This is actually false. We've always suspected some Biophage survived the battle of Kadesh, or was simply not in the system during the fight. We even had an event a few years later where we and the Romulans intercepted a small shuttle that was infected and destroyed it. That's why the vaccine was so important. Pretty sure Nash said afterwards that the development of the vaccine was significantly more important when it came to ending the crisis than the battle of Kadesh was. So yeah, using the Biophage crisis as our model of succesful crisis resolution, a science solution is exactly what we should be going for. Obviously not going to be easy, but doable.

Realistically, with the Singers ability to hide in and manipulate computer networks, the chance of us managing to find and capture every single one of them is low. And how would we even know we had captured them all if we did. Totally within reason for one to stay dormant for decades or even centuries to avoid notice. They are physically immune to aging, no reason one of them wouldn't adopt that as a backup plan if their regime collapsed. The best way to resolve the crisis is to nullify their ability to do harm.

As another point of comparison, we didn't kill all the full mentats when we ended the Arcadian War. We just changed protocols so that they were restricted to theoretical models only and weren't given unlimited access to dangerous equipment. That and restricting the process to the partial mentat stage meant that mentats were still around, but their ability to cause major damage was gone.

Edit: Couldn't find the exact quote I was looking for, but here's one from Nash's report in the final month of the crisis.

"We are still stationed in the Kadesh system, running down every sensor ghost and cleaning up pockets of Biophage. Given the number of pockets, I am, regrettably, almost positive that some of the Biophage has escaped. There is simply no longer enough hulls to properly account for them."
The real reason the Biophage didn't adapt is because it was debatably sapient, even if it was very good at doing what it was probably created to do. I remember it's attempts to fake communications were very shoddy beyond a basic level. It certainly wasn't smart enough to deliberately genetically engineer new strains of itself to get around the vaccine, and luckily it did not have the capacity to do so naturally. The Singers created themselves, and they run a very scientifically advanced polity, so it's fair to say they can meet us technobabble to technobabble.

Mentats honestly aren't the finest example because, well, there's actually already a structure in Licori society meant to contain Mentats. We know this because they would have certainly blown up Morshadd before we met them if that wasn't the case. This structure was failing at the time only because of what amounted to political nonsense, once the war ended the Licori did what we wanted them to more or less on their own.

There is no Singer containment bureau, the Singers run all the bureus, the only people Singers listen to are other Singers. And when a Singer disagrees with the rest and is caught, the things we know are done to that Singer are not what we'd call Federation approved anyway.

The Singers are also a fair bit more coordinated and used to working together than Mentats, who're maniacal scientists with all that entails.
 
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they are probably "off" so they don't experience time. remember, boxing is seen not as a punishment, but as a way to contain singers who are "unwell". until someone can come around and rewrite them to be "well" which now that I think about it is yet another horrifying part of the whole mess.
Then they are dead! By singer's description, reboot kills them.

And I think we need to stop now.
 
HEY GUYS ANYONE WANT TO WEAPONIZE ME? I'VE BEEN READING THE THREAD AND IT SURE LOOKS LIKE SOME OF YOU MIGHT BE WANTING TO WEAPONIZE ME!

while i would not want to turn that into a weapon in anyway because hoo boy can that go wrong.

if there had been a way to have a meaningful convo with it when it was around there might be some interesting choices that could have been made!

still, all well that end (mostly) well at least the romulans got willing to talk out of it so that is good.
 
The actual solution to the problem of the Singers is pretty simple and doesn't involve killing them.

SCIENCE!

We need to develop a vaccine that can immunize brains against Singer implants and then spread it far and wide. Once that has been adopted by everyone in the galactic neighborhood the Singers pose little more problem than any other authoritarian space empire.

This has been extremely obvious to me ever since we found out how they operate, but everybody always gets all weird and talks about "killing Singers" rather than the infinitely more palatable "block their mind control abilities but good".
That doesn't address the 'controls billions of Horizon citizens and their production' and also doesn't address 'Horizon counter science'. It's a step but not the whole way.
 
I have to say Congrats to the GMs for creating the most Star Treky piece of fiction i got to enjoy in the last few years.Nice little SF fix to get you trough the week .I do have a question .Was there ever somewhere a mention of why our resource extraction methods are not used by the members to increase their own ? if there is could i have link ?It has always bugged me!!
 
Was there ever somewhere a mention of why our resource extraction methods are not used by the members to increase their own ? if there is could i have link ?It has always bugged me!!
All the technology researched by the SDB should be available to member governments; the primary reason that Starfleet's income has ballooned in proportion to the rest of the UFP has been that we've snapped up almost every resource extraction site we find. The membership has grumbled, but we haven't asked for explicit budget increases very often, so they put up with it.

That doesn't address the 'controls billions of Horizon citizens and their production' and also doesn't address 'Horizon counter science'. It's a step but not the whole way.
No more than the Treaty of Mars or the Khitomer Accords have dealt with the unpleasant aspects of Romulan or Klingon society. Limiting the most dangerous tools they have makes their existence tolerable as a practical matter, particularly if we manage to envelop their territory the way we plan for the Ashalla Pact.
 
No more than the Treaty of Mars or the Khitomer Accords have dealt with the unpleasant aspects of Romulan or Klingon society. Limiting the most dangerous tools they have makes their existence tolerable as a practical matter, particularly if we manage to envelop their territory the way we plan for the Ashalla Pact.
That doesn't address at all what Briefvoice and I were talking about.
...
Oh, I see, it kind of does if 'contain them, make us (for now) immune and forget about their thralls' is the answer.
 
That doesn't address at all what Briefvoice and I were talking about.
...
Oh, I see, it kind of does if 'contain them, make us (for now) immune and forget about their thralls' is the answer.
Don't be snide.

Efforts to change the Harmony of Horizon for the better will take decades, minimum. Containing them behind a wall of bases and starships is going to be much easier than conquering their territory outright, and will put us in a better position to take more direct action as opportunities arise. Far from being hypothetical, this is in fact our current strategy for dealing with the Cardassian Union.

Do you object to the assertion that containment is a useful step in curtailing harm?
 
Or how about "contain them, make us immune (for now), and work toward convincing them to reform their system away from the horror-show it is"

People seem to have forgotten that diplomatic resolution is one of the other things in Star Trek, not just technobabble resolution.
 
A problem with containment is that it leaves the Harmony free to trick and enslave other civilizations. I feel we need to at least warn others about the Singers and their tactics.

Unfortunately, some polity less scrupulous than the Federation might conclude that killing all the Singers is the only way to be safe and start a war. Whether the Singers will just accept that we spread their secrets is also questionable. They may well lash out.

So the option of just sitting on Harmony's secret and the option of disseminating our knowledge are both problematic.

It would be great if we could deal with Harmony reasonably quickly ourselves and remove the Singer's ability to harm others, but I don't see any way.
 
A problem with containment is that it leaves the Harmony free to trick and enslave other civilizations.
If the entire Harmony of Horizon hasn't been boxed into a defined area of space, I don't consider them to be contained. I want them completely enveloped, unable to leave their current holdings by any means whatsoever.

Much like we plan for the Cardassian Union, once they've been properly contained we will be in a better position to conduct essentially any course of action we so choose, ranging from pirate broadcast to insertion of strike teams to open war.
 
Rest assured that success in Discord will lead to visible and viable paths forwards. We're determined not have things continue to proceed in endless stalemate again.

We've learned our lesson from *shudder* Beyond.

I have to say Congrats to the GMs for creating the most Star Treky piece of fiction i got to enjoy in the last few years.Nice little SF fix to get you trough the week .I do have a question .Was there ever somewhere a mention of why our resource extraction methods are not used by the members to increase their own ? if there is could i have link ?It has always bugged me!!

? I'm not entirely certain what you mean here. But essentially Stargleet gets first call on most sites we discover and that goes directly into our budget which is entirely at our disposal.

Member sites and resources contribute to their economies on total. Due to the presence of Starfleet and the nature of the Federation itself there isnt a great need to expand and militarize their own fleets. (The core four actually have decided to leave their military defence *entirely* in Starfleet's hands.

The member fleets' budgets tend to be a secondary concern after civilian livelihood and scientific pursuits. Where the public is behind military expansion, which you do see in the Amarki, you do see a fairly substantial expansion if their military budget and capabilities over time.
 
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An important thing to keep in mind when it comes to the Federation civilian economy: Most things in the civilian economy neither need nor are substantially improved by the inclusion of technobabble materials. Especially since replicators are a thing that can fairly arbitrarily reconstitute materials of any kind into anything at all.

Because of this, there's little impulse for any governing body not interested in interstellar flight to exploit those resources to anywhere near the maximum extent. Starfleet gets first dibs on the materials because it does need them, while the member states only want enough to run their own economies on and a military/fast emergency response cushion to catch everything Starfleet doesn't.
 
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Don't be snide.

Efforts to change the Harmony of Horizon for the better will take decades, minimum. Containing them behind a wall of bases and starships is going to be much easier than conquering their territory outright, and will put us in a better position to take more direct action as opportunities arise. Far from being hypothetical, this is in fact our current strategy for dealing with the Cardassian Union.

Do you object to the assertion that containment is a useful step in curtailing harm?
Or how about "contain them, make us immune (for now), and work toward convincing them to reform their system away from the horror-show it is"

People seem to have forgotten that diplomatic resolution is one of the other things in Star Trek, not just technobabble resolution.
I see a fundamental difference between the Singers as they are and the Cardassians. As far as I'm aware, the Cardassians haven't installed mind control chips into their whole population, and the Guls also don't see themselves as gods. Means, they are still reachable with diplomacy.
For the containment strategy ... ... ... you want to patrol a few thousand cubic lightyears such that no cloaked ships can slip through and play havoc elsewhere, and somehow ensure that there's no wormhole in Horizon space, that the Singers won't reverse engineer the gates they stole from the Tauni, block subspace because 'shifting phase / going to another universe' also happens kind of regularly. Ambitious.
 
People seem to have forgotten that diplomatic resolution is one of the other things in Star Trek, not just technobabble resolution.

We have no reason to believe we actually can negotiate with the Singers until such time as they voluntarily reveal their own existence to us. The only reason we know they exist is because a couple of them went completely rogue from the group, and pretending the Singers as we know them don't exist is one of the cornerstones of their own power. We've touched on this point before. We're even operating on the assumption, in game, that it's impossible to negotiate in good faith with the Harmony because of the Singers' unwillingness to admit their existence.
 
It may be possible to technobabble up a solution that would contain the Singers. We know they have to store the information that comprises their being somewhere-if we can figure out a way to trap them and cut them off from escape, then we could begin removing Singers from the Harmony as a whole. Given how certain they are in their total superiority in cyberwarfare, if we could capture transmission nodes we could potentially intercept a number of them in transit by taking them by surprise, and if the Singers stay in one place it limits their ability to use their most dangerous abilities.
 
@AKuz What I'm referring to is the fact that the resource extraction techniques that we seem to develop do not lead to the increase of the amount of resource extracted by the members on their administrated sites (pre-existing).Their budgets do not seem to go up?!Not because of new sites but because they should be extracting more resources from what the already have ??Or at least it seems that way to me :confused:
 
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