So he hasn't hit his first pon farr yet?
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
So are the occasional "duplicate Earths that went along a different history" we saw in TOS the remnants of discarded timelines? Like the "Pax Romana" one or the nuclear-devastated Earth of "Omega Glory"?
Maelore
Totaly not a Romulan
- Location
- Fairfax, VA
Could have just been precursor aliens being dicks.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Could be some of both. Probably is, with how weird the setting is.
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
Hmm, I think I actually can understand it. The Time War messed with many of time's flex points, while things like the formation of the Federation and Captain Kirk's disappearance were fixed points in time, while things like the classes of ships or the species that make up the Federation are in flex, so changed due to the Time War. Basically, the mechanics of time in the Star Trek universe follows the same rules as in Doctor Who. I mean, in any instance of time travel in Star Trek, it has never been in contact with a past self or future self in the same time period. I also don't believe any time traveler has, as far as we know, read about the time period he/she traveled to beforehand.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I assume that he has, but is also yet unattached at this time, make of that as you would.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
I don't believe that this is either proper to discuss here, nor is it something that the example we stand to, Councilor Stesk, would approve of. Please leave any talk of relationship statuses to whatever version of this quest exists upon QQ.So he just has a Vulcan Tinder account or something?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Even Councilor Stesk is going to have trouble convincing this bunch to give up opportunities for waifu wars.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Only thing more intense and desperate than the Temporal Hot War is the Waifu Hot (Or Not) War.Even Councilor Stesk is going to have trouble convincing this bunch to give up opportunities for waifu wars.
You mean Pon'darr.So he just has a Vulcan Tinder account or something?
It features matching by Preferred Discipline of Focus, and you swipe left or right on an image summarising how their VSA Universal Personality-Aptitude Scale (VUPAS) Matrix complements yours. Many Vulcans who came of age in the 23rd Century consider this highly superficial and illogical.
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- Location
- Australia
But doesn't the purpose of the rule stem from morality? The Prime Directive is a moral decision that any benefit from interfering with a non-warp capable civilisation is outweighed by the damage such interference can cause.
It's not the most optimal (uplift everyone to ultise the most reasources as quickly as possible) as far as we can foresee in phyisical terms, but the belief is something more intangible is lost even when uplift goes perfectly.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
No, because we don't believe that the uplift going perfectly is a thing that happens in the general case, and we have good evidence this is true. We've seen numerous cases in the quest where even incidental contact has had ruinous costs to a society, not in a cultural sense, but in terms of lives lost and physical destruction inflicted; the major attempted uplifts we've seen have frequently involved purging of opposing people, not just ideas.
Even a supposedly "successful" uplift can well end up being a time bomb. When one of the defining features of a relationship is an immense vulnerability, violence is usually the result. The Hishmeri, after all, are an uplifted species that supposedly went right...until they turned on the Imelak. So, for that matter, are the Klingons; uplifted to be soldiers successfully, with the ultimate proof they were so good at it they managed to destroy the people who uplifted them.
You're taking Voyager and Enterprise's weird, amoral take on the Prime Directive as religious writ regardless of the situation, vs. the one actually to hand, which is more practically oriented and about minimizing harm. (Which is why when people break it, it's usually because someone already has and the best that can be done is to try to undo the previous.)
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I would argue that it is more an acknowledgement that they don't know how to perfectly uplift a civilization. Basically every example the Federation has encountered has been a bad one. So knowing they don't know how to uplift a civilization without seriously damaging it and seeing all the examples of just how badly it can go they decided better to just not.
Which makes sense. To the Federation the odds of making things worse outweigh the odds of making things better so they elect to not interfere. Except for the cases in which it is undeniably clear that the odds of making things worse no longer outweigh the odds of making things better: For example a civilization in the middle of extinction as it is very hard to make things worse then "And then everyone died".
- Location
- Australia
Perhaps the problem is that uplifts we know of have been for the purpose of raising servants rather than equals. As the uplifted seem to in the best circumstances they serve "too well" but in an equal society the need of the uplifters to be better than the uplifted to protect their lordship and the incentive of the uplifted to disrupt the status quo for greater freedom is removed. Assmuing the uplift otherwise goes smoothly.
- Location
- Earth
It's not only a matter of purpose, it's multiple other huge issues too. Here's one: There can be no "one size fits all" method to uplifting. Every species will be different in temperament, experiences, physical abilities, etc. Lots of variables there. It's really hard to learn from the mistakes of uplifting if making mistakes means a whole species is messed up, and then after that few or none of the lessons can be applied to another species. And there will be mistakes because getting such a large project right on the first try doesn't seem realistic, and the first try is all that exists for each species.
There are others, but I'll let someone else put them up.
There are others, but I'll let someone else put them up.
- Location
- Australia
Perhaps one of the reasons civilisations would want to simulate less advanced civilisations is to experiment and design the optimal path to uplift for that civilisation IRL.
- Location
- Earth
If the quality of the simulation is high enough, which it should be for accuracy, then are the created simulated beings not considered as sapient and alive as the real thing?
And in that case, there might be something morally objectionable to simply create sapient life for experimental purposes. Especially if they'll be subjected to disastrous possibilities.
And in that case, there might be something morally objectionable to simply create sapient life for experimental purposes. Especially if they'll be subjected to disastrous possibilities.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Is this a conversation about the Prime Directive, or about species uplift?
The Prime Directive is much broader than "don't uplift", there are many other ways to violate it.
Likewise, as raised here, there appear to be many sound reasons to avoid uplift, even if your advanced species doesn't subscribe to a general non-interference policy like the PD.
They aren't simple polar opposites, though granted they represent very different points on any imagined "interference scale".
The Prime Directive is much broader than "don't uplift", there are many other ways to violate it.
Likewise, as raised here, there appear to be many sound reasons to avoid uplift, even if your advanced species doesn't subscribe to a general non-interference policy like the PD.
They aren't simple polar opposites, though granted they represent very different points on any imagined "interference scale".
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It applies on the level of the individual starship captain and starship, but once the report gets back to the Federation at large it becomes a political question of whether humans are going to use their political clout to say "these are still our people; we'll take care of our own" or not. Which is going to be heavily influenced by the exact circumstances.
The Prime Directive is for Starfleet; the Federation has laws, which can be lobbied to be changed or have exceptions made or a court ruling that they don't really apply like any laws.
EDIT: Though it seems in general, if the humans remember having interstellar technology and hold an unbroken cultural and historical perspective of the same, then the PD does not apply even if they currently don't have the resources/ability to build starships. We've seen this in both TNG episodes and in this quest.
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Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Ironjaws
The day was late, the sun lowering on the green orb of Dobieti. The winds lightly flowed past the soldiers all arrayed in their formations, armor slight glinting in the softer light, as they maintained their funerary march. Their metal, swords and armor alike, had all been black lacquered and dulled in mourning. For the Snakebane was dead-- her blood, too thick for any to survive losing, was splattered on granite alley, staining gray walls red.
Meanwhile, not even a mile away, amid the new Ashalla Refugee District, in a dark, grim warehouse, rented under false pretences, all the worth of a woman's life was tossed ungently before her half-killer, the orderer if not the shooter. A Chrystovian among Cardassians, a scientist among the ignorant, a villain among henchmen. She let the medals and honors fall to the filthy ground, except for one, pocketed as a souvenir.
She looked. She examined with a cunning eye the material. Unscrewed, unstuck, tested what she could.
"Begin Recording, Subject: The Ironjaws."
And then Alvas Dras, special attaché to the Cardassian Union Ambassador, began to speak.
"The Pact and Union have, historically, regarded the Dobieti as a species of nostalgic, overly-sentimental primitives-- techno-barbarians, gussied up under a layer of honor, and weak ones at that-- incapable of pushing the point home unless literally at the point of a sword."
She paused for a moment, let the words hang even as she considered what she would say next.
"However, I believe a more thorough examination of the Dobetians reveals that this is not simply a pretty facade of warriorhood they have claimed-- underneath that honorable, law riven exterior, they have a martial drive to win which is most admirable, and certainly willing to grasp modern methods to do it, and to do so with apolbm.
Take, for example, the Ironjaws-- an elite group of anti-boarder and Gendarmerie, deployed on ships in war, and more importantly acting against our efforts and agents in the Commonwealth, representing the spearhead in anti-corruption efforts as well. A relatively new such organization, founded only a few decades past, they are currently under the temporary command of Lord Kyurol Vinochech, while the Prince and Lord Vanyk are...away. More importantly for the current record, their armor and armament, yes, must seem, at first glance, crude and archaic-- but it is not so.
First, the armor."
She gripped the helmet and looked into the eyes, covered by something thick and black.
"Yes, it resembles something medieval crawled out of the depths of time, and about as useful as such would be. But do not let that fool you. The eyes alone have lenses capable of three different forms of vision overlay-- biometric, thermal, and nightvision. There is also the matter of the integrated comms piece, which while not particularly special, is fairly high quality. More important than any of that is an integrated tactical suite offering up to the minute advice and scans.
Then the armor below. Look first to the arms. Integrated into both arms are tasers for nonlethal work--" there is a light crackle and spark as they activate, barely picked up by the device, "and blades, for the exact opposite." There is an unfriendly shuuunt as said blades pop out from the gauntlets, vicious sharp, worryingly long, and blindingly shiny-- certainly not by accident, well able to disorient the foe.
"Next, look to the cuirasse. It can stop most glancing blows, a disruptor pistol from short range, and provides excellent protection to the few instant stopping points the Dobetians have. More importantly, it can block the weapons the Dobiet themselves wield, something that has proven invaluable as they purge elements overly-sympathetic to us from their government, where they can. This has been under the Prince, I remind you all, leading me to once again state that we should remove him from play when we can.
Moving down we come to the legs. They, again, have proven annoyingly effective at what seems to be their real task-- help the Ironjaws overpower our agents in safety. As well, it has an inbuilt holster, utility belt, and scabbard.
All of this, to be clear, is fireproof, insulated, and shock-absorbent, along with a number of unknown capabilities for any single member-- the Ironjaws do enjoy their personalization.
Finally, the weapons. Firstly, the sword. Two Kilograms of the most advanced metal, worked in the Center Forge in Kahlama, on the largest continent. Sharpened by laser to the keenest possible edge, capable of slicing through the average stone or concrete wall.
Next, the disruptor. A small, pistol shaped weapon, its design is ergonomic, and it is surprisingly powerful, with a recoil to match."
She snapped her fingers, remembering something of no little import.
"I should note that according to my contacts, the Ironjaws have begun experimenting with Federation style phasers, after the arrival of Task Force Righteous, perhaps part of the regime's attempt to curry favor with the Federation in order to secure backing against us.
I maintain two suggestions to the ambassador and to the wider State, as the result of this and my other examinations.
Firstly, any intervention should be either so subtle and unseen that none can tell it ever happened-- or so above board and without shadow that none may question its legality and legitimacy. Any method that is both obvious and even potentially illegal or illegitimate represents a potential fuel for Rebellion and insurrection on a monstrous, wealth devouring scale-- which would make our current troubles with the Bajorans-- absolutely miserable as they are-- seem to have a sibling, just as bloodthirsty.
Secondly, the Prince must be taken out of play, at least concurrently with, if not before, any such intervention else he may well represent the nascent seed of an insurrection that would take years to put down, would tie up far too much of our efforts, and simply generally be to the good of no one.
Further, while I currently believe most of the stories of how he acquired his nom de guerre are untrue, I will continue to search for more conclusive evidence, either for or against.
This is Alvas Dras, signing off."
--
Done on my phone, so I imagine the grammar's questionable.
The day was late, the sun lowering on the green orb of Dobieti. The winds lightly flowed past the soldiers all arrayed in their formations, armor slight glinting in the softer light, as they maintained their funerary march. Their metal, swords and armor alike, had all been black lacquered and dulled in mourning. For the Snakebane was dead-- her blood, too thick for any to survive losing, was splattered on granite alley, staining gray walls red.
Meanwhile, not even a mile away, amid the new Ashalla Refugee District, in a dark, grim warehouse, rented under false pretences, all the worth of a woman's life was tossed ungently before her half-killer, the orderer if not the shooter. A Chrystovian among Cardassians, a scientist among the ignorant, a villain among henchmen. She let the medals and honors fall to the filthy ground, except for one, pocketed as a souvenir.
She looked. She examined with a cunning eye the material. Unscrewed, unstuck, tested what she could.
"Begin Recording, Subject: The Ironjaws."
And then Alvas Dras, special attaché to the Cardassian Union Ambassador, began to speak.
"The Pact and Union have, historically, regarded the Dobieti as a species of nostalgic, overly-sentimental primitives-- techno-barbarians, gussied up under a layer of honor, and weak ones at that-- incapable of pushing the point home unless literally at the point of a sword."
She paused for a moment, let the words hang even as she considered what she would say next.
"However, I believe a more thorough examination of the Dobetians reveals that this is not simply a pretty facade of warriorhood they have claimed-- underneath that honorable, law riven exterior, they have a martial drive to win which is most admirable, and certainly willing to grasp modern methods to do it, and to do so with apolbm.
Take, for example, the Ironjaws-- an elite group of anti-boarder and Gendarmerie, deployed on ships in war, and more importantly acting against our efforts and agents in the Commonwealth, representing the spearhead in anti-corruption efforts as well. A relatively new such organization, founded only a few decades past, they are currently under the temporary command of Lord Kyurol Vinochech, while the Prince and Lord Vanyk are...away. More importantly for the current record, their armor and armament, yes, must seem, at first glance, crude and archaic-- but it is not so.
First, the armor."
She gripped the helmet and looked into the eyes, covered by something thick and black.
"Yes, it resembles something medieval crawled out of the depths of time, and about as useful as such would be. But do not let that fool you. The eyes alone have lenses capable of three different forms of vision overlay-- biometric, thermal, and nightvision. There is also the matter of the integrated comms piece, which while not particularly special, is fairly high quality. More important than any of that is an integrated tactical suite offering up to the minute advice and scans.
Then the armor below. Look first to the arms. Integrated into both arms are tasers for nonlethal work--" there is a light crackle and spark as they activate, barely picked up by the device, "and blades, for the exact opposite." There is an unfriendly shuuunt as said blades pop out from the gauntlets, vicious sharp, worryingly long, and blindingly shiny-- certainly not by accident, well able to disorient the foe.
"Next, look to the cuirasse. It can stop most glancing blows, a disruptor pistol from short range, and provides excellent protection to the few instant stopping points the Dobetians have. More importantly, it can block the weapons the Dobiet themselves wield, something that has proven invaluable as they purge elements overly-sympathetic to us from their government, where they can. This has been under the Prince, I remind you all, leading me to once again state that we should remove him from play when we can.
Moving down we come to the legs. They, again, have proven annoyingly effective at what seems to be their real task-- help the Ironjaws overpower our agents in safety. As well, it has an inbuilt holster, utility belt, and scabbard.
All of this, to be clear, is fireproof, insulated, and shock-absorbent, along with a number of unknown capabilities for any single member-- the Ironjaws do enjoy their personalization.
Finally, the weapons. Firstly, the sword. Two Kilograms of the most advanced metal, worked in the Center Forge in Kahlama, on the largest continent. Sharpened by laser to the keenest possible edge, capable of slicing through the average stone or concrete wall.
Next, the disruptor. A small, pistol shaped weapon, its design is ergonomic, and it is surprisingly powerful, with a recoil to match."
She snapped her fingers, remembering something of no little import.
"I should note that according to my contacts, the Ironjaws have begun experimenting with Federation style phasers, after the arrival of Task Force Righteous, perhaps part of the regime's attempt to curry favor with the Federation in order to secure backing against us.
I maintain two suggestions to the ambassador and to the wider State, as the result of this and my other examinations.
Firstly, any intervention should be either so subtle and unseen that none can tell it ever happened-- or so above board and without shadow that none may question its legality and legitimacy. Any method that is both obvious and even potentially illegal or illegitimate represents a potential fuel for Rebellion and insurrection on a monstrous, wealth devouring scale-- which would make our current troubles with the Bajorans-- absolutely miserable as they are-- seem to have a sibling, just as bloodthirsty.
Secondly, the Prince must be taken out of play, at least concurrently with, if not before, any such intervention else he may well represent the nascent seed of an insurrection that would take years to put down, would tie up far too much of our efforts, and simply generally be to the good of no one.
Further, while I currently believe most of the stories of how he acquired his nom de guerre are untrue, I will continue to search for more conclusive evidence, either for or against.
This is Alvas Dras, signing off."
--
Done on my phone, so I imagine the grammar's questionable.
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Kolar
Is Not A Robot
Is there a reason this threadmark links back to a post on the second page when you hit next?
- Location
- Australia
I was thinking that if we were to run simulations of pre-warp worlds, after the simulated "die" in the simulation they could then be given an "afterlife" to then be free to live as they see fit within the Federation. I read this interesting idea about the Culture once, that they seeded around a pre-interstellar species that same species in surrounding worlds, often at higher levels of technology, in order to dispell the notion of the supremacy or specialness of their own kind so they would better assimilate into the Culture. Perhaps the AI's from those simulations (that volunteered) could be given organic bodies of the species to perform much the same purpose.
- Location
- Earth
Firstly, any simulated life accurate for usable purposes means there's no difference between real life or simulated. Because inaccurate simulations aren't that useful. So simulated life is alive.
Just because you give the simulated beings a good afterlife doesn't excuse the fact that some of them might experience horrific, suffering lives. Creating a simulation to be useful means matching reality, and reality can be pretty terrible. Essentially this is recreating sapient life to suffer. Making life to profit off the suffering of said life seems like a pretty terrible thing.
Giving them a great afterlife doesn't cancel out the bad life any simulated was put in. If I punch someone and give them lots of money, that doesn't mean the punch is erased from history and pain was never caused. They're two separate things.
Just because you give the simulated beings a good afterlife doesn't excuse the fact that some of them might experience horrific, suffering lives. Creating a simulation to be useful means matching reality, and reality can be pretty terrible. Essentially this is recreating sapient life to suffer. Making life to profit off the suffering of said life seems like a pretty terrible thing.
Giving them a great afterlife doesn't cancel out the bad life any simulated was put in. If I punch someone and give them lots of money, that doesn't mean the punch is erased from history and pain was never caused. They're two separate things.