Plus, frankly the argument that more diversity causes polities to break up into endless civil wars, even when there is little or no competition for resources and little or no effort to coerce and control the citizenry... um... how shall I say this...

This notion appears to me to be both factually incorrect, and possessed of a faint aroma of fascism.

I certainly doubt that species as unequal as those depicted here could make a working polity. If you want to call me a fascist that's fine.

But, like, my doubts should be in the same category as my doubts about FTL drive. They don't make sense in Star Trek, because the premise of the show is that it works this way. I don't become LESS doubtful if you add the secret sauce of a conspiracy of maniacs who occasionally commit war crimes.
 
I certainly doubt that species as unequal as those depicted here could make a working polity.
Is the basis of your reasoning that (for example) in a broadly meritocratic political system, you would expect one or a few Federation member species to naturally dominate the others?

If you want to call me a fascist that's fine.
It's not that you are, it's that the specific individual argument in question was at some point in time fished out of a fascist ocean, packaged, repackaged, passed around, and at some point passed through your hands.

This is very much a criticism of the argument- namely that it is recognizable as a piece of a deeply flawed political philosophy, and which should be regarded as dubious in its own right- not of you as a man. There are a lot of fascist or proto-fascist ideas floating around in the broader Western political culture, because fascism wasn't a self-contained benign tumor that could be excised simply and easily by World War Two. It was the product of ideas and impulses and traditions of thought that predated it and did not entirely die with it, and it spawned successor movements that didn't entirely die out either.
 
Is the basis of your reasoning that (for example) in a broadly meritocratic political system, you would expect one or a few Federation member species to naturally dominate the others?

It's not that you are, it's that the specific individual argument in question was at some point in time fished out of a fascist ocean, packaged, repackaged, passed around, and at some point passed through your hands.

This is very much a criticism of the argument- namely that it is recognizable as a piece of a deeply flawed political philosophy, and which should be regarded as dubious in its own right- not of you as a man. There are a lot of fascist or proto-fascist ideas floating around in the broader Western political culture, because fascism wasn't a self-contained benign tumor that could be excised simply and easily by World War Two. It was the product of ideas and impulses and traditions of thought that predated it and did not entirely die with it, and it spawned successor movements that didn't entirely die out either.

I mean, humans are often accused of dominating the others, but it's always been kind of ambiguous how much of that is just those guys saying that the Federation is humanity and their clients races because they're jealous/nervous. Particularly since that fits them better so it might just be projection.
 
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I mean, humans are often accused of dominating the others, but it's always been kind of ambiguous how much of that is just those guys saying that the Federation is humanity and their clients races because they're jealous/nervous.
That's fair.

Of course, in canon we have the Watsonian problem that while the Federation theoretically consists of a zillion species, the actors who play them are all human, and it's not feasible for a typical television show to use makeup or CGI to turn every scene into a glorious xenophilic romp like the iconic Mos Eisley cantina scene in Star Wars.

We don't have that problem in TBG, and as a result we manage a much higher level of diversity, to the point where "the Federation is humanity" becomes laughable. I have an explanation for how Starfleet became so super-dominated by humans, personally, though:

Basically, around the 2230s when Earth more or less caught up with Andor and Tellar in terms of technology and surpassed Vulcan as an industrial hub (if not the other way around), they started feeling a bit insecure about their role in the Federation and super over-compensated with support for the Explorer Corps. Whereas the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites were holding back a lot of their 'best and brightest' personnel for the species fleets, or for civilian life, Earth was systematically throwing talent into the Explorer Corps.

One or two generations of officers later, this resulted in Earthlings being greatly overrepresented in the upper echelons of Starfleet, specifically, rivaling the Andorians with a much stronger martial tradition driving them to enlist. They were also generally getting promoted over Andorians' heads, because Andor was sending military tacticians while Earth was sending, well, Explorer Corps types. The Tellarites and Vulcans were more comfortable with the 'Earthified' vision of Starfleet than the 'Andorized' vision, so Earthling captains and admirals were seen as compromise candidates whereas Andorians were the risky, gung-ho, militaristic choices.

The decline of Andorian martial culture in the late 2200s would probably make an interesting case study.

Of course, this resulted in something of a counterreaction later on when the Federation members collectively realized just how much of Starfleet's upper echelons was human, to the point where it had become ridiculous.
 
Is the basis of your reasoning that (for example) in a broadly meritocratic political system, you would expect one or a few Federation member species to naturally dominate the others?

It's not that you are, it's that the specific individual argument in question was at some point in time fished out of a fascist ocean, packaged, repackaged, passed around, and at some point passed through your hands.

This is very much a criticism of the argument- namely that it is recognizable as a piece of a deeply flawed political philosophy, and which should be regarded as dubious in its own right- not of you as a man. There are a lot of fascist or proto-fascist ideas floating around in the broader Western political culture, because fascism wasn't a self-contained benign tumor that could be excised simply and easily by World War Two. It was the product of ideas and impulses and traditions of thought that predated it and did not entirely die with it, and it spawned successor movements that didn't entirely die out either.

I'm less 'Dominant Member Species' and more 'politics is hard, much harder when people are very different'.

Like, I'll parody the classic racist ranting.

Lots of Apiata are moving to Vulcan (or Space Goblins to Space Elf land if you prefer). Let's say they reproduce twenty times as fast as Vulcans. We'll stipulate that the Vulcan variant of logic isn't super persuasive to them, and they prefer to get their opinions from their queens.

I don't think that those are crazy assumptions, certainly not beyond the stuff that the show has trotted out. Like, the Betazeds are telepathic, right?

So, like, now what? Do Vulcans just accept that from now on their gov will be made of Apiata (who outcompete Vulcans for Apiata votes) and pursue policies that attract Apiata votes, even if those are illogical by Vulcan standards? Do they go alt right and start chanting mathematical formula that round to 'they will not replace us'? Do they just retreat into their holodecks. or maybe do a Science War Crime?

Or maybe Star Fleet doesn't allow the migrations, Star Fleet ICE? Kick the can down the road a bit? Do a three fifths compromise deal, where only so many Apiata votes equal a Vulcan vote? None of those sound remotely in character, but...

I'm not postulating a deliberate and sinister Apiata Quiverfull here, just species being different and that fact giving one or the other an advantage using basic "one sophont, one vote" rules, and the control of Star Fleet/The Federation standing in as a limited resource in a mostly post scarcity world.

Like, presumably Data votes after Measure Of A man, and dude can build as many of himself as he feels like and survive/thrive anywhere, oh and also he lives forever. He's a cool guy, but are he and his buds so cool that we want them running the entire Federation? If not, at what point do they stop voting? Do they have an obligation to listen if someone tells them that they aren't allowed to have any more kids? Who would possibly make that call, and by what authority, but if no one does how do you stop the Data Fork Block from being the majority of all sentient life whenever they feel like it?

I get that the above sounds a lot like human racist talk, which, fair, but I do think Star Trek's variations are way more extreme than anything the real world allows. I can think of lots of answers to the examples above, but they all feel like much more politics than the Federation is depicted as having, and like they'd be the start of arguments, not the end of them. I believe that there would be lots and lots of civil wars, mostly caused by populists stirring up resentment of other races who they see as unfairly advantaged by a system that can't possibly deal with this many incredibly different races.

Bleagh, this feels like politics. I'll give you the last word on this if you decide to answer, since like I said, I don't think it is appropriate to question the assumptions of the setting. I dunno how I stumbled into this.
 
I'm less 'Dominant Member Species' and more 'politics is hard, much harder when people are very different'.

Like, I'll parody the classic racist ranting.

Lots of Apiata are moving to Vulcan (or Space Goblins to Space Elf land if you prefer). Let's say they reproduce twenty times as fast as Vulcans. We'll stipulate that the Vulcan variant of logic isn't super persuasive to them, and they prefer to get their opinions from their queens.
Well, the obvious answer to this case is that the Vulcans and Apiata have significantly different environmental preferences- a Vulcan's idea of a nice environment is probably a rather disagreeable desert to the Apiata, so the Apiata have no desire to settle the favored planets of the Vulcans. And frankly, the Vulcan homeworld itself is kind of ass, environmentally speaking, being kind of burned out from old nuclear wars.

But that's specific; let's zoom out a bit and look at the big picture.

In addition, the Federation exists in part to delineate territorial spheres of influence that avoid situations where one member species ambitiously expands into space and blocks off another member species from having "a room of its own," so to speak.

So Vulcan and some of the systems around Vulcan are property of the Vulcans, effectively, and Vulcans have dibs on colonizing them. The same applies to the Apiata. The Apiata may have an advantage when it comes to expanding into previously unclaimed regions of interstellar space that are effectively astra nullius (e.g. the Gabriel Expanse), but this doesn't prevent the Vulcans from having a degree of regional autonomy and being able to live in a society ordered according to principles that are pleasant to Vulcans.

Basically, to get the kind of scenario you're worried about, you'd need Federation Member A to start indulging in outright settler colonialism on the homeworld and any major colonies belonging to Federation Member B. That's not something the Federation's internal constitution is going to allow. And any species with a manifest-destiny attitude that it has the right to claim all the real estate in space and leave other Federation members nothing other than the ground beneath their feet isn't going to be allowed into the Federation until it is disabused of this notion.

I don't think that those are crazy assumptions, certainly not beyond the stuff that the show has trotted out. Like, the Betazeds are telepathic, right?

So, like, now what? Do Vulcans just accept that from now on their gov will be made of Apiata (who outcompete Vulcans for Apiata votes) and pursue policies that attract Apiata votes, even if those are illogical by Vulcan standards? Do they go alt right and start chanting mathematical formula that round to 'they will not replace us'? Do they just retreat into their holodecks. or maybe do a Science War Crime?

Or maybe Star Fleet doesn't allow the migrations, Star Fleet ICE? Kick the can down the road a bit? Do a three fifths compromise deal, where only so many Apiata votes equal a Vulcan vote? None of those sound remotely in character, but...

I'm not postulating a deliberate and sinister Apiata Quiverfull here, just species being different and that fact giving one or the other an advantage using basic "one sophont, one vote" rules, and the control of Star Fleet/The Federation standing in as a limited resource in a mostly post scarcity world.
Yes, but you're also making the tacit assumption that swarming outbreeding is a normal behavior for certain sapient species and that they will naturally populate all of Federation space with swarms of themselves?

One could equally well argue that for natural sapient species that have independently figured out warp drive, uncontrolled impulsive breeding that the species collectively refuses to keep within limits so that it can remain within an agreed-upon territory for the foreseeable future is a huge disadvantage. Explosive-breeding swarm species, if they develop sapience at all, are liable to overrun and exhaust their homeworld too quickly to discover warp drive.

Arguably, this is one of the reasons the Federation doesn't uplift prewarp species. They don't want to find themselves in a position like the Citadel from Mass Effect did with the krogans. The Citadel, having actively encouraged the krogans to reproduce rapidly and take an active role in interstellar affairs, found that the krogans became a destabilizing threat- and one with an entitlement complex. Leaving the krogans alone until their culture stabilized somehow would probably have been beneficial to the Citadel, if not for the urgent short-term need for janissaries to fight the rachni.

Like, presumably Data votes after Measure Of A man, and dude can build as many of himself as he feels like and survive/thrive anywhere, oh and also he lives forever. He's a cool guy, but are he and his buds so cool that we want them running the entire Federation? If not, at what point do they stop voting? Do they have an obligation to listen if someone tells them that they aren't allowed to have any more kids? Who would possibly make that call, and by what authority, but if no one does how do you stop the Data Fork Block from being the majority of all sentient life whenever they feel like it?
If this starts to look like it's actually going to become a problem, presumably the Data Fork Block can (under TBG-style Federation rules) be treated as a 'Federation member' or similar entity in its own right, and negotiate rights to a certain share of Federation territory and resources, without being extended unlimited rights to copy themselves indefinitely and consume everything.

I get that the above sounds a lot like human racist talk, which, fair, but I do think Star Trek's variations are way more extreme than anything the real world allows. I can think of lots of answers to the examples above, but they all feel like much more politics than the Federation is depicted as having, and like they'd be the start of arguments, not the end of them. I believe that there would be lots and lots of civil wars, mostly caused by populists stirring up resentment of other races who they see as unfairly advantaged by a system that can't possibly deal with this many incredibly different races.
The Federation basically just handles this by negotiating agreements that require all the Federation species to respect each others' boundaries and refrain from activities that might threaten or destabilize those boundaries in an unwelcome way. If the Vulcans feel like inviting a billion Apiata to live on Vulcan, and a billion Apiata want to go, that's fine... but having a billion Apiata move in on the Vulcans when there is no obvious pressing need for them to do so is undesirable. If some disaster overtook the Apiata homeworld and they had billions of refugees to be somehow transported across space, that might be different, but then that would be a major logistical challenge in its own right that would be dealt with separately.
 
Okay, @Walter, can you seriously not imagine how a race of slow-breeding, long lived people famous for their scientific and philosophical prowess and a race of fast-breeding, selfless, hardworking laborers and soldiers might coexist?

A fully integrated vulcan/apiata society would be more than competitive with any canon Alpha or Beta quadrant power. Probably including the Federation.
 
So here's the thing, and all within the context of TBG...

We have an Intelligence service. They operate with a lot of secrecy, to the point of using Office numbers rather than specific names publicly. They have two key restraints - an Audit office (internal affairs/inspectorate) and a temporal office. Those answer separately to different authorities. They are complemented by a Diplomatic Service intelligence arm whose findings can be weighed alongside SFI's at a Council level.

They have been entrusted with tools to handle a situation that is violent. They have not been entrusted with authority to create a situation that is violent where none had existed. To the extent that realpolitik requires, SFI can provide a spectrum of useful options. But the mission statement of SFI is not to guide, but to inform, to protect and to enact the will of the Federation Council as interpreted via the constitution and the Starfleet Charter.

Whenever the head of SFI acts in defiance of broader control it is in the full knowledge that they off their career into the hands of Commander, Starfleet, for use in great peril, not as a customary act.

It is not necessary to allow an intelligence service self rule to survive in a dangerous galaxy. It is not a requirement of multi-species cooperation to mix blood and secret tyranny for mortar.

What would you find to be proud of in an entity that cannot trust its own ideas?
 
The Federation has a commanding technological and industrial lead, and everybody around them knows it. The Enterprises aren't true warships, none of them. They're armed research cruisers meant to go to hostile locations and fight off things that try to eat or otherwise destroy them.
I have to take issue with this. The TOS Constitution class Heavy Cruiser was most definitely a warship. It was also an extremely capable exploration and research vessel but TOS itself leaves no doubts about what it was. Now it is a towering example of your first statement there in that it was as good at exploring and research as it was but its primary reason for existing was to be a big enough stick that the Klingons and Romulans stayed on their side of the border, and it worked.
 
But that's specific; let's zoom out a bit and look at the big picture.

In addition, the Federation exists in part to delineate territorial spheres of influence that avoid situations where one member species ambitiously expands into space and blocks off another member species from having "a room of its own," so to speak.

So Vulcan and some of the systems around Vulcan are property of the Vulcans, effectively, and Vulcans have dibs on colonizing them. The same applies to the Apiata. The Apiata may have an advantage when it comes to expanding into previously unclaimed regions of interstellar space that are effectively astra nullius (e.g. the Gabriel Expanse), but this doesn't prevent the Vulcans from having a degree of regional autonomy and being able to live in a society ordered according to principles that are pleasant to Vulcans.

There's actually quite a bit of Anarchist and Socialist theory that deals with this sort of thing that I am 1) Too fatigued to go find right now, 2) Probably superseded by a mix of theory from various members, and lived experience.
 
I'm less 'Dominant Member Species' and more 'politics is hard, much harder when people are very different'.

Like, I'll parody the classic racist ranting.

Lots of Apiata are moving to Vulcan (or Space Goblins to Space Elf land if you prefer). Let's say they reproduce twenty times as fast as Vulcans. We'll stipulate that the Vulcan variant of logic isn't super persuasive to them, and they prefer to get their opinions from their queens.

I don't think that those are crazy assumptions, certainly not beyond the stuff that the show has trotted out. Like, the Betazeds are telepathic, right?

So, like, now what? Do Vulcans just accept that from now on their gov will be made of Apiata (who outcompete Vulcans for Apiata votes) and pursue policies that attract Apiata votes, even if those are illogical by Vulcan standards? Do they go alt right and start chanting mathematical formula that round to 'they will not replace us'? Do they just retreat into their holodecks. or maybe do a Science War Crime?

Or maybe Star Fleet doesn't allow the migrations, Star Fleet ICE? Kick the can down the road a bit? Do a three fifths compromise deal, where only so many Apiata votes equal a Vulcan vote? None of those sound remotely in character, but...

I'm not postulating a deliberate and sinister Apiata Quiverfull here, just species being different and that fact giving one or the other an advantage using basic "one sophont, one vote" rules, and the control of Star Fleet/The Federation standing in as a limited resource in a mostly post scarcity world.

Like, presumably Data votes after Measure Of A man, and dude can build as many of himself as he feels like and survive/thrive anywhere, oh and also he lives forever. He's a cool guy, but are he and his buds so cool that we want them running the entire Federation? If not, at what point do they stop voting? Do they have an obligation to listen if someone tells them that they aren't allowed to have any more kids? Who would possibly make that call, and by what authority, but if no one does how do you stop the Data Fork Block from being the majority of all sentient life whenever they feel like it?

I get that the above sounds a lot like human racist talk, which, fair, but I do think Star Trek's variations are way more extreme than anything the real world allows. I can think of lots of answers to the examples above, but they all feel like much more politics than the Federation is depicted as having, and like they'd be the start of arguments, not the end of them. I believe that there would be lots and lots of civil wars, mostly caused by populists stirring up resentment of other races who they see as unfairly advantaged by a system that can't possibly deal with this many incredibly different races.

Bleagh, this feels like politics. I'll give you the last word on this if you decide to answer, since like I said, I don't think it is appropriate to question the assumptions of the setting. I dunno how I stumbled into this.

I guess the other thing I'll point out is that the Council is deliberately disproportional.


In TBG, "Major Worlds" each get one councilor, chosen by direct election. However, the population of each major world is vastly different, from billions on worlds like Earth or Alukk to maybe a thousand times less than that on worlds like Solitude. And each councilor gets one vote in the Council itself. In canon/beta canon, each polity got one councilor. The method of choosing the councilor fell to the individual polity. Some were directly elected, some were appointed by heads of parliament, and so on. The structure was similar to the United Nations rather than to any democratic government. Either depiction, the representation given by councilors is not proportional to the number of votes each represents.

Add in member polity governments, and the structure implies that the Council (and other federal organs like Starfleet and the FDS) are designed to deal with foreign policy, promote regional interests over popular interests, and manage cross-federation administration... but not to govern each world. They likely avoid dealing with matters on a member polity level or lower.

Furthermore, each nation-state within the Federation manages its own government by its own method. Could be anything from multi-chamber parliaments to direct decision-making with no elected figures in the government at all. While we suppose items like freedom of movement, I couldn't say if those freedoms are absolute or equal everywhere. The fact is that the Federation is a compromise at every level to allow some federal control, but still allow self-governance from each internal polity. This is, as you say, politics. We don't see, say, the Houses of Betazed meeting and putting pressure on their councilors to make decisions in national interest because it's not subject of narrative focus.

I would suggest that the Council and other federal organs (FDS, Starfleet, others) are the structure designed to prop up this teetering edifice and stop it fracturing horribly. If everyone got along then these institutions wouldn't need to exist.


In short, the Federation is actually much more decentralized than the Starfleet perspective or the focus on the Council in this quest suggests. It is an actual Federation of nation-states, and the powers that have been suborned to the Council are to do with presenting a united front to outside and preventing conflict internally.

So fortunately or unfortunately, the structure of the Federation does in fact seem to involve "much more politics than the Federation is depicted as having", because every depiction of the Federation focuses on the highest level picture. Nothing is actually shown in the weeds, because the camera is on Starfleet which is a supra-national organization filled with people who believe in supra-nationalism. TBG digs a bit deeper at times, see things like Master of Orion, or how members all still maintain their own militaries (that are forbidden from crossing state lines), or how each member economy mobilizes separately, or how colony rushes have to be negotiated by polity. But Star Trek in general just glosses over the structure as a matter of narrative focus.
 
I'll note that although Starfleet has a very hefty human influence, that is only one of the pillars of the Federation structure. You are Commander, Starfleet, so you see the Galaxy from this human influenced prism, but if this were To Boldly Talk, the split-infinitive all about the Federation Diplomatic Service, you may find yourself wondering if the Galaxy is apparently 50% Vulanoid or Betazoid by volume.

And of course your Presidents have been Andorian, Caitian, and Betazoid.
 
It's probably going to be historically notable that the only non-human admiral in the quest's history has been a miserable failure under whose watch the Federation was massively infiltrated by cyberghosts and an increasingly militant foreign policy threatened to draw the Federation into numerous conflicts, tho.
 
It's probably going to be historically notable that the only non-human admiral in the quest's history has been a miserable failure under whose watch the Federation was massively infiltrated by cyberghosts and an increasingly militant foreign policy threatened to draw the Federation into numerous conflicts, tho.
I don't think that can fairly be pinned on the admiral.

We made contact with the Harmony during the Sulu Admiralty, maybe even back during the Sousa Admiralty, and once we met them, they were inevitably going to try this, and it was extremely unlikely that we'd have been able to stop them cold based on what we now know.
 
The extent to which ch'Tharvasse holds personal responsibility for Starfleet's tardy recognition of the Harmony threat is in my opinion fairly limited. Politically, it happened on his watch so he stood down, but the toolset to counter them also began construction under his watch. No doubt the Council is hoping for another non-human Admiral they can boast of more clear successes with, however.
 
There is also that ongoing commitments versus the Cardassians really did pull a lot of resources that way, that those commitments were badly needed, and Starfleet was aware that there was something skeevy with the Harmony (Taurians and all that) but didn't think it was more than the usual skullduggery with a slower and more insidious bend. Precautions were taken.

Cyberghosts compromising Starfleet and other federal bodies with nanotech was simply both very unexpected and somewhat outside Starfleet's historical body of knowledge. The Cyberghosts particularly so. It resulting in an early advantage for the Harmony of Horizon is fair, and they've exploited it well.

It's just that as far as we can tell this does mean that their major advantage has now largely played out though, and the Federation's major advantage has not.
 
There is also that ongoing commitments versus the Cardassians really did pull a lot of resources that way, that those commitments were badly needed, and Starfleet was aware that there was something skeevy with the Harmony (Taurians and all that) but didn't think it was more than the usual skullduggery with a slower and more insidious bend. Precautions were taken.

Cyberghosts compromising Starfleet and other federal bodies with nanotech was simply both very unexpected and somewhat outside Starfleet's historical body of knowledge. The Cyberghosts particularly so. It resulting in an early advantage for the Harmony of Horizon is fair, and they've exploited it well.

It's just that as far as we can tell this does mean that their major advantage has now largely played out though, and the Federation's major advantage has not.

Well, probably.
 
It's probably going to be historically notable that the only non-human admiral in the quest's history has been a miserable failure under whose watch the Federation was massively infiltrated by cyberghosts and an increasingly militant foreign policy threatened to draw the Federation into numerous conflicts, tho.
The extent to which ch'Tharvasse holds personal responsibility for Starfleet's tardy recognition of the Harmony threat is in my opinion fairly limited. Politically, it happened on his watch so he stood down, but the toolset to counter them also began construction under his watch. No doubt the Council is hoping for another non-human Admiral they can boast of more clear successes with, however.

Wait, I thought that he wasn't the first non-human Admiral, rather there hasn't been an Admiral from a species outside the Big Four (Vulcans, Humans, Andorians and Tellarites). Although I must admit the 24th century has been rather Human dominated in Starfleet.

Ultimately, of course, long-term Federation stability is ensured by the Horta.

I for one am looking forward to the first Horta cadet - with their massive lifespans they could live and serve Starfleet through the entirety of the Quest! My guess is that since they may lack formal education, it may have taken them longer to be up to an Academy standard or they may have chosen the more patient route (which probably doesn't have the same level of expectations) by moving up the enlisted ranks.
 
Wait, I thought that he wasn't the first non-human Admiral, rather there hasn't been an Admiral from a species outside the Big Four (Vulcans, Humans, Andorians and Tellarites). Although I must admit the 24th century has been rather Human dominated in Starfleet.



I for one am looking forward to the first Horta cadet - with their massive lifespans they could live and serve Starfleet through the entirety of the Quest! My guess is that since they may lack formal education, it may have taken them longer to be up to an Academy standard or they may have chosen the more patient route (which probably doesn't have the same level of expectations) by moving up the enlisted ranks.

I was assuming there were already a few, but they were very rare as Horta are a minor race. The few we have seen have not been lacking education. That said, I'm slowly working on an expy Legion of Superheros, and the race of 'Matter eater lad' should not be hard to guess.
 
Your entire scenario involves denying people those same rights. Putting aside the ludicrous scale, you'd be denying even very basic rights for someone's entire life in a dark-ages society, and only giving them full citizenship privleges after they die. It's the most bizzare citizenship test I've ever seen.

Firstly, sorry for being so slow to respond to your argument. For that, I have no excuse because I had an answer but haven't got 'round to posting it until now.

The recurrent issue with AI in Star Trek appears at least to my observations to be no matter how well-intentioned the programming the AI reaches conclusions based in blue and orange morality systems and goals that don't value/care for at least organic sapient life or seek to assist sapients like us in ways that end up from the organics' perceptive degrades their quality of life often leading to terrible consequences.

Therefore my idea is that by incubating AIs in these sims (and more than just uplift sims, although they were the first to come to mind) could at least ground their mindsets in something as close to ours as possible in the hope that this can lead to mutual understanding, empathy and if not the same overlapping value systems so synthetics and organics can cooperate together over the long term. And a sim gives us a controlled environment to work, although to create people like us we may need to create the environment that created us which a Utopia may not create.

TL;DR Embero AI are raised like normal Fed kids (and maybe live normal Fed lives) so they can think like us (even if it's thought processes later change to something completely alien it still knows how to at least simulate our perceptive) so communication, negotiation and perhaps cooperation become possible.

May edit later for clarity, not to happy with the wording but I needed to get something out, please ask if this didn't make sense or you disagree.
 
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