To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Location
- NY
Working on visual design for an unspecified, new ship class. This is a rough, top down view so far. The three big things to note for this one will be 1) internal/buried bridge, 2) navigation deflector in the front of the ship, similar to how NX-01 Enterprise's was, 3) instead of the warp nacelles being on the sides they are on the top and bottom. The secondary hull is level with the primary hull, there is no neck connection or z-axis offset between them.
Thoughts? Anything that should be amended or incorporated?
Wow, burying the bridge is going to render it awfully vulnerable to internal plasma leaks. Going to take a lot to get designers to sign on board that risk.
It's really hard to tell what's going on with the nacelles. It looks like the first one is level with the secondary hull and the second one below that?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
:lol
I think it's supposed to be one over, one under? But the top-down view isn't very clear on that front.
- Location
- Australia
Is the pylon wrapping over the top of the nacelle, so that the nacelles are inward facing?
- Location
- NY
As opposed to the current setup where consoles explode and plasma leaks?
Correct, and my apologies. Should have tossed the side view in as well. Time for ascii. Not terribly to scale but rough positioning. Rear half of the ship.
--------------------------
( nacelle . )
--------------------------
/ / pylon
/ /
--------------------------
2ndary Hull . )
--------------------------
\ \
\ \ pylon
--------------------------
( nacelle . )
--------------------------
- Location
- Earth
The secondary hull looks like it's breaking the 50% line-of-sight-between-nacelles rule? Or do the nacelles extend far behind the secondary hull enough for that?
- Location
- NY
Where is the 50% line of sight rule posted? I haven't heard of that constraint.
Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
The rule doesn't exist. Its more to do with the tendency of the tv shows to have the Starship on screen heading toward the screen with its Nacelles visible either above or under the primary Hull or to its side in Voyager's case.
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- He/Him
It's an informal rule attributed to Roddenberry, I believe, when discussing how to design ship models for the show.
SakSak
Unbound
- Location
- The Cold Wastes of the North
-Mumble mumble Cochrane field strenght ratio mumble saturated plasma coils mumble energy efficiency.
-So [TECH] then?
- Aye.
- Location
- Infraspace
There's a a bit about it here:
Ex Astris Scientia - Starship Design Guidelines
They're notably not all that hard-and-fast, though I tend to adhere to them if I can.
- Location
- Earth
The rule definitely exists, it's listed in that link with a link to an interview with Andrew Probert. He worked with Roddenberry himself and had to implement the rules in the design of the TOS Enterprise and Enterprise-D. It's not really "informal" if the rules have been nailed down since the very beginning and have been followed pretty well.
Barring some exceptions, nearly every Starfleet ship has followed this rule.
The NX Enterprise starts early.
Discovery has it too. (Although I personally dislike it extending so far back)
Kirk's Enterprise has it.
Picard's Enterprise as well, of course. (I tried to find a better picture on imgur, but the angles were bad)
Defiant's nacelles hang below the primary hull.
Even Voyager's nacelles angle upwards at warp to follow the rules but are down normally.
Even auxiliary ships like shuttlecraft and the Delta Flyer had them!
Not all alien vessels follow the 50% LoS rule though. Cardassians generally don't follow it at all. Klingon ships like the Vor'cha, BoP, D-7, Negh'Var do. All Romulans, from the 22nd century BoP, 23rd century BoP, D'deridex, Scimitar, Valdore, Vreenak's shuttle. The Borg definitely don't. It seems like if a species follows the nacelle rules, they generally keep doing so. It seems like for a species it's all-or-nothing.
Voyager followed the rules, twice. Can we honestly be less faithful to Trek rules than Voyager?
Barring some exceptions, nearly every Starfleet ship has followed this rule.
The NX Enterprise starts early.
Discovery has it too. (Although I personally dislike it extending so far back)
Kirk's Enterprise has it.
Picard's Enterprise as well, of course. (I tried to find a better picture on imgur, but the angles were bad)
Defiant's nacelles hang below the primary hull.
Even Voyager's nacelles angle upwards at warp to follow the rules but are down normally.
Even auxiliary ships like shuttlecraft and the Delta Flyer had them!
Not all alien vessels follow the 50% LoS rule though. Cardassians generally don't follow it at all. Klingon ships like the Vor'cha, BoP, D-7, Negh'Var do. All Romulans, from the 22nd century BoP, 23rd century BoP, D'deridex, Scimitar, Valdore, Vreenak's shuttle. The Borg definitely don't. It seems like if a species follows the nacelle rules, they generally keep doing so. It seems like for a species it's all-or-nothing.
Voyager followed the rules, twice. Can we honestly be less faithful to Trek rules than Voyager?
- Location
- NY
From the article,
"Warp nacelles must have at least 50% line of sight of each other across the hull. One violator of this rule is the Nebula-class starship, whose nacelle "power combs" are largely obstructed by the ship's engineering hull. The Oberth's nacelles are largely obstructed by the ship's primary hull. The Defiant and the Starfleet scout ship of Star Trek: Insurrection each have two integrated warp nacelles that are fully obstructed by the main hull. Other ships violate this rule as well, including the Romulan scout ship from TNG's "The Defector.""
Personally, I saw the warp field more like the magnetic field between magnets, with the bent field lines creating the bubble the ship is in (otherwise, why is polarized plasma so important?), so direct line of site didn't matter.
But as this design rule is favored I will adjust the sketch accordingly (as well as provide the side view) in the next update.
Thank you for the feedback!
"Warp nacelles must have at least 50% line of sight of each other across the hull. One violator of this rule is the Nebula-class starship, whose nacelle "power combs" are largely obstructed by the ship's engineering hull. The Oberth's nacelles are largely obstructed by the ship's primary hull. The Defiant and the Starfleet scout ship of Star Trek: Insurrection each have two integrated warp nacelles that are fully obstructed by the main hull. Other ships violate this rule as well, including the Romulan scout ship from TNG's "The Defector.""
Personally, I saw the warp field more like the magnetic field between magnets, with the bent field lines creating the bubble the ship is in (otherwise, why is polarized plasma so important?), so direct line of site didn't matter.
But as this design rule is favored I will adjust the sketch accordingly (as well as provide the side view) in the next update.
Thank you for the feedback!
- Location
- Australia
I've had to presume there is a void of some form within the Cardassian ships with coils having space between them. Presumably trading off effectiveness for safety/security.
Maybe safety anyway, having those within your primary hull if someone springs a leak in a plasma injector is going to ruin your whole fucking day.
Maybe safety anyway, having those within your primary hull if someone springs a leak in a plasma injector is going to ruin your whole fucking day.
- Location
- Earth
Of the five violators, only really the Nebula and Insurrection scout ship are confirmed problematic.
The 24th century mission scoutship:
Ridiculously not following the guideline. Not even arguable, the cabin interior view when Worf disables Data leaves no room for an interior clearance.
The Nebula-class:
Angle that might show clearance...
...and angle that doesn't. Former image is VOY, latter image is TNG. Probably needed to extend the nacelle pylons down a little more on the model. (Baseless speculation, TNG model makers didn't get the memo, but VOY CGI modelers did.) There's a slight Excelsior-type tail on the secondary hull on the Nebula that gives a little clearance, but that's at most one-third clearance. Leaning towards rule breaking on Nebula.
Romulan scout ship is 50/50. There are indications of clearance, but I can concede that it could be... shuttlebays or something?
It's quite dark. Could even be an intake of some sort? Could also be the clearance required.
The Defiant and Oberth have direct photographic evidence to contradict the article.
The Defiant you can literally see the the line of sight in the photo in my previous post.
The Oberth has the forward third obscured by the primary hull, but the Master Systems Display and shots from the show display the line of sight.
The nacelles are above the flat connecting part, the latter two-thirds of the nacelles look like see each other fine.
Nacelles with clearance circled in blue. Protruding disk of primary hull is quite forward and does not obscure all the way.
But final word: we aren't beholden to the rules of Gene. This is a fiction quest. The guidelines laid down by Gene aren't the final word. This is a relatively minor matter where even the makers themselves have broken it. So, design to your heart's desire. I just felt like spending some time working on Trek stuff today.
The 24th century mission scoutship:
Ridiculously not following the guideline. Not even arguable, the cabin interior view when Worf disables Data leaves no room for an interior clearance.
The Nebula-class:
Angle that might show clearance...
...and angle that doesn't. Former image is VOY, latter image is TNG. Probably needed to extend the nacelle pylons down a little more on the model. (Baseless speculation, TNG model makers didn't get the memo, but VOY CGI modelers did.) There's a slight Excelsior-type tail on the secondary hull on the Nebula that gives a little clearance, but that's at most one-third clearance. Leaning towards rule breaking on Nebula.
Romulan scout ship is 50/50. There are indications of clearance, but I can concede that it could be... shuttlebays or something?
It's quite dark. Could even be an intake of some sort? Could also be the clearance required.
The Defiant and Oberth have direct photographic evidence to contradict the article.
The Defiant you can literally see the the line of sight in the photo in my previous post.
The Oberth has the forward third obscured by the primary hull, but the Master Systems Display and shots from the show display the line of sight.
The nacelles are above the flat connecting part, the latter two-thirds of the nacelles look like see each other fine.
Nacelles with clearance circled in blue. Protruding disk of primary hull is quite forward and does not obscure all the way.
But final word: we aren't beholden to the rules of Gene. This is a fiction quest. The guidelines laid down by Gene aren't the final word. This is a relatively minor matter where even the makers themselves have broken it. So, design to your heart's desire. I just felt like spending some time working on Trek stuff today.
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- Location
- Australia
Yeah, I'm happy to also consider that people are engaged in various and sundry technobabble - techniques for placing the field off-axis or 'warping' the warp field so it follows around the hull between the nacelles or something along those lines. You can bend the rules as long as you put at least a bit of thought in.
Info - World War 3 - Jenny
Jenny
anonymous user
- Location
- maryland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's a common truism that there are no heroes of World War Three.
In a technical sense, this isn't true. Up until the war's nuclear conclusion, both sides gave out military honors - damage control technicians who gave their lives to save the Liaoning, field medics on Okinawa working under constant missile bombardment, commandos operating in the collapsing Khanate of Afghanistan, the 'last human aces' flying over the South China Sea. But in the end, were their efforts even relevant, when not long after, the warring nations wrecked the Earth?
The heroes Earth remembers - among them the mayors of Bozeman, Calgary, Keelung, and San Francisco, the party secretary for Guangxi, the president of the United States of Africa, and the director of the IPCC - are postwar heroes, heroes of the recovery efforts. And, of course, there's Zephram Cochrane, whose momentous test of warp drive came a decade after the conclusion of the war.
Most humans don't like to remember World War Three. They learn about the subject in school, of course, but humans like to think they've moved on, past the hatreds and petty nationalism that drove the world to nuclear war. Still, if you know where to look, the war is remembered: Hiroshima's Peace Memorial and the Minot Cenotaph; permanent museum exhibits in Dayton, Kunming, Kabul, Wellington; annual memorial ceremonies in College Park, Langfang, Leningrad, Oakland. Admiral Kahurangi famously was forced to skip attendance of a ceremony in Geneva marking the 250th anniversary of the end of the war due to the Dunwich IV incident.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I doubt this was the message that was intended, but what I got from that is that TBG Humanity is a bunch of pretentious and arrogant arseholes who dismiss the sacrifices of those who gave up their lives in service to their people.
Seriously, my first thought was "Wow, what a bunch of pretentious jerks."
Seriously, my first thought was "Wow, what a bunch of pretentious jerks."
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- Location
- Infraspace
That was the configuration for the original Renaissance design I based my work on; whoever created that probably took inspiration from the same Phase II Enterprise that Discovery is based on. It works much better in DIS style than TNG!
WWIII was senseless, pointless and disastrous. It doesn't deserve patriotic whitewashing any more than WWI did. The people who fought in it were victims, not heros, and speaking of their "sacrifices" in service of something is almost disrespectful in that it twists their purposeless deaths into a thing to be honored rather than morned. That's my takeaway.
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's hard to justify honoring their sacrifices when if they'd all stayed home maybe the earth wouldn't have been blown to shit.
Here's what honoring the dead of WWI should sound like. I suspect WWIII differs only in scale, and in that the timely intervention of the Vulcans prevented it from ever happening on Earth again.
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Generic_Generica
Notice me Senpai~
- Location
- Right behind you
You're comparing WWIII to the previous two when you should really be comparing it to something like, Fallout's Great War. Or like, the Holocaust.
And even that's kind of a shitty comparison. It's the kind of horrific event that left huge friggin' scars on the whole of humanity and it's understandable why people generally don't want to memorialize such a horrific event.
Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
They might not want to, but because it was such a terrible thing, they really, really should.
One does not learn by forgetting one's mistakes.