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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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OneirosTheWriter said:
The original concept for the Comet post included a race with a Goshawnar Warhawk, but there simply wasn't a feasible way of having one on hand.
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Well, we'd surely want to prototype the Comet and test it before racing it.

We can now issue the challenge. In authentic Goshawnar style.

"U think u have fast ship. U ship slo. Speed-fite us."

uju32 said:
I am, yes.
Because the Hishmeri are not a united nation, but a group of affiliated septs. Individual septs seldom, if ever pool resources for big projects, so individual septs do asset acquisition out of internal resources. And their Brosmen slaves are forbidden space.

Under these circumstances, it would be optimal for septs to invest in smaller, more numerous ships.
Cheap, easy to replace, crew and maintain. Optimal nomad strategy. Yet we are seeing capital ships that require specialized facilities to maintain, in a departure from Hishmeri practice and known economic output.

Ergo, someone else is interfering.
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Uh, the capitals we're seeing are, as I recall, "replenishment capitals-" very large logistical support ships with (admittedly expensive) drives capable of keeping up with the fleet, but whose primary function is to carry onboard industry and support/repair other ships. Such a ship would be the cornerstone of a sept fleet- it's the thing that makes you a strong sept, capable of extended independent operations. Indeed, it may well be that the thing that defines you AS a sept in Hishmeri society is that you have access to a few, such that without it you'll eventually lose legitimacy and your component ship-clans will desert you for someone who can support and maintain their ships better.

In other words, the Hishmeri aren't amassing a fleet of battleships they'd normally be unable to afford sept-by-sept. They may not even be the things the Ittick-ka are building; the Ittick-ka may be building the heavily armed war frigates the Hishmeri favor while they continue to rely on their existing fleet of replenishment capitals, thus allowing the Hishmeri to replace attritional losses suffered against, say, us. :p

@OneirosTheWriter , @AKuz, can you correct me on this if I'm wrong in this line of speculation, given what the Federation presently knows?

As for the potential threat to Cardassia, I think you overestimate it.
Large tonnage capitals require shipyards capable of holding them for repairs and maintenance. Not many of those that nomads can lay claim to.

In any sustained military campaign, Hishmeri capital ship capability is likely to degrade as shipyard access and spare parts dry up. Collaborators like the Ittick-Ka would do their best to stay out of it, which means their shipyards close. It's the small ships, which can scatter into deepspace, be maintained at small facilities, and threaten Pact logistics and dispersed infrastructure, that are the true danger in any campaign against the Pact.

Basically, introducing capitals to some warlords also serves as a subtle form of societal sabotage.
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Are you remembering some specific piece of evidence that the Hishmeri are being gifted with a fleet of battleships, distinct from their normal fleet of war frigates supported by capital-ship-sized replenishment vessels?

This is not to say the Cardassians aren't bankrolling construction of those frigates, mind you- though it's worth remembering that once upon a time the Cardassians were resource-limited, and while they've no doubt been enriched by the capture of Bajor and the Chyrstovians since then, that only carries them so far...
 
On a somewhat grim note, I'll chime in to say the Hishmeri do have something the Ittick-Ka will trade for: Slaves. Cardassian funding is a good idea, but we don't know how the Ittick-Ka value slave trading. Or how many slaves the Hishmeri have.

We do have some info that implies the Hishmeri value br much more than sr, so it's possible their ships are also sr light and therefore they might have a relative excess of sr.
 
Derpmind said:
On a somewhat grim note, I'll chime in to say the Hishmeri do have something the Ittick-Ka will trade for: Slaves. Cardassian funding is a good idea, but we don't know how the Ittick-Ka value slave trading. Or how many slaves the Hishmeri have.
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Given that the Hishmeri don't actually take that many slaves at a time, I find it kind of hard to believe that they can sell enough slaves to buy starships.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Given that the Hishmeri don't actually take that many slaves at a time, I find it kind of hard to believe that they can sell enough slaves to buy starships.
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Slave buyer: Anything good this run?
Slaver: Ah yes! In this hold I've got a dozen {species name}. All upper percentile on intelligence and attractiveness! Fully conditioned, spayed and control chipped. Supply on these guys is limited, some kind of nuclear war on their home world, so I cannot ask for less than a {insert appropriate pricing}.
{insert haggling}
Slaver walks away with enough for a deposit on a second hand frigate ...
 
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Slaves are nowhere near as valuable as starships. You would need massive numbers of them, and interstellar shipping is damn expensive.
 
Whelp. This is not an argument I wanted to start. In hindsight, I shouldn't have brought it up at all. Sorry, everyone.
 
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Goat said:
Depends on what they are used for.

Disposable labor force - yep cheap.

Limited supply status symbol, worth a lot more ...
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Yes, but a limited supply status symbol's value tends to be capped at what the elite can afford to pay to play their status games. Are the Ittick-ka so wealthy that the cost of a frigate's worth of raw materials is something that numerous powerful individuals in their society can scrape up as payment for a status symbol? Because the Federation certainly doesn't seem to be. The Klingons might be, but the only frigates you could buy from them would be weak-ass Birds of Prey.

These ships are proportionately as expensive as, say, World War One dreadnoughts. Countries can buy them, but they can't buy them purely through catering in low-volume luxury goods to a handful of elites.

There has to be some kind of large scale flow of economic goods relevant to the function of the economy itself to support a large scale shipbuilding program.

Leila Hann said:
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Comet, buzzing happily

"Thank you."
 
I still don't really get how slavery is still profitable. modern manufacturing has largely made mass use of unskilled labor marginal, it weird to see that reverse in the future. Not to mention, someone who was abducted into slavery is not exactly going to be motivated. I can get why you'd raid for slaves as luxuries, but for industrial purposes is just weird.

"ok, we kidnapped a few hundred thousand dudes, now we just need to force them each through a six year course on how to be useful. then we need to trust them with at least mildly unsupervised access to industrial machinery."

not to mention raiding for slaves is just werid. the hismar have a very effective slave race already, why do they want more slaves who aren't biologically incapable of violence? how on earth is raiding for a few thousand slaves worth anything? to the point where nations put up with having thousands of beings who would kill them all given the opportunity around their industrial centers?
 
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random_npc said:
I still don't really get how slavery is still profitable. modern manufacturing has largely made mass use of unskilled labor marginal, it weird to see that reverse in the future. Not to mention, someone who was abducted into slavery is not exactly going to be motivated. I can get why you'd raid for slaves as luxuries, but for industrial purposes is just weird.

"ok, we kidnapped a few hundred thousand dudes, now we just need to force them each through a six year course on how to be useful. then we need to trust them with at least mildly unsupervised access to industrial machinery."

not to mention raiding for slaves is just werid. the hismar have a very effective slave race already, why do they want more slaves who aren't biologically incapable of violence? how on earth is raiding for a few thousand slaves worth anything? to the point where nations put up with having thousands of beings who would kill them all given the opportunity around their industrial centers?
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Eh, I continue to think that we are just misunderstanding the goal of their consequentialism. Like, they don't slave raid in order to end up with more slaves, they slave raid in order to experience slave raiding. It suits their self image of being terrifying cat pirates. I doubt the people in charge of counting stuff get to talk much in their setup, they probably just get noogies.

Like, any and all problems that don't kill them are solved by cat pirating harder. Ship malfunction? Cat Pirate a new ship. Slave rebellion? Cat pirate violence. Weird mighty peaceful neighbors? Cat pirate violence, etc. If their solution works then all is well. If it doesn't then they are dead, so who cares.
 
Walter said:
Eh, I continue to think that we are just misunderstanding the goal of their consequentialism. Like, they don't slave raid in order to end up with more slaves, they slave raid in order to experience slave raiding. It suits their self image of being terrifying cat pirates. I doubt the people in charge of counting stuff get to talk much in their setup, they probably just get noogies.

Like, any and all problems that don't kill them are solved by cat pirating harder. Ship malfunction? Cat Pirate a new ship. Slave rebellion? Cat pirate violence. Weird mighty peaceful neighbors? Cat pirate violence, etc. If their solution works then all is well. If it doesn't then they are dead, so who cares.
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I get the raiding really. its an easy way to get stuff, like, its an actual net profit to swoop down from space and cart off all the useful metals some primitives have gathered up. Even before you look at economic weirdness like gold being valuable. but the itka-ika buying slaves? how on earth is that profitable for anyone?
 
random_npc said:
I get the raiding really. its an easy way to get stuff, like, its an actual net profit to swoop down from space and cart off all the useful metals some primitives have gathered up. Even before you look at economic weirdness like gold being valuable. but the itka-ika buying slaves? how on earth is that profitable for anyone?
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Probably just that buying from the Hishmeri makes them less likely to target you. If Hishmeri are space mongols the bugs are space china?
 
Simon_Jester said:
Uh, the capitals we're seeing are, as I recall, "replenishment capitals-" very large logistical support ships with (admittedly expensive) drives capable of keeping up with the fleet, but whose primary function is to carry onboard industry and support/repair other ships. Such a ship would be the cornerstone of a sept fleet- it's the thing that makes you a strong sept, capable of extended independent operations. Indeed, it may well be that the thing that defines you AS a sept in Hishmeri society is that you have access to a few, such that without it you'll eventually lose legitimacy and your component ship-clans will desert you for someone who can support and maintain their ships better.
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There is a word for what you're describing; it's called a freighter, not a capital.
Hishmeri dedicated logistics vessels are known as the Packhorse class of fast replenishment vessels, and they can build those domestically. There's no indication they are considered a sign of legitimacy and Starfleet says they're pretty rare.
anon_user said:
The fact the Hishmeri are up here at all suggests they've brought support ships. The fact they're up here and moving consistently at high cruising speeds suggests we're dealing with a unicorn today -- or more accurately, one of their Packhorse fast replenishment starships.
Exciting times ahead, I can't wait to see one! First I have to avoid the Hishmeri blowing us apart, through.
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This otoh was a modified Ittick-Ka-built Palace capital ship; a capital ship modified with additional external supply pods and disruptor turrets instead of the standard Ittick-Ka phasers.
anon_user said:
"Not if you ask my galley staff," mav Stella replied, "But point. Now where are these guys? I want to get a look at their fancy new vessel."

On the forward station to th'Vhen's right, his tactical officer, Lieutenant Commander Manessi sucked in a breath, "Might have to wait on that, ma'am," He said to mav Stella, "I'm not picking up a Hishmeri capital… I've got something that matches an Ittick-ka ship." He tapped at the console, and the external view side of the viewscreen zoomed in on a squarish vessel, tens of kilometres distant.

Th'Vhen cocked his head, antennae curling with curisority, "That's a Palace-class. The Ittick-Ka only have a handful, and they keep them over occupied homeworlds. What's one doing here?" He tilted his head, as another ship came into view from behind the Palace's bulk, "With a Thoroughbred in tow?"

"A little intel bird is whispering to my PADD," mav Stella said, tapping at it, "Aha! Compare the armament. The main energy weapon battery is completely different. Those are disruptor turrets, and the Ittick-Ka use phasers."

Manessi nodded, "Wait, and they…" he tapped at his console, and the turrets were highlighted, "That's the exact same type of disruptor bank on an Andalusian. And check it out, sir, ma'am. They've added more resupply attachments, and…" he highlighted an ugly mass of external tanks and scaffolding, haphazardly bolted to the underside of the Palace like an unwanted growth, "Supplies."

"The Ittick-Ka are building vessels for the Hishmeri," th'Vhen said, "Or at least they turned over this vessel, and the Hishmeri converted it to a supply ship."
"Hishmeri are hailing us, sir," his Ops officer reported.
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So you're looking at a ship roughly twice the size of anything the Hishmeri have ever operated; modern capitals start around 2MTs, and the most modern Hishmeri Andalusian frigate masses 940kt.

■

Simon_Jester said:
In other words, the Hishmeri aren't amassing a fleet of battleships they'd normally be unable to afford sept-by-sept. They may not even be the things the Ittick-ka are building; the Ittick-ka may be building the heavily armed war frigates the Hishmeri favor while they continue to rely on their existing fleet of replenishment capitals, thus allowing the Hishmeri to replace attritional losses suffered against, say, us. :p
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Point of order:
I did not assert that the Hishmeri are amassing a fleet of battleships. It's in noone's interests to supply the Hishmeri nation as a whole.
I opined that a particular sept or number of septs, maybe even a single warlord, are being drip fed a localized improvement in extended deployment capabilities in order to improve their ability to stage provocations on pre-warp societies.

That means a single capital, a ship that the Ittick'Ka as a society only have a handful of, made it's way to a single warlord/sept.
Simon_Jester said:
Are you remembering some specific piece of evidence that the Hishmeri are being gifted with a fleet of battleships, distinct from their normal fleet of war frigates supported by capital-ship-sized replenishment vessels?

This is not to say the Cardassians aren't bankrolling construction of those frigates, mind you- though it's worth remembering that once upon a time the Cardassians were resource-limited, and while they've no doubt been enriched by the capture of Bajor and the Chyrstovians since then, that only carries them so far...
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See above.
The Hishmeri can already build ~1MT ships indigenously at their space habitats; it's outright stated in their wiki article:
The Andalusian-class Attack Ship is the heaviest Hishmeri ship likely to be encountered by Starfleet, and the Hishmeri are only known to possess a single heavier craft in their entire fleet. They are possessed of formidable firepower matching an Excelsior-A. Overall, despite its outstanding firepower, the Andalusian's defenses are equivalent to those of a Starfleet noncombat frigate such as a Kepler, and their science package and accommodations are somewhat anemic. Endurance is average over a majority of frigates but inferior to any Starfleet vessel they are likely to encounter.

The Andalusian is known to have 8 units of crew total, but the exact amounts of each crew type is not known.

Combat Science Hull Shield Presence Defense
7 2 2 4 2 4
br Cost sr Cost Weight Build Time Officer Enlisted Technicians
? ? 943kt ? ? ? ?
A much newer type, designated the "Andalusian" by Starfleet Intelligence, is a major update to the older "Thoroughbred" layout. A much more dangerous opponent than the older type the "Andalusian" is capable of being built in most Hishmeri yards, but it requires a great deal of influence with the high ranked members of a Sept to be allowed to build an "Andalusian" for a Ship Clan. Usually only the most successful and ruthless Clans are allowed to operate "Andalusians"

Andalusian - To Boldly Go
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But yeah, assume it's a group project.
The Ittick-Ka provide the yards and build them at cost, in return for safe borders; the Cardassians trickle feed funding over several years, and the Hishmeri make up the remainder.

Warlord has a capital to swing around in internal polotics and to help sustain longrange ops.
It's not like superships do not have a history in Star Trek.
 
random_npc said:
I still don't really get how slavery is still profitable. modern manufacturing has largely made mass use of unskilled labor marginal, it weird to see that reverse in the future. Not to mention, someone who was abducted into slavery is not exactly going to be motivated. I can get why you'd raid for slaves as luxuries, but for industrial purposes is just weird.

"ok, we kidnapped a few hundred thousand dudes, now we just need to force them each through a six year course on how to be useful. then we need to trust them with at least mildly unsupervised access to industrial machinery."

not to mention raiding for slaves is just werid. the hismar have a very effective slave race already, why do they want more slaves who aren't biologically incapable of violence? how on earth is raiding for a few thousand slaves worth anything? to the point where nations put up with having thousands of beings who would kill them all given the opportunity around their industrial centers?
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Unskilled labor is a thing that exists, man, even in the space future.

Mining? Cheap, easy, and exactly the sort of thing that can be made more effective by throwing bodies at it (Depending on exactly how much of a shit you give about your laborers).
Actual fabrication? Not programming, just inserting Tab a into Slot B? Also more effective with more labor.
If nothing else, you can toss them down with the Brosmen and have them help farm.

There are better ways to do it on a societal scale, sure, but-- and this is an important but-- Hishmeri don't give a shit about their society, just for themselves-- and they, as individuals, are made rich on the trade.
 
Iron Wolf said:
Stella assumed it was going to be a Packhorse capital ship/replenishment vessel; she got a Palace instead.
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QUESTION
Since when are Packhorses capital ships? There are only two warships in the indigenous Hishmeri ToE that I can find: the Thoroughbred and the Andalusian. Everything else were freighters and tne like. Underway replenishment vessel is basically a freighter with military drives and protections.

Are you saying they have a third warship type that we haven't seen?
 
Voikirium said:
Unskilled labor is a thing that exists, man, even in the space future.

Mining? Cheap, easy, and exactly the sort of thing that can be made more effective by throwing bodies at it (Depending on exactly how much of a shit you give about your laborers).
Actual fabrication? Not programming, just inserting Tab a into Slot B? Also more effective with more labor.
If nothing else, you can toss them down with the Brosmen and have them help farm.

There are better ways to do it on a societal scale, sure, but-- and this is an important but-- Hishmeri don't give a shit about their society, just for themselves-- and they, as individuals, are made rich on the trade.
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I get why the Hishmeri use slaves. hell, they even use a practical form of slavery. planet sized food production centers guarded from orbit. but the fuck are the ittick-ka getting out of it? as for basic assembly, I am skeptical of the idea that its not way more cost effective to just automate that. especially because machines won't try and sabotage you if you can get away with it. Mining has the issue in that a lot of tools ment for breaking rocks can be used to break things less hard than rocks, like expensive machinery or unwary overseers.
 
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random_npc said:
I get why the Hishmeri use slaves. hell, they even use a practical form of slavery. planet sized food production centers guarded from orbit. but the fuck are the ittick-ka getting out of it? as for basic assembly, I am skeptical of the idea that its not way more cost effective to just automate that. especially because machines won't try and sabotage you if you can get away with it. Mining has the issue in that a lot of tools ment for breaking rocks can be used to break things less hard than rocks, like expensive machinery or unwary overseers.
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Ittick-ka reliance on slavery is probably more a matter of ideology than efficiency. Then, once they've created an ideological need for slaves, they need more as a matter of status.
 
random_npc said:
I get why the Hishmeri use slaves. hell, they even use a practical form of slavery. planet sized food production centers guarded from orbit. but the fuck are the ittick-ka getting out of it? as for basic assembly, I am skeptical of the idea that its not way more cost effective to just automate that. especially because machines won't try and sabotage you if you can get away with it. Mining has the issue in that a lot of tools ment for breaking rocks can be used to break things less hard than rocks, like expensive machinery or unwary overseers.
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Slavery has always been in large part about cruelty, rather than just 'utility'.
 
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