independent response. We know the Ked Paddah can be trusted not to act too rashly, so it's a reasonably safe investment.

 

[Kaizuki]

@Kaizuki
Instead of thinking of them as battle rounds, imagine the battle like this:

The Federation fleet warps in and gets the jump on the Sydraxians. They do a fair chunk of damage in the opening salvos.
The Sydraxian commander orders evasive maneuvers and manages to escape the initial trap.
The Sydraxian commander orders a torpedo barrage. The Federation must evade, but aren't as successful and their ships get hit several times.
The Challorn reports damage and begins to withdraw.
The Exeter covers the Challorn's retreat by maneuvering between the enemy ships. Despite this, the Challorn is hit several more times.
The Sydraxians overcommit to pursuing the Challorn and open themselves up to full broadsides from Exeter.
The Exeter carves swathes in both Sydraxian ships and they turn tail and run.


Or in terms of the battle engine, the quantity of damage a ship can output starts to go down immediately as it starts to lose hull. So at turn 49 when the Challorn lost shields, our damage output should start to decline rapidly.

Click to shrink...

@SynchronizedWritersBlock I don't know if you misread what I posted or what, but it seemed to me that I specifically said

It is standard practice for captains in a small engagement to attempt to engage in focused fire for the purpose of achieving an optimal result -- the removal of a single ship's shields so that damage can be dealt to its actual combat capabilities is vastly more important than simply lowering the shields of all enemies whenever possible.

Click to shrink...

Which I do hope is compatible with what you're trying to say because it looks to me like I said what you're trying to tell me in my post. :/ I'm actually condemning the UFP captains for not actively trying to breach shields on a specific target so as to damage its combat rating ("focus fire") whereas the Sydraxians clearly engaged in behavior and came out well ahead in the aftermath of the battle because of it.

In other news, I went back and checked the bigger GBZ fight, and got inconclusive results:

Hasque 0 -- 14 times by 201 / 42 by end
Hasque 1 -- 23 times by 201 / 42 by end
Hasque 2 -- 19 times by 201 / 35 by end
Hasque 3 -- 16 times by 201 / 25 by end
Kalindrax 0 -- 22 times by 201 / 37 by end
Kalindrax 1 -- 15 times by 201 / 31 by end

Kumari -- 12 times by 201 / 23 by end
Endurance -- 23 times by 201 / 50 by end
Korolev -- 13 times by 201 / 22 by end
Republic -- 15 times by 201 / 30 by end
Shield -- 20 times by 201 / 38 by end
Fidelity -- 10 times by 201 / 24 by end

The disparity appears to be much greater on the sydraxian end -- but it's possible that that's simply the Federation destroying / driving off enemy ships in an average number of shots. I don't have the time to go for a more in-depth look right now. However I do think we can attribute the catastrophic damage taken by the Endurance to well-executed Sydraxian focused fire... But I'd need, again, data on times of shield breaches and hull damages to figure out whether the UFP was failing to focus fire.

Two battles a good data plot do not determine.

 

[random_npc]

North Korea - or you could put all your resources to finalize the weapon because then no-one would dare attack you.

Click to shrink...

they are not north Korea. their issue is that they have a weak central government, and the pissing contest de jure their nobles use is really destructive. There is no hard edge of fanaticism, just a bunch of greedy shortsighted Nobel houses willing to let there pet mad scientists ran rampant for the sake of a political edge. They might try something stupid, but at the end of the day they are mostly sane.

 

[MTB]

Superior ability. Superior ambition.

Click to shrink...

Khan, Licori variant.

 

[Kaizuki]

If you want to complain about variance then we'll be here complaining after half the battles. More to the point, get us an Offensive Doctrine team and we can start picking up focus fire tech. Otherwise, you're complaining about the dice, because no side should be focus firing without an attached Doctrine, outside of blind luck.

Besides, all you have to do is modify my battle outline to include:
The Federation fleet warps in [...]. The Challorn takes point.



I don't know what the finalized versions are but here's the draft:


Wolf Pack's tier 3 gives attack pattern which removes enemy target priority.
Base Strike's tier 2 gives target priority for capships and starbases.
Base Strike's tier 3 gives target priority for Hull+HP lost. (!)
Base Strike's tier 3 gives a tactic that lets either capships or frigates fire more often and draw more fire.
Decisive Battle's tier 2 gives attack pattern for target priority for L+C. (pretty useless)
Decisive Battle's tier 2 lets capships fire more. (!)
Decisive Battle's tier 3 gives a tactic which reduces enemy evasion. (!)
Decisive Battle's tier 3 gives a tactic that gives "high evasion" for frigates.
Decisive Battle's tier 3 gives two tactics that increase shields.


Beelining Attack Pattern Delta in Base Strike would serve us best in the short term. In the longer term Decisive Battle has more bonuses, plus that amazing 50% of our member fleets during wartime. However, the argument exists that we should get two Offensive Doctrine teams so that we can gobble up all those tactics that we need. In the new combat engine target priority is going to be crucial. A commander who knows when to shift to Hull+HP can win the battle in that decision alone.

Click to shrink...

It would seem to me that if anything this correlates with what I am saying. I rather doubt roleplay and fluff factor into the combat engine, but "target priority" certainly could/would, and if the Sydraxians already have a doctrine which gives them target priority it would absolutely potentially be a causal mechanism that would produce the results I'm pointing to.

 

[aeqnai]

Trilithium, tekosite, protomatter. A casing built to withstand the stresses of delivering its payload to the stellar core. A torpedo tube capable of ejecting the payload at sufficient speed. A ship capable of approaching the stellar corona (escape function optional).

These are the ingredients needed to create a proper stellar explosion, far stronger than what the Licori have thus far demonstrated. They don't know this, but if left to their own devices they may find out. And when they do, they will use that knowledge.

 

[Iron Wolf]

This would only be a sufficient explanation if the mentats are actually the ones in control.

Which is terrifyingly possible. Who's to say that the same super-enhanced brains that allow them to destroy stars don't also allow them to effortlessly manipulate their supposed overlords?

Superior ability. Superior ambition.

Click to shrink...

Good point. I should have made it clearer that I'm operating under the assumption the Licori can't control Mentats - or won't control them. I'm not sure which is worse. but it has the same end effect: we got mobile brains who want to blow up stars running around.

 

[chriswriter90]

This would only be a sufficient explanation if the mentats are actually the ones in control.

Which is terrifyingly possible. Who's to say that the same super-enhanced brains that allow them to destroy stars don't also allow them to effortlessly manipulate their supposed overlords?

Superior ability. Superior ambition.

Click to shrink...

Good point. I should have made it clearer that I'm operating under the assumption the Licori can't control Mentats - or won't control them. I'm not sure which is worse. but it has the same end effect: we got mobile brains who want to blow up stars running around.

Click to shrink...

I can buy it.

Yes, but on the other hand we might be able to commit a relatively small force if we opt to go in alongside the Gaeni and Ked Paddah rather than attempting independent operations. We could, for example, offer the Ked Paddah the services of a pair of Rennies and a half-dozen Miranda-As to assist them, rather than attempting an independent response. We know the Ked Paddah can be trusted not to act too rashly, so it's a reasonably safe investment.

Click to shrink...

I'm down for that. I would also suggest bringing in the Romulans in on the action.

Trilithium, tekosite, protomatter. A casing built to withstand the stresses of delivering its payload to the stellar core. A torpedo tube capable of ejecting the payload at sufficient speed. A ship capable of approaching the stellar corona (escape function optional).

These are the ingredients needed to create a proper stellar explosion, far stronger than what the Licori have thus far demonstrated. They don't know this, but if left to their own devices they may find out. And when they do, they will use that knowledge.

Click to shrink...

And we do not want that.

 

[MTB]

Good point. I should have made it clearer that I'm operating under the assumption the Licori can't control Mentats - or won't control them. I'm not sure which is worse. but it has the same end effect: we got mobile brains who want to blow up stars running around.

Click to shrink...

Or worse 'wonder if that would work ...' - regardless of 'that'. Like discovering that vacuum energy does not denote the lowest possible state and conducting an experiment that induces that state.

 

[Briefvoice]

Yes, but on the other hand we might be able to commit a relatively small force if we opt to go in alongside the Gaeni and Ked Paddah rather than attempting independent operations. We could, for example, offer the Ked Paddah the services of a pair of Rennies and a half-dozen Miranda-As to assist them, rather than attempting an independent response. We know the Ked Paddah can be trusted not to act too rashly, so it's a reasonably safe investment.

Click to shrink...

We don't have "a pair of Rennies". We have one. And literally all of our Miranda-As are in the GBZ, on the other side of Federation space.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

It would seem to me that if anything this correlates with what I am saying. I rather doubt roleplay and fluff factor into the combat engine, but "target priority" certainly could/would, and if the Sydraxians already have a doctrine which gives them target priority it would absolutely potentially be a causal mechanism that would produce the results I'm pointing to.

Click to shrink...

It's possible but you would have to determine what their priority is. Note that there is no straight lock-on tech and that such a tech would not make sense in any implementation for balance purposes. So you look at ship class or rating, but I don't see any consistency there.

For example, that the Endurance lost shields well before the Kumari was even at low shields can only be assigned to blind luck. Or that the ships that got pasted in the Battle of Deva were of all three ship types? Doesn't make sense as a target priority. Moreover, in the other battle logs we have as samples I don't see evidence of target priorities.


More to the point, given that we don't have the research on it, I would say that criticising the Captains for not focusing fire is not their failure. Not would it be accurate to say it would be a focus of the Academy curriculum. Perhaps they know it's better academically but don't have training or doctrine on putting it into practice. And we will never have focus fire on the scale you suggested outside of random variance.

 

[Glassware]

War with the Licori is absolutely a point where I'd advocate for sending in the Explorer Corps as the tip of the spear. We need not only our best combatants but our best scientists to counter whatever insane nonsense the Mentats come up with.

We also need to push research into the Mentat condition itself. Can it be cured? Can it be prevented from being administered easily?

 

[Erandil]

I am pretty sure that is has been already said but I have to say that I am a bit surprised by how aggressive the Fed Council was this turn. It seems at odds with previous behaviour (the Caitans conflict as well as the early clashes with the Cardassians) and seems to be supremely ill-timed. Plus I not only doubt the intelligence in threatening a civilization of mad scientists with superior force (in my opinion it will only lead to them going truly off the rails since they have nothing to loose or, worse, try ally with the Cardassians), especially since as far as I know we have not yet established how extensive their control over the mentats actually is (because once again I really think that making a whole civilization liable for the actions of all its people is a dangerous (and stupid) idea)...

I am also a bit unhappy about how nonchalant our admiral reacts to those less than optimal fights and how sure she feels of our/her superiority when we have such a massive lack of intelligence regarding her area of operation... Being aggressive is nice but I starting to think that she is a bit blind to the dangers it posses.

 

[ClawClawBite]

It would seem to me that if anything this correlates with what I am saying. I rather doubt roleplay and fluff factor into the combat engine, but "target priority" certainly could/would, and if the Sydraxians already have a doctrine which gives them target priority it would absolutely potentially be a causal mechanism that would produce the results I'm pointing to.

Click to shrink...

They may have unlocked a tactic in their research tree that lets them focus fire.

We have not.

Ships don't fight like a wall of Battle.

Punishing captains for something they can not do does not make sense.

 

[Simon_Jester]

ON MILITARIZATION

Also.

[+1 Militarisation Point]

Click to shrink...

Did I contribute to us earning that? If not, who did? How can we as a collective group actually avoid having this happen again in the future? Are you punishing us as a whole for the actions of one person? Or for a diffuse action taken by many people?

But somehow I doubt Militarization points are going to deter a small group of vocal idiots from being, well, vocal. They're just going to keep jabbering on about how we need to be able to use bioweapons and be tough players making tough decisions and using the only thing these barbarians understand.

Click to shrink...

Quite frankly... yes. Threatening the group with collective punishment, over the actions of a small number of people whom they have no power to restrain, only works if you're trying to enforce your will by creating collective disapproval of their actions.

But our would-be Hard Posters Making Hard Decisions are already massively unpopular here! So they have nothing to lose by making themselves even more unpopular by netting us militarization points. Oneiros would do better to seek threadbans for them.

There is an old saying "prepare for the worst, hope for the best." All individuals here are merely thinking up options in the worst case scenario comes to pass.

Click to shrink...

ThoughtMaster, to be quite blunt, every one of your posts along these lines has this gloating, breathless tone of "this is what I'd like to do to people if I had an excuse." And then this mock-pious justification of "oh, I'm just talking about worst case scenarios." No, you're not, you're really not. You're not thinking up options for worst case scenarios. You are conspicuously fantasizing about worst case scenarios, and coming up with ghastly things to do under those circumstances.

You're not looking for a secret weapon, for an ace in the hole. You're looking for an excuse.

We can tell you're doing it. It's extremely unwelcome. Please stop.

He's not actually breaking any rules to justify a threadban, though, is he?

Click to shrink...

We HAVE rules against being disruptive, and this isn't the first time. If that doesn't cover what he's been doing with his 'make the rubble bounce' fantasies, I don't even know what Rule 4 is for anymore.

If it's other people too, I'd like to see a bit more detail on what went wrong and why, for the sake of openness.

---

ON RESEARCH

I am really down on boosts. BOO BOOSTS. I don't want to boost anything ever again, and any statement that "we need X urgently" should not be regarded as a prod to use the poisoned fruit of the boost. A boost is just a sign we have too few tech teams.

Click to shrink...

I'd argue a counterpoint.

One, we should never have more teams than we can reasonably foresee being able to operate every year, because new teams are so expensive. Wasting 20pp on something we can only use half the time is arguably more counterproductive than wasting a bunch of research points.

Two, we will sometimes encounter windfalls of research points we aren't equipped to use. At which point we can either spend years piling up surplus research points until we finally have enough to justify operating a new team for the next few decades... or we can spend them on boosts. The boosts may be less efficient, but they have the advantage of being something we can switch on and off.

---

ON FIGHTING THE LICORI, AS DISTINCT FROM THE HORRIBLE STUFF

Even if you want an aggresssive solution to the Licori, there is no need to respond to their superweapons with superweapons of our own. The Kar Peddah were said to be kicking the Licori's hind ends in conventional battles, and that the occasional successful act of weaponized SCIENCE! is what's holding the Kar Peddah at bay. Starfleet would not need to use exotic WMD to end the conflict, photon torpedoes would be more than enough.

Click to shrink...

Agreed.

Hm. You know, I'm actually looking forward to reading the accounts of the Licori's senior admiralty. It might wind up reading a lot like the famous story Superiority, by Arthur C. Clarke.

Wut? The GBZ sitch is a cabinet war - sure, military assets are at stake, but nothing else is. The Licori situation has lunatics trying to start artificial supernovas. It's an existential threat in the making.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but it's also pretty easy to squash. Starfleet doesn't need to do a long term military buildup to respond to the Licori menace. We just need to say very loudly. "STOP THAT, YOU."

---

ON FIGHTING THE SYDRAXIANS

Not sure what Ainsworth is smoking, because this is a defeat. We have one ship slightly damaged, and one ship severely damaged. They have two ships slightly damaged. Its not even an attritional victory, because the damage to the Sydraxian ships will probably not require more than a month or two of repairs, tops. I guess this is why the Conniebee is just a stopgap cruiser; it really is showing its limitations as a combatant.

Click to shrink...

If she's planning to act very fast, it's an attritional victory simply because the Sydraxian squadron is so small that having two of their ships out of action even for a very short time is crippling. However, that is only true if she's already got a plan to launch an offensive in the next month or so- presumably one she'd already planned.

Also, the ConnieBee is, yes, only able to tie against the Jaldun and the Kalindrax. On the other hand, a Rennie wouldn't have done much better in the same situation. Renaissance would have done the same amount of damage to the enemy (just enough to scratch their hulls before they scream in terror and run away). The only difference is that Renaissance would have been at 5/50 Shields instead of 25/30 Hull, and frankly that's not a very big difference.

As far as I can tell, we just plain do not have and cannot build a cruiser capable of overmatching the Kalindrax, which is unsurprising given that the Sydraxians' cruisers are like 50% bigger than ours and built with a broadly comparable tech base.

If you think Exeter's performance was unimpressive, imagine how we'd be doing if we'd opted to just build the Constellation-A back in 2307 or so when we had the decision to pursue the ConnieBee program. We'd have refit Challorn (stat 5/3/3) and a generic Constellation-A (stat 4/2/2) instead of 5/3/4 and 4/3/3. We'd probably have lost in the sense of "forced to retreat" not just in the sense of "took more damage."

TL;DR:

-1 E

Moderate damage to Exeter, Heavy damage to Challorn (including -1 E), minor damage to Kalindrax and Hasque

Click to shrink...

I'd class the damage to Exeter as light (less than 25%, probably field-repairable).

By the numbers we should have that engagement by a fair margin.

Click to shrink...

Eh, dunno. Looking at Combat/Hull/Shields, we had a 5/3/4 and a 4/3/3 against a 4/4/5 and a 3/2/3. That's close enough to a tie that I'd count it as being within the margin of error. A Constitution-B really is at best tied against a Kalindrax, and Challorn isn't THAT much better than a Hasque.

To reduce that to narrative terms...

The big killer was that early in the battle (first 40 turns) Challorn got STUPIDLY unlucky (like seriously, "5% chance of this happening to us" unlucky) and took 14 hits out of the first 20 shots the Sydraxians fired. Only six went to Exeter. That knocked down the Constellation's shields and resulted in Challorn suffering severe damage and having to retreat.

After which point Exeter hulked the hell out and went all Way of the Elephant on the enemy. Exeter's counterattack burned down both Sydraxian ships' shields, causing them to run screaming in terror because apparently for SOME reason their new rules of engagement are "don't risk letting the Federation damage any more of our ships seriously they are way too on fire as it is."

On which note...

Enterprise, with pom-poms:

"YEAH YOU GO, EXETER! WOOO! WE LOVE YOU!"

Seems aside from Enterprise that one time and the S'harien we have some awful luck for the combat logs.

Also I love how the Challorn was knocking on heaven's door and only lost one E, while MEANWHILE with the Endurance and the Saratoga...

Challorn continues the trend of geting its crew through, mostly.

Click to shrink...

Leslie:

"Iiiii'll just be handling citations for this year's Matthews-Rayburn Award. Hmm... Challorn or Courageous. Hmm..."

Unrelated,in the original log ships continued firing after they had successfully retreated.

Click to shrink...

Thaaat should probably be looked into, yeah.

Starfleet Report On The Role Of Criminal Incompetence In Recent GBZ Engagement

In the course of going over the battle logs from the recent GBZ engagement, the following was discovered:

----------------------------------------------------------

> In the first 49 turns the Exeter was fired on 8 times. In 111 turns the Exeter was fired on 35 times (+27). In the first 49 turns the Challorn was fired on 15 times, in 111 was fired on 23 times (+8).

> In the first 49 turns the Kalindrax was fired on 14 times. In 111 turns the Kalindrax was fired on 27 times (+13). In the first 49 turns the Hasque was fired on 13 times, in 111 was fired on 27 times (+14).

Click to shrink...

You appear to be ignoring the fact that the Challorn physically fled the battle around Turn 70, and was therefore unable to be targeted thereafter. Yes, the Challorn took a lot more hits in this battle than the Exeter did. We don't know why. It's probably bad luck, probably.

It is standard practice for captains in a small engagement to attempt to engage in focused fire for the purpose of achieving an optimal result -- the removal of a single ship's shields so that damage can be dealt to its actual combat capabilities is vastly more important than simply lowering the shields of all enemies whenever possible. It is the opinion of this report that this practice was engaged in solely by the Sydraxian parties in this engagement, in a demonstration of incredible incompetence by the Federation captains involved. This report opines that if the Federation captains involved in the battle had made any attempt to engage in basic intelligent combat maneuvers, i.e. focused fire, then the Federation forces involved would have potentially won the engagement decisively, or at the very least not suffered such a ridiculous upset in a battle where they should have been slightly advantaged.

Click to shrink...

So far as we know, the combat engine does not allow focused fire. If it does, there is literally NO reference to any such capability in the tech tree, or anywhere.

You're looking at the outcome of a series of coin flips and trying to attribute causation to it. Does Challorn get hit, or Exeter? Flip a coin. If there's a "somehow avoid being targeted" feature that Exeter used, I don't know what it could have been.

[Note that I am distinguishing between "target priority" like "shoot at their explorers first" and "focus fire" like "everyone concentrate your firepower on that one ship over there!" Those are very different things and will result in very different outcomes, especially in a large battle.

---

ON A SNEK

The biggest infodump was not IC and so I don't think it was threadmarked:

I think since then I've personally retconned the monarchy being head of state as established 100 years ago [I don't know if @OneirosTheWriter has thoughts on that, it probably doesn't matter too much]. There's some more illumination in The King's Peace...

I probably should actually do a Wolfe [Or Other Person] report on them at some point, especially if they become more important.

Click to shrink...

Uh yeah. Especially since they could become important without warning at any moment. Please to be doing that.

[Does best Gretarian eyes]

 

[ctulhuslp]

War with the Licori is absolutely a point where I'd advocate for sending in the Explorer Corps as the tip of the spear. We need not only our best combatants but our best scientists to counter whatever insane nonsense the Mentats come up with.

We also need to push research into the Mentat condition itself. Can it be cured? Can it be prevented from being administered easily?

Click to shrink...

Do we have any spare Oberth? Because for all we know they can be of use against this Licori thisness.

 

[Leila Hann]

Imagine this.

A civilization creates beings who are incredibly intelligent, but also very short lived, to serve the elites as inventors and problem solvers.

Since the mentats are smarter than baselines, the elites come to rely on them for more and more things. Soon, every advisor, inventor, and analyst is a mentat.

Since the elites are themselves baselines, it soon becomes clear that the key to success as an elite is to do whatever your mentats say without question.

Now. The mentats, due to their short lifespans, have a very alien set of priorities.

Because of those alien priorities, the mentats can relate much more to each other than they can to baselines.

Mentats start doing each other favors. A network emerges. The favors start to include giving certain bits of "advice" to certain nobles.

The entire civilization becomes ruled by a secret society of crazed, reckless mutants who do not care about the longterm - or even short term, really - survival of that civilization.


Regardless of whether or not this is what Oneiros has in mind, its a pretty compelling dystopian scifi premise. And very much in the spirit of old school Trek, for that matter.