...is the Federation heaven? The UFP tries, but it is in a universe that is decidedly not heaven. On the quadrant level, there are various neighbours that do not share the UFP's values. Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, etc. The UFP is relatively peaceful because it is in a position of power, which the neighbours respect as long as the UFP stay that way through hard work and vigilance. On a galactic level, there exist possible antagonists, Borg, Dominion, Krenim, Voth. On the universal level, there are existential threats from various non-corporeal god-like beings (Q, Organians, Douwd).

Seems like an awfully hostile place to be heaven.

And then an even bigger problem, will the theoretically simulated species like the Federation as their heaven? The simulated species isn't necessarily going to want to live in the UFP as heaven. Some Vikings wouldn't like Christian Heaven, and some Christians wouldn't want Valhalla. Different religions here on Earth have their own views on the afterlife, an entirely different species are going to have a different heaven in mind. What if their version of religion preaches that afterlives are terrible and constant reincarnation is the best? A daresay they'd feel cheated being sent to the Federation.

Sorry for the late responses, you've given some good arguments as well as insight and I want to do them justice with a response.

The Federation may not be perfect, however of all factions, we know of in the universe they are the objectively best to live in because you have the freedom to live the life you desire to within the limits of our technology (which has been improving consistently) as long as that doesn't include infringing on the right of other sapient beings. It doesn't matter that the heaven that you want may not yet exist because we will happily help you create it.

I wouldn't trust there to be an afterlife that we could realise them to considering how religion is normally portrayed in Star Trek to my understanding (although spirituality, in general, tends to be shown as more legitimate). Not even assuming that it would be the afterlife they want (or just believe in).

Even if they decide that they want to leave the Federation we will respect that choice (although this is likely to be a terrible choice in the long-run as they wouldn't have our logistics or Starfleet to assist or protect them, probably our economy sure, but they could very well be consumed by a hungering empire or even just enslaved and robbed by raiders/pirates - unless they stay within our space but I'm not sure the politics of that, I think you get a pass if at first you were outside of our borders and then the Federation passes by where you colonised but I doubt they will be as lenient for allowing you to colonise independently space already in Fed borders, or else every enemy would make short work of our sovereignty).

Elder civilisations will turn a blind eye and no power or superpower at the present is as powerful and morally just as us - without the Federation it's amazing how grimdark Star Trek is - this has been proved time and time again in the quest and in the wider lore, as you have said every other faction we encounter baring the occasional act of kindness by say the Organians just reinforces this point.

Which is the reason I'm eager to keep expanding because no one else has a better solution to the galaxy's woes and protection from its monsters for great and small as has been proven objectively time and time again.

Firstly, I'd like to clarify that in "it's wrong to create a large group of people because then some of them will suffer and you'll be responsible for that suffering" the scale and circumstances of creation very much matters.

In the context of simulating for uplifts:

While it won't be a hell-world, there would be multiple runs. Of which some runs will be absolutely terrible. As the simulations are being run because the good paths are unknown, probabilistic it would seem that integrating all the future acts together might sum negative. I would also be wary about comparing total good and total bad and summing it up in balance. Because it's hard to do and also easy to game. If I run a single simulation, wherein I place 10 billion into perfectly happy lives and 1 billion realistic, on balance more are happy and happier, but I have made the 1 billion suffer partially. Entirely on me because I set everything up.

In the wider context:

But creation of a simulation will not be a single act. Variables are set, situations are created. The entire literal reality in which the simulated are in requires consideration to be created. It's not a random act. The very settings are by the creator's will. In this case they should be responsible for every act on the tree.

When a child is brought into the world, the parents did not participate in the creation of reality in which good and terrible things exist. The parents can not be held responsible if an asteroid hits the child or if they are attacked by wild animals. Certainly the parents participate in the mitigation of such events, but they cannot be held responsible for events beyond their control. In this case, they cannot be responsible for the entire tree. External events will also modify the offspring's and later generation's behaviour, to a point where the initial parent's responsibility for further acts of later generations is also out of their control. Removing them from being completely responsible for their branch.

The same cannot be said for simulated life. Their entire reality is under perfect control. The scale if creation very much matters here, and I didn't make that clear.

I think you bring up good points. I was thinking to make simulations to at first anyway resemble real life would be the safest option as Star Trek tends to empathise very strongly that playing God can be dangerous, so I figure that by starting with what we already know works (at least how it works) would be safest. And we could use such Data to help with real-life (in-universe) situations - not just to help uplifting but also to help with combat simulations (anywhere from a battle to a campaign to an entire war), practising in emergencies (VR for the most part), or developing AI (not necessarily sapient) in a theoretically safer environment just to scratch the surface.

Of course, this technology is still extremely far away from where we are today, so we can discuss this more when we have a better picture of how it could play out.

Lastly, I question for the QMs - I was wondering if the majority of a planet wanted to be independent of its government for whatever reason but wanted to remain within the Federation as a new entity, could that be possible?
 
This conversation on simulated life would be a good debate and conference to hold on a planet or station in the quest.
 
The Federation may not be perfect, however of all factions, we know of in the universe they are the objectively best to live in because you have the freedom to live the life you desire to within the limits of our technology (which has been improving consistently) as long as that doesn't include infringing on the right of other sapient beings. It doesn't matter that the heaven that you want may not yet exist because we will happily help you create it.

Your entire scenario involves denying people those same rights. Putting aside the ludicrous scale, you'd be denying even very basic rights for someone's entire life in a dark-ages society, and only giving them full citizenship privleges after they die. It's the most bizzare citizenship test I've ever seen.
 
A Primer on the Mandoro
(Memo from the Huascar to the FDS)


Sir, while contact with the Mandoro remains somewhat sparse, there are a few matters we were capable of discerning. They may be helpful in future dealings with the Techniocracy; if nothing else, they do clear a few matters of some concern. This may all be wrong, or half-understood, or out of date-- this is, after all, a very new to us civilization.

Firstly we discovered the most basic level of governance: the ruling body is the Signoria, with members chosen from every participating city-state and colony. Members are elevated by city-wide competition, whereupon they must copy the magnus opum of the city founder and have it judged by citizens as to quality and technical merit. Terms last for five years, and no member may have a back-to-back terms.

More importantly than the questions of function, there is the matter of party. Each is named for their preferred artistic style.

Firstly, and most powerful, are the Neo-Classicists. Having been the driving force behind planetary unification for the Mandoro, they have historically tilted the system in their own favor-- most blatantly, by making elevation to the Signoria contingent on copying the same band of elders they admire. Conservative of temperament, they have been the force most in favor of continuing to apply the same forms as the Mandoro have always wielded. The Mandoro most opposed to the Cardassians, on account of their Aesthetic inability and lack of respect for traditions.

One very important, now, are the Non-Objective. They have taken the elder respect that every Mandoro feels and turned it to a very different direction from the Neo-Classicists-- they desire, as the very first elders did, to find the solution that works best for the current problems of their people, rather than continuing to apply the same solutions they always have. Historically the weakest faction in politics, the actions of Mistress Gencilisi have brought with them a strengthening of support for the party. Divided on the matter of Cardassia-- one wing supports their modernizing efforts, while all the rest are united in their disdain for the Cardassian lack of artistic ability. Many of the Non-Objectivists are intrigued by the slight view they had of the Honiani, feeling a philosophical kinship in their quest to beautify the galaxy.

The last is Dorchatism, founded during the Foreswearing-- itself a matter we understand very little of. Very similar to the gothic works of Earth-- and similarly abused by the Neo-Classicists in ages past, though they have turned their ire now to the Non-Objectivists. Populated by the military, they are a mercenary band with one overriding objective-- to strengthen the navy. They have sold their votes and support to the other two-parties in return for much support towards the military. Seek a foreign patron against the Cardassians, to some extent. Once again opposed to the Union on aesthetic grounds. Historically the second most powerful, though that might change.

On a different note, we have reason to believe the Mandoro holding only domed cities is a matter of choice, rather than circumstance-- they are offended by what is ugly, and what is uglier than a lifeless gray rock? They have therefore made it a policy to settle and, eventually, terraform these worlds over the long term. This is, itself, actually becoming a matter of division as well, with many of the Dorchatists seeking to establish at least a small number of more normal colonies, to more easily facilitate trade and diplomatic meetings, as well as quicker expansion of the techniocracy.
--
(Sorry if I'm posting too much, I'm going back to University in like, a week, and I figured I might as well see some stuff done before I have no free time to write anything at all)
 
A Primer on the Mandoro
(Memo from the Huascar to the FDS)


Sir, while contact with the Mandoro remains somewhat sparse, there are a few matters we were capable of discerning. They may be helpful in future dealings with the Techniocracy; if nothing else, they do clear a few matters of some concern. This may all be wrong, or half-understood, or out of date-- this is, after all, a very new to us civilization.

Firstly we discovered the most basic level of governance: the ruling body is the Signoria, with members chosen from every participating city-state and colony. Members are elevated by city-wide competition, whereupon they must copy the magnus opum of the city founder and have it judged by citizens as to quality and technical merit. Terms last for five years, and no member may have a back-to-back terms.

More importantly than the questions of function, there is the matter of party. Each is named for their preferred artistic style.

Firstly, and most powerful, are the Neo-Classicists. Having been the driving force behind planetary unification for the Mandoro, they have historically tilted the system in their own favor-- most blatantly, by making elevation to the Signoria contingent on copying the same band of elders they admire. Conservative of temperament, they have been the force most in favor of continuing to apply the same forms as the Mandoro have always wielded. The Mandoro most opposed to the Cardassians, on account of their Aesthetic inability and lack of respect for traditions.

One very important, now, are the Non-Objective. They have taken the elder respect that every Mandoro feels and turned it to a very different direction from the Neo-Classicists-- they desire, as the very first elders did, to find the solution that works best for the current problems of their people, rather than continuing to apply the same solutions they always have. Historically the weakest faction in politics, the actions of Mistress Gencilisi have brought with them a strengthening of support for the party. Divided on the matter of Cardassia-- one wing supports their modernizing efforts, while all the rest are united in their disdain for the Cardassian lack of artistic ability. Many of the Non-Objectivists are intrigued by the slight view they had of the Honiani, feeling a philosophical kinship in their quest to beautify the galaxy.

The last is Dorchatism, founded during the Foreswearing-- itself a matter we understand very little of. Very similar to the gothic works of Earth-- and similarly abused by the Neo-Classicists in ages past, though they have turned their ire now to the Non-Objectivists. Populated by the military, they are a mercenary band with one overriding objective-- to strengthen the navy. They have sold their votes and support to the other two-parties in return for much support towards the military. Seek a foreign patron against the Cardassians, to some extent. Once again opposed to the Union on aesthetic grounds. Historically the second most powerful, though that might change.

On a different note, we have reason to believe the Mandoro holding only domed cities is a matter of choice, rather than circumstance-- they are offended by what is ugly, and what is uglier than a lifeless gray rock? They have therefore made it a policy to settle and, eventually, terraform these worlds over the long term. This is, itself, actually becoming a matter of division as well, with many of the Dorchatists seeking to establish at least a small number of more normal colonies, to more easily facilitate trade and diplomatic meetings, as well as quicker expansion of the techniocracy.
--
(Sorry if I'm posting too much, I'm going back to University in like, a week, and I figured I might as well see some stuff done before I have no free time to write anything at all)

A very interesting interpretation of the Clone Wars era Mandalorians I believe? Probably the best fit for the Federation out of any other interpretation.
 
The Mandoro seem a lot of fun and I'd like to keep Righteous around there to diplomacy with them and keep on building up defense pacts between them, the Allupii, and the Dobetia.
 
Nope. A lot more Italian Renaissance than anything else.

Ah, my mistake - I see the connection now. I was thinking Clone Wars Mandalorians because of the name, the cities (both live in domed cities), the Neo labels of political groups reminding me of New Mandalorians and the fraction that wasn't a Neo group (Dorchatism), focused overwhelmingly on strengthening the military reminding me of Death Watch. But now I reread it the Renaissance Italy vibe is much stronger, with the art and city-state focus.

Their Navy wouldn't happen to have the tradition of wear colourfully decorated armour and have advanced jetpacks, would they? :thonk:
 
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Omake - Bright Moon - nocarename
Bright Moon
It was by the light of two moons that Senior Scholar Leylin mar Archen banked her hoverauto into the motor pool. The old sodium lamps washed the colour out of the fur on her muzzle as she headed for the entrance to the observatory she managed. Newer lights would have cost more and would spill less light into the sky. Here though the money was better spent on new detectors, because unlike a traditional telescope, light pollution from two of the three moons that circled the planet, or from the parking lot, were less of a problem than the mountain that sat above the sensors she oversaw.

Instead, inside a mostly decommissioned bunker sat one of the world's most advanced neutrino telescopes looking out through the mountain, and the entire planet, with equal ease.

With the use of the large bunker, once intended to hold whole infantry armies in the face of nuclear war, came military restrictions on access. Which is why the Senior Scholar had to check through security like everyone else at the facility.

"Evening Scholar Leylin," said the Ranker manning the security booth separated from the access pathway by a thick layer of bulletproof glass.

"Evening Lehir. How are the kits?"

"Oh, they're just great. Climbing all over their Dad, tails going like they're trying to take off." Lehir taking a moment while waiting for the computer to finish its biometric identification procedure to hold a small computer table up to the security glass to show a short video loop of her children tumbling over her current husband.

Leylin leaned in. "Aww that's adorable," she cooed.

"Sure, are until you have to be the one to herd them all up," agreed Lehir as an almost inaudible hum ceased, "And the access control computer is down. I'm going to need a Terpsichorus to come over and unlock the controls so we can reboot them. Sorry. Anything exciting I'm keeping you from tonight?"

"Every night is exciting," said Leylin, "Neutrinos, actually looking at them, is so new that we learn something new every time we pull another image out of the computers."

"Makes me wish that I'd been able to pass my science courses," complained Lehir.

"I've got nothing but time until you can open the door, want a quick lesson," offered Leylin as she set down her bag to wait.

"Sure, if you can simplify it enough for an amateur."

"Trust me. Politicians don't like to fund anything they can't understand and I had to get my funding from them somehow. First, what do you think you know about the Neutrino Telescope Project?"

"It mostly tracks processes deep within our sun and it's under this mountain because the best way we have to monitor neutrinos is to make something incredibly sensitive and then stop anything from hitting it. Since we don't know how to stop neutrinos that's everything left over."

Leyin's eyes had widened slightly at the summary, "Almost perfect, and pretty close to the brochures we handed out at the last time we had reporters through."

"I didn't pass the science course, but it's not like I stopped reading."

"Fair," conceded Leylin, "That gets you existence. We also track direction with a couple of different tricks. First, we time the detections very carefully. Since neutrinos move at light speed, we can line up the detections and get a heading from that, then look at the sky with optical or radio telescopes so that we can try and pin down the source."

"That makes sense. Kind of vague, but useful."

"Exactly, mostly these detectors work when the neutrinos smack into an electron, gives it a little more energy. Then the electron gives off radiation when it goes back to normal. Kind of the way it happens in a laser. Now a better trick to get directions is if we get lucky and the energy levels are low enough a neutrino can bump into an entire atom. If that happens, we can pick a direction off of that, long term we can even build a map of things like the neutrino cosmic background radiation or detect a supernova before the light from it has a chance to reach us."

"That sounds wrong," said Lehir looking confused, "You just said that neutrinos moved at light speed. How would they beat the light to us then?"

"It can take thousands, maybe millions of years for light to get out of a star like our Sun. Every time it leaves an atom it goes until it hits another one, and since the atoms in a star are packed closely enough to fuse, that doesn't take long. Then the photon gets emitted and it starts again in a different direction. Maybe even backwards. Neutrinos have so much trouble interacting with the rest of regular matter that they can skip out almost immediately, which means that we get a much, much faster view of what's happening."

"Huh. Science is weird."

"That's where the fun is."

The door behind Lehir clicked and unlocked, a head poking out, nodding at both Scholar and Ranker, sliding a plain key into a slot and opening the control cabinet at the security checkpoint. After that, it was a few minutes of careful work with tuning forks and a tone generator to re-synchronize the sonic encryption loop before pushing five buttons and shutting the cabinet again before leaving.
While the hardware began its handshake protocol Lehir continued, "Not long now, but why is it so secured then if the telescope is good at tracking are things like suns and stars?"

"And nuclear plants. The old detectors, the big ones that might take you ten minutes to walk across if you weren't in a hurry, they might get you a rough count to help pin down unreported nuclear reactors. The new directional ones? They aren't fast enough for targeting on something like a missile in real-time, but for doing things like tracking a sub? Or someone's attempt at a secret nuclear-powered base like a cheap thriller? That we can start to pin down."

"By measuring things that can fly through a planet. Science is crazy sometimes."

"Oh, that's all the time," said Leylin with a smile, "We're just careful what we publish."

-0-

It was maybe a sixtieth of the way into the shift when some of the more ominous words in science were uttered.

"Huh. That's unusual."

"What's up, Movli?" asked Leylin.

"Oh hey, Boss. Just got an unusual spike on the high energy neutrino detector. No double flashes on the nuclear detector satellite network, so it wasn't a deliberate criticality. No fluctuations in the power grid so it wasn't a civilian reactor."

"Go down the list of isotope only plants next?" suggested Leylin coming fully awake at the news.

"I guess yeah. Which is always the call that every nuclear certified person in the country wants to get in the middle of the night."

"Actually, hold up on that. Start getting a hold of the different seismology centres. Most of the things that could cause a problem we need to worry about first would have made a hell of a bang. I'll get Malsun heading a team to coordinate with the other neutrino observatories to see if we can pin an origin down."

"What do we do?"

"We do our job. And right now, that means that I have to wake up Secretary Lowwins and let him know that either a star exploded or there's a radioactive disaster somewhere on the planet and we can't tell which yet."

-0-

Senior Scholar Leylin had just finished getting past the cabinet secretary's night secretary, and explaining the situation ending with, "It's either going to be some interesting astronomy, in which case I apologize, or it's the first warning we have of a dramatic and otherwise unknown nuclear disaster."

"How do we tell the difference?" asked Secretary mer Lowwins over the speakerphone.

"Well, it depends. The inverse-square law-"

"-The what?" interrupted Lowwins.

"It's the same way that a light is dimmer when you're further away," explained Leylin, "Neutrinos are a form of radiation and follow it like all the other forms. So, either the source is pretty big and right next door or it's huge and it is light-years away, or it's the neutrino equivalent of a gamma-ray burst and it's in a different galaxy and just evaporated everything next to it."

"But can we tell the difference?" reiterated Lowwins.

"If it lasts long enough, sure. Once we get a direction, we can look that way and see if anything lines up. In the meantime, we keep measuring everything we can and look for anything else that glows or hums that the timing lines up with."

"And if it doesn't last?"

"Nothing we can do about besides knowing that this is another thing to look for and sigh about when conspiracy theorists point at it."

"Is there anything else we can do?"

"Give me a bigger budget and we can go looking with bigger and newer equipment. Give me more time and we can see if it happens again. Give me more freedom and we can try and crowdsource it across the planet and see if there's anything in different labs we can pull together."

"Hold off on that last one but start putting your information together. I'll put it before the High Warden once she's some type of awake."

"Understood," agreed Leylin.

The door to her office banged open and Movli barged in, printout in hand. "Good news Boss," he said, panting slightly, "We've got a directional fix."

-0-

The High Warden rubbed her face. She felt like she'd aged three years in the last six great months. Her predecessor had told her that disasters always happened at these sorts of hours, or at least they would if she was lucky.

"I was elected based on the economy, not space exploration. Break it down for me. Like I'm a kit."

"Yes Warden," said Lowwins before taking a deep breath and starting from the top, "There is a new high energy neutrino source off-planet. It is probably, but not certainly, a supernova or other astronomical event. We have no direct observation of the event because Monar is in the way at the moment. There is a small outside chance that the event could be caused by aliens, or an alien probe, having coasted into our system on low power and now hiding behind Monar, or some other event that we haven't thought of yet."

"Probability of risk to the country?

"Low chance that it is anything bad, but it might be very bad if we're wrong."

"Chance that it gives any other country an edge in the next," she closed her eyes and counted off the timeline for the next round of trade talks, "Call it six months?"

"None existent for practical purposes. No one has a rover or orbital monitor that can reach as high as Monar's orbit, which is the closest site where the event could be for at least a year. Longer if something has to be built. It might take decades to do anything with the information if this is something like a nova. The biggest danger if this is the first sign of something that could sterilize the planet."

"That's a risk?" asked the High Warden opening her eyes.

"Space has energy levels being thrown around in it that we can't really even think about," said Secretary Lowwins, "I've been assured that it is very unlikely."

"But more likely than aliens."

"Why would aliens sneak in? Also, I've been assured repeatedly that there is no such thing as stealth in space."

"Couldn't the aliens have some sort of camouflage that they could use to hide their ship?" asked the Warden as she reached for another mug of morning broth.

"If aliens were doing something like that, they would have to be aware that neutrinos go through little things that get in the way. Like moons. Any aliens that could do something like travel between stars and hide from the satellite telescope network have to know enough about physics to know that about neutrinos and that their craft is producing them."

"Too bad. It would have been a great story to tell the gradkits. Oh well. I guess we make some extra shelters just in case we have to get the country through some sort of radiation waves from space," she reached over to a pad of official paper and began writing the first draft of the instructions to follow on it as she continued, "Let the scholars know that the situation is declassified and that they can direct as many eyes and ears, or however the information comes out when you have an observatory under a mountain, as they want to try and figure it out."

"I'll pass that along."

-0-

Navigator's Log, Stardate 27312.4, USS Pleezirra—Lieutenant Leonidas McNamara

Departure from Kosrith [Note: Local name for a prewarp planet in sector Charlie Dash Dash Six] complicated by an effort to confound planetary observatories while avoiding the outer moons.

System data and route attached for future reference and review.
Captain's Log, Stardate 27312.4, USS Pleezirra - Captain Maria Volkov

Disaster! It is a good thing we were tapped into the communication networks, or we might have missed our presence was being noted. It seems we underestimated how advanced their high-energy astronomy was, due to most of it being hidden underground. We intercepted chatter on academic channels that they had detected unusually strong neutrino returns, and someone had used a prototype sonic computer to calculate they were coming from a direction obscured by the moon -- in other words, our warp core. On one hand it is good because we have an idea how powerful these interesting computers are, on the other hand is very bad because our cover was blown to bits.

We made a quick exit, and our presence was not directly observed. Most academics suspected it was emissions from an obscured supernova, and only a few considered the possibility it may be from an extraterrestrial source. However, this is the danger of pre-warp cultures. For all we know our little anomaly will throw off science for decades, and they will waste telescope-time trying to find the source of these mysterious neutrinos. Or paranoid voices will say it was a God or angry aliens and they should institute some overreaction. A more cautious follow-up will be required.

Mostly I am disappointed in myself for assuming too little of these people. Never be overconfident!
A/N: Thank you once again to @Iron Wolf and @AKuz for betaing this, before it was submitted for marks for a Comparative Lit course. Dual use folks, that's the way to go.
 
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Question for everyone.

I sorry to ask but could someone inform me of the status of Section 31? I am still behind in regard to reading the quest, but I am confused about the Status of Section 31? Is it not being covered? Does it even exist? Personally, I kind of liked Section 31 as it was the hidden shadow behind the Federation paradise. I believe that it was introduced in DS9, as the writers wanted to show the aspects of a United Federation of Planets in total war.
 
Question for everyone.

I sorry to ask but could someone inform me of the status of Section 31? I am still behind in regard to reading the quest, but I am confused about the Status of Section 31? Is it not being covered? Does it even exist? Personally, I kind of liked Section 31 as it was the hidden shadow behind the Federation paradise. I believe that it was introduced in DS9, as the writers wanted to show the aspects of a United Federation of Planets in total war.

Section 31 is gone. Verboten. Cast into the void. It is not welcome within these halls. This quest strives for a realistic, but ultimately optimistic view of the Federation as one of the few entities in the galaxy concerned with more than its own survival.
 
I vaguely recall an incident with a group using that moniker, however they were very much not on the up-and-up. As far as this continuity is concerned, people claiming to be part of Section 31 are nothing more than rather deranged terrorist wannabes.
More technically, they used it as an excuse. They're basically somewhere between sovereign citizens and a terrorist movement.
"Okay. I have no choice, then." Silva fixed a smile back to his face, "Under Section 31 of the Federation charter, I claim I was acting in the interests of the People of the Federation. I refuse to accept any charges levelled against me for none apply in the face of the need for survival. Your authority over my sovereign person is not recognized."

There was a dead silence in the room. zh'Rhashaan's eyebrow slowly lifted as she stared Silva down, "Anything else?"

"That's all I need!"

zh'Rhashaan sighed, leaning back in her chair, "Section 31 doesn't protect private citizens. It's only designed to offer legal cover to Starfleet officers in the event they must implement a drastic action, with the approval of the Federation Council, who are also protected." Nash shifted her posture, regarding the faces floating in front of her with disdain, "Your little band of Section 31 enthusiasts fail to understand it is not designed to give a terrorist group carte blanche to implement their fantasies of saving the Federation from itself."

"We see the truth of things." Silva retorted, "And the courts will see it as well."

zh'Rhashaan and Silva stared at each other in silence. Then, all at once, she rose, waving at her guards, "Let's go. I can't wait for the FNS to report on your courtroom delusions, personally."
 
Yeah but this isn't canon Star Trek and assuming things to remain like that is... not recommended.
Do people dislike Section 31 thus it is not included in this quest? I am just curious. I like Section 31 as I personally like stories that show flaws in an utopian society. Do people dislike Section 31 as a concept which is why it should not be mentioned?
 
The biggest flaw we usually find in our utopia is that we can't help as many people as we want to, in as many places as we have found people that need helping. So, uh, spies making hard decisions are a thing, but S31 aren't the Federation's 'unauthorized' black ops arm here.

They're just nuts with phasers and sometimes a cell structure organization.

In addition I believe our Shark-in-Chief, the head QM, has expressed a lack of desire to add a Section 31 portion to the quest. If you want to write spy stuff about terrible actions to preserve the government as an agent hated by your own government in many levels and positions but reluctantly bound to work with you anyway for the betterment of everyone... the Tal Shiar was not all that long ago in game were stopped from being exterminated and destroyed by the Romulan government to once again protect the Romulans, Remans and other subject peoples from a terrible external threat.

You might try looking there.
 
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Do people dislike Section 31 thus it is not included in this quest? I am just curious. I like Section 31 as I personally like stories that show flaws in an utopian society. Do people dislike Section 31 as a concept which is why it should not be mentioned?

I dislike the fact that the shitty Beta Canon had Section 31 as a shadow government that turned the Federation into a sick joke of a sham democracy where Starfleet and Section 31 would kill elected politicians.

Additionally, Section 31 as some top sekret clubhouse for authoritarian dickbags that has controlled all the species and trillions of citizens of the Federation, and before that United Earth, for centuries is patently ridiculous.

Starfleet (AND the various member species) already have their own intelligence agencies, having a super secret ultra elite security agency atop that is just silly, and would be inefficient in a "the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing" totalitarian state kind of way.

To continue, Section 31 as an ongoing conspiracy doesn't actually add anything to the narrative or character of the universe if you can just explain the breakdowns in Federation and Starfleet morality as "the Illuminaughty /<o>\ made them do it".

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Now, I'm more than willing to continence the existence of various groups who have adopted the mission or title of Section 31 (Drawing from bog standard emergency laws written into the Federation Constitution (The Constitution is not a suicide pact, etc, etc) ) as I've long noted that Starfleet has a failure state that produces rogue officers like all the Badmirals from Cartwright to Akintola to Layton. (Starfleet encourages its officers to do the right thing and damn the consecquances... but what if you come to think the right thing is launching a Coup and initiating Martial Law across Sol?)

That Section 31 would be an emergent organization that congeals from within the Federation's Administrative, academic, and security apparatus in times of great civilizational stress is something I can easily see. Sloan's Section 31 cell emerging as a reaction to the stress of the Borg incursions and the Dominion war is fine. But an ageless secret society pulling all the strings from behind the scenes? It defies belief and turns all the Federation's accomplishments into a sick joke.

I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH, MAKE SURE YOU'VE GOTTEN PAST "DARK HORIZON" FIRST!

I know that I've mentioned before that the existence of the Singers is partially a critique of the idea that such groups must exist in a democratic society to keep it on the straight and narrow, and horror at what a group with a mandate like Section 31 and actual power could accomplish. The Singers are a best case scenario for Section 31 existing like people want it to!

You can consider this me speaking ex cathedra if you wish
 
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Do people dislike Section 31 thus it is not included in this quest? I am just curious. I like Section 31 as I personally like stories that show flaws in an utopian society. Do people dislike Section 31 as a concept which is why it should not be mentioned?
That too. Most people here don't have a high opinion of "Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (While Hard)".

Add to that the fact that if you look deep enough, Section 31 is actually a bunch of fuck-ups who actively make things worse, not the great saviours of the Federation they claim to be (as is often the case with Hard Men) and, well...
I vaguely recall an incident with a group using that moniker, however they were very much not on the up-and-up. As far as this continuity is concerned, people claiming to be part of Section 31 are nothing more than rather deranged terrorist wannabes.
Section 31 is nothing more than a bunch of deranged terrorists. They're not good, they're not a necessary evil, they're just terrorists with delusions of grandeur.
 
That too. Most people here don't have a high opinion of "Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (While Hard)".

Add to that the fact that if you look deep enough, Section 31 is actually a bunch of fuck-ups who actively make things worse, not the great saviours of the Federation they claim to be (as is often the case with Hard Men) and, well...
But isn't one of the most popular Star Trek episodes, the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight", a prime example of a Star-fleet officer committing immoral actions for the greater good? I know that Section 31 are just a bunch of terrorists but I think people would understand Star-Fleet officers like Captain Sisko when he plotted to bring the Romulans into the Dominion War.
 
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But isn't one of the most popular Star Trek episodes, the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight", a prime example of a Star-fleet officer committing immoral actions for the greater good? I know that Section 31 are just a bunch of terrorists but I think people would understand Star-Fleet officers like Captain Sisko when he plotted to bring the Romulans into the Dominion War.

Again, an officer, or small group of officers wrestling with their consciences is one thing, the stuff good episodes are made of, a vast all controlling conspiracy operating without oversight, endlessly undermining democracy in a totalitarian urge to control everything they see, is yet another thing
 
I dislike the fact that the shitty Beta Canon had Section 31 as a shadow government that turned the Federation into a sick joke of a sham democracy where Starfleet and Section 31 would kill elected politicians..

Strong agree. I was trying to voice this with the earlier bit where the Starfleet Commander's thing was redacted by Time Guys.
 
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