Its too late. Its already happened and escape is no longer an option.

Could always just kill everyone. Nobody gets mindhacked if there aren't any minds left to hack.

Of course, the Singers would probably resort to cloning even if all the organics got killed off, so that's not gonna work either.

Maybe- No. Or- No.

Eh, guess we'll try the immunization path. That's got a more than 5% chance of working, I guess.
 
It was dark humor, like the quote above it.
A lot of us are tired of "kill the entire Harmony," and repeating it over and over is bad. And saying "but it was just a joke" doesn't make it better.

I think we're all adult enough to recognize that there are things it's still wrong to say, even if it's a joke or a meme or something.

Plus, they were joking about the Singers having hacked the QMs or something. You were apparently joking about in-game genocide of the Harmony population.
 
A lot of us are tired of "kill the entire Harmony," and repeating it over and over is bad. And saying "but it was just a joke" doesn't make it better.

I think we're all adult enough to recognize that there are things it's still wrong to say, even if it's a joke or a meme or something.

Plus, they were joking about the Singers having hacked the QMs or something. You were apparently joking about in-game genocide of the Harmony population.

No, it was 'kill literally everyone, so nobody can get mindhacked' thought. Akin to MCU Thanos plan. Hence it being a joke.
 
The main problem with the Singers is that the GMs did too good a job at making them such "Blatantly Irredeemably Evil Assholes™."
I don't think so. Genophage was plenty evil too and has shared none of our issue with HoH I believe.

There are four main problems with HoH. The one you wrote. That we could not really do anything substantial about them (except for Beyond, which had... problems.). A history of long frustration with them (Beyond ship sink going on and on and on, unrelenting shadiness that we could no nothing about), and a several incidents of strained trust in our GMs regarding them (Mostly Beyond and TF mechanics being adjusted such that when we were finally close to victory, it disappeared into distance, or appeared impossible. Repeatedly. Also that erased post and some SoD breaks.).

Star Trek has many evil assholes. That alone would not cause such issues.
 
I don't think so. Genophage was plenty evil too and has shared none of our issue with HoH I believe.
I think you may be missing the key difference between the Biophage and HoH; genocide was acceptable on the former but not the latter. We, as both players and Starfleet's commander, did our best to wipe out every last trace of the Biophage. The Singers meanwhile have been explicitly and repeatedly stated to not be an acceptable target for genocide.

To put it basically evil can be either redeemed, tolerated, or eliminated. This can be see in the Orions (redeemed through the removal of the Syndicate), Cardassians (conflict spluttered out to an uneasy peace), and Biophage (killed to the hopefully last) respectively.

The problem is that the Singers don't readily appear to fall into any of the categories. They have been firmly established as irredeemable through their actions. They cannot be tolerated as they are regularly trying (and succeeding) to undermine the Federation. They cannot be eliminated as they qualify as people in a way the Biophage can be argued to not.

Odds are we'll end up curbing the Singers in some way to allows them to slot into the tolerable category but it's not like that will actually make anyone happy about the situation. It just means we'll have yet another horrible evil empire on our border. Yet another example of ignoring the suffering of billions because it's politically convenient.
 
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How many more times are we going to beat this dead Space Horse with another dead Space Horse?
Many times. Odds are this will continue to come and up again and again at fairly regular intervals until the Harmony situation is finally solved at which point it will occasionally still come up now and then as people whine about the resolution but far less frequently then it currently does. Eventually it will probably be overshadowed by the quest's next major controversy.

Just think of "Harmony Complaints" as the latest example of Lets Commit Warcrimes Unleash the Biophage.
 
People actually stopped doing that. But I guess a little restraint is too much to ask for, apparently.
For people working on the assumption, somewhat supported by QM statements, that the Singers cannot be persuaded to stop mind-controlling people...

Killing all the Singers probably doesn't feel like a warcrime of the same order as, say, killing every Cardassian or every Klingon.

Firstly, because we can imagine the Cardassians or Klingons being persuaded or coerced to accept regime change. If the Klingons did something utterly appalling and insane such that we felt that we had to step in, as opposed to just the crime of "being a military dictatorship," we could imagine that defeating the Klingon government could make the appalling, insane things stop. Likewise the Cardassians.

But can we achieve this result with the Singers? At the moment a lot of people don't have much hope for that, since they've been explicitly declared and demonstrated to not view normal sapients as people. It's like, a chimpanzee can kill an individual human, and a group of chimpanzees who acted in a coordinated manner could probably kill quite a number of humans who threatened their habitat. But ultimately the chimpanzees would never be able to have peace with humans, until humans recognized them as beings with whom negotiation is possible, and to whom moral obligations can be owed.

...

Part of the reason that "just kill all members of this group" is so firmly appalling is that we can reasonably tell ourselves that there's a more civilized way to do things. With a group of normal biologicals, there is. You can, in the end, take away their weapons and force them to stop doing anything particularly obnoxious, make it clear they'll be punished for recidivism, then leave them alone. And the crime stops.

Can we take away the Singers' weapons? Can we deny them the capacity to mind-control other sapients, make it clear to them that the consequence of doing so is very dire, and leave them alone to a fate of not mind controlling people any more? We don't know. We've been given reason to think that the answer is "no," but the alternative of simply tolerating the continued existence of the Singers as they are now- as puppet-masters of a vast empire- does not seem acceptable.

What do you do with an deeply inimical and atrocity-committing supervillain who won't stop? Either you find a way to take away his powers, you imprison him beyond his capacity to escape, you kill him, or you let him keep escaping and committing atrocities of his own?

What do you do with an entire subculture of such supervillains, who have succeeded in establishing their domination over a small collection of now-enslaved species, and who are planning to gradually take over the galaxy?

...

Well, our choices for possible 'endgames' are:

1) Let them conquer the galaxy. Obviously not acceptable.
2) Contain their conquests but make no effort to roll back their enslavement of others. Technically acceptable but deeply unsatisfactory, and presents a massive ongoing threat against which only constant vigilance can protect us.
3) Take away their powers. Very difficult if not impossible without conquering the Harmony, which would involve killing not only Singers but many many ordinary sapient slaves of the Singers.
4) Imprison them beyond their capacity to escape. See previous.
5) Kill them. Probably also see previous.

The options people are comfortable with accepting are (3), (4), and (5), because the Singers are so much more insidious a threat than, say, the Cardassians. With Cardassians, we can accept (2) on some level.

But we've been given no reason to think that we have any "humane" way to achieve (3) or (4). And once you're already talking about mass-casualty wars or disasters to eliminate the Singer threat. And if we start talking about mass-casualty wars... well, the Singers would likely throw millions of their slaves into someone's guns in an attempt to retain control. After that has happened, do the Singers themselves really have that strong a claim on life?
 
I also think that part of the problem with the Singers is that here is disagreement on what the Singers are thanks to their transhuman nature. I personally don't consider the Singers to be some new species because they uploaded their minds because they are similar enough to the non-uploaded members of their species that I believe that the upload hasn't changes them enough to count as distinct species. Because I view the Singers as a political leadership and I don't consider the act of killing them to be genocide. I place the act of killing the Singers in the place that I put killing the Federation Council, the Romulan Senate and the Klingon High Council or to use real life examples, the British Parliament or the US Congress. I don't consider killing any of those to be genocide because they are just a bunch of political leadership picked from the populace of their nations.

So I completely agree that specifically targeting a species to wipe them out would be genocide, a war crime and evil, I just don't think that applies to the Singers because I don't consider them to be a separate species despite their uploaded nature and abilities, they act like Horizonians, Moy, Lintrid and the other species that happened to be seriously messed up in the head.

The end result is that we got a disconnect within the playerbase due to differing views on the transhuman nature of the Singers. We all (or at least I hope we do) agree that genocide and other warcrimes are horrible, evil and should never be done, but we disagree on the nature of the Singers are which leads to us disagreeing on what actions constitute war crimes when done to them. I feel that it is going to be important to address things as it just makes any debate on the Singers descend into a heated mess. This is because we got one side that considers the Singers to be a separate species and specifically targeting them counts as genocide while the other considers them to just be a group of political leadership and therefore specifically target them isn't genocide.

So because of the above, we got one side of the debate thinking that the other side is advocating for genocide and then denying or justifying it when called out on it while the second side thinks that the first side is grossly exaggerating the situation and falsely accusing them of advocating for war crimes. This leads to heated tensions as one side of the debate thinks that the opposition is a bunch of genocide advocates while the other side feels that they are being falsely accused of wanting genocide when they are not.

I personally feel that it is important to address this as the player base collectively agrees that genocide and war crimes are wrong, evil and should never be done, but we disagree on the nature of the Singers and as a result, what actions constitute war crime against them. As far as I know, there has been no official QM stance on whether or not the Singers count as a new separate species after being uploaded so I feel that we ought to get there before having further debate on how to deal with the Singers.
 
So I completely agree that specifically targeting a species to wipe them out would be genocide, a war crime and evil, I just don't think that applies to the Singers because I don't consider them to be a separate species despite their uploaded nature and abilities, they act like Horizonians, Moy, Lintrid and the other species that happened to be seriously messed up in the head.
I think the problem here is that your definition of genocide is too small. You can certainly argue whether or not the Singers are a new species but genocide applies to more then that. Here is the definition of genocide as per Article 2 of the United Nations' Convention on Genocide:
Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

  • (a) Killing members of the group;
  • (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  • (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  • (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  • (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
It would be pretty hard to argue that the Singers aren't a separate ethnic group compared to regular Horizonites. They have a clearly distinct culture, view themselves as separate, have a shared origin (the girl's school), their own history, ect.
 
..................

What bugs me the most about all this, is that it only takes a single off-hand mention of the topic for everyone to repeat the same arguments all over again. No one needs the situation explained or examined yet again, but so many people seem to feel the need to repeat the entire song-and-dance with only a tiny prompting by just one person. It this is a topic people don't want to discuss, then why is it being discussed over and over again? Can we not agree to drop the topic? (It's certainly not because anything's happened in the quest related to the HoH recently. The last Discord post is from way back in April.)
 
I think the problem here is that your definition of genocide is too small. You can certainly argue whether or not the Singers are a new species but genocide applies to more then that. Here is the definition of genocide as per Article 2 of the United Nations' Convention on Genocide:

It would be pretty hard to argue that the Singers aren't a separate ethnic group compared to regular Horizonites. They have a clearly distinct culture, view themselves as separate, have a shared origin (the girl's school), their own history, ect.

I disagree with the idea that that Singers are a separate ethnic group because they aren't born that way, they are made that way and ethnicity isn't something you just get to change, it is something you are born with. I also refuse to believe that our QMs would create a minority group that are all irredeemable evil and put them into To Boldly Go.

To me, they aren't a race or ethnicity for the above reasons, they aren't their own nationality as they consider themselves part of the Harmony and they act more like a political party than a religious group so I place them in the category of political leadership like I do with the Federation Council, the Romulan Senate and the Klingon High Council.

I also don't believe that count as a minority group because they are made up of irredeemably evil arseholes so far and that would meant that the QMs would have created an evil minority, something that would be totally out of place with the themes of both Star Trek and this quest.
 
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Honstly, I kinda think the singers are somewhat sideways to definitions like ethnic group or sup species. Their more than just an organization. But at the same time, due to pre-screening mental rewriting, and possible effects of the upload process, they are far more homogeneous than it would be possible for other types of groups to be when it comes to being on board with doing horrific things. Modern-day does not really have a term for it since its a new situation.

But I kinda feel if you look at the reasons genocide is horrible, a lot of them don't apply. There are no innocent singers, there are no singer non-combatants* and there are no singers who are not in some way, culpable of the horror that they do. So either they do round up to an ethnic group, and we are now looking at one of those evil sci-fi races where genocide is justified, or they round down to being just an organization and it's like dealing with the SS.

*there are ones that don't fight, but they fall under the category of vital enemy infrastructure. the way shipyards and such are valid military targets.
 
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I mean. Aside from fiddling with the implants, there's also that maybe totally legit Singer retirement home.
 
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