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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
And what shall be the verdict for Kemli Imrakson?

(Putting the link to the post here.)
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oh shit I missed that, sorry.

EDIT: Semi Canon, I don't doubt troll gut bombs would exist given how radical Kraka Drakk can get, I just imagine it'd take longer to happen. I'll start a counter for it and if Kemli cracks it I'll change it to canon. But otherwise the Character fits, I'll add him to the pool. (do you mind telling me if he's a ranger or engineer, Im not too sure.)
 
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soulcake said:
oh shit I missed that, sorry.

EDIT: Semi Canon, I don't doubt troll gut bombs would exist given how radical Kraka Drakk can get, I just imagine it'd take longer to happen. I'll start a counter for it and if Kemli cracks it I'll change it to canon. But otherwise the Character fits, I'll add him to the pool. (do you mind telling me if he's a ranger or engineer, Im not too sure.)
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He's a Ranger, but he has experience working with skins and hides from being raised in a craft-clan with ties to the Leatherworker's Guild.
 
I just read about the harshest nicest taskmaster in the hold, and now this gem of a griffon, just need on crazy beardling or youngling to ask for a ride.
 
I think I just had a brainwave. So earlier I was checking the info tabs for updates and saw that we were missing a unit of Elder Magmawyrm Blood and a Bar of Adamant. The Adamant stock was at 15 where as before it was 14 indicating that we had gained 2 and then used 1 for the hammer. But then shortly after that Soulcake went back and changed the Adamant count to 14 but left the Wyrm Blood at 1.
UlseDovThur said:
Looks like Things of Note updated. We're missing an Adamant and a unit of Elder Magma Wyrm Blood so the Reagents for the Hammer have been taken out but I didn't notice any other reagent missing any of its stock. Either the Runes of Smednir and Thungni didn't get anything extra or their reagents were taken from one of the ones we have x infinity of.

Edit: We were missing an Adamant. Should be at 15. Soul just went back and put it back to 14 though without also reverting the other reagents.
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But now I think the second Adamant we were supposed to get was actually used, specifically as a reagent for the Rune of Thungni. Gromril is undoubtably the material that takes to Runes more than any other. We got Adamant by following a research line called "Rune Metal". If ever there was a reagent that would fit the Rune of Thungni, The Ancestor God of Runes, Runes which, by their nature, bring Order to Chaos, it's Adamant. The metal which is strongly linked to the Concept of Order. I will also note that Adamant is, in fact, listed as a Reagent, not a Structural Material.
 
UlseDovThur said:
But now I think the second Adamant we were supposed to get was actually used, specifically as a reagent for the Rune of Thungni. Gromril is undoubtably the material that takes to Runes more than any other. We got Adamant by following a research line called "Rune Metal". If ever there was a reagent that would fit the Rune of Thungni, The Ancestor God of Runes, Runes which, by their nature, bring Order to Chaos, it's Adamant. The metal which is strongly linked to the Concept of Order. I will also note that Adamant is, in fact, listed as a Reagent, not a Structural Material.
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Oh that's real interesting, especially if true. I wonder what effect that'll have.
 
Thebigpieman said:
Oh that's real interesting, especially if true. I wonder what effect that'll have.
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My bet/hope is that we get some MR!Thungni progress out of this. Assuming we DID feed it to Thungni and not, oh, Smednir, the Hyper Metal Smithing Ancestor. Or we broke it in half and did both. ...Which admittedly is questionable just for breaking Adamant in half but still. Gonna be a GOOD T4. Very, very good.
 
I've remembered something! On Turn 4 Results: we finished the first part of the Rune Metal chain and this was mentioned;
"Hundreds of runes are gone over with your new insight in mind; looking, searching for the barest discrepancy. Each rune that uses Gromril in its construction reveals a faint but noticeable pattern.

Ordering, conciseness, stability.

It becomes even more apparent when looking at permutations of existing runes that use Gromril when the original did not. The Rune of Burning, derived from the Rune of Fire, used flakes of Gromril. The startling difference that allowed it to set its ammunition ablaze after it had been launched from its, primarily wooden, firing mechanism.

But the strongest point of evidence in your favour was going over the Rune of Daemon Slaying. Its creation required drops of molten Gromril be poured into the grooves, and theories abound about how this rune so easily damaged daemonkind. Something in the Rune proved anathema to the daemon's essence making them easier to banish back into the Realms of Chaos, or so it was claimed.

Maybe this was why? Gromril's inherent order forcing the chaos that was a daemon out of the natural world?
It appears that Adamant would make a fantastic Reagent for the Rune of Daemon Slaying as it is Gromril that has purified so that it's nature of Order is untainted and brought to the fore.
 
UlseDovThur said:
I've remembered something! On Turn 4 Results: we finished the first part of the Rune Metal chain and this was mentioned;
"Hundreds of runes are gone over with your new insight in mind; looking, searching for the barest discrepancy. Each rune that uses Gromril in its construction reveals a faint but noticeable pattern.

Ordering, conciseness, stability.

It becomes even more apparent when looking at permutations of existing runes that use Gromril when the original did not. The Rune of Burning, derived from the Rune of Fire, used flakes of Gromril. The startling difference that allowed it to set its ammunition ablaze after it had been launched from its, primarily wooden, firing mechanism.

But the strongest point of evidence in your favour was going over the Rune of Daemon Slaying. Its creation required drops of molten Gromril be poured into the grooves, and theories abound about how this rune so easily damaged daemonkind. Something in the Rune proved anathema to the daemon's essence making them easier to banish back into the Realms of Chaos, or so it was claimed.

Maybe this was why? Gromril's inherent order forcing the chaos that was a daemon out of the natural world?
It appears that Adamant would make a fantastic Reagent for the Rune of Daemon Slaying as it is Gromril that has purified so that it's nature of Order is untainted and brought to the fore.
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That is a great way to get better mileage out of high tier metals, especially for projects with a significant structural material cost.

We might not be able to afford adamant armor for most purposes, but if we can give a decent number of runes a nitro boost per bar then we could get something above what we can usually manage at that scale.
 
BronzeTongue said:
That is a great way to get better mileage out of high tier metals, especially for projects with a significant structural material cost.

We might not be able to afford adamant armor for most purposes, but if we can give a decent number of runes a nitro boost per bar then we could get something above what we can usually manage at that scale.
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I think it would still cost a full bar. I don't think Soulcake would want to bother tracking fractions of Bars. But my mind was more turned toward an Anti Daemon weapon.

I was thinking an Adamant Sword with MPurification, Daemon Slaying(Adamant), and Grimnir. If ever there was a weapon that we could make that could cause a Daemon to die a True Death it would be this I think.
 
UlseDovThur said:
I think it would still cost a full bar. I don't think Soulcake would want to bother tracking fractions of Bars. But my mind was more turned toward an Anti Daemon weapon.

I was thinking an Adamant Sword with MPurification, Daemon Slaying(Adamant), and Grimnir. If ever there was a weapon that we could make that could cause a Daemon to die a True Death it would be this I think.
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I still think the assumption that purification as a rune is going to just work as a weapon is a bad one. We have two data points for this, and in both cases it made the target into a more fundamental stare of what it already was. In one of those it is verifiable that the taint was warp stuff, but in the other it st the very least selectively chose what warpy bits to take and which to leave.

The associations we have for purification haven't shown up anywhere but the name in our dataset so far. You could easily describe its effect as a crucible that refines things to a "purer" state and still fit the data, or a number of other similar things.

We know that runes have a portfolio they can vary within, but that otherwise they can't leave it. If the portfolio here is purification in the sense of assuming an idealized form then stabbing a daemon with it would just make them some sort of prototype of a daemon or something.

It might not be the case, but the thread as a whole seems oddly accepting of the idea of assuming a new rune will conform to the ideas associated with purity despite it having never demonstrated that sort of ability. At best it has tangential connection in that we know it can push on warpy stuff.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I still think the assumption that purification as a rune is going to just work as a weapon is a bad one. We have two data points for this, and in both cases it made the target into a more fundamental stare of what it already was. In one of those it is verifiable that the taint was warp stuff, but in the other it st the very least selectively chose what warpy bits to take and which to leave.

The associations we have for purification haven't shown up anywhere but the name in our dataset so far. You could easily describe its effect as a crucible that refines things to a "purer" state and still fit the data, or a number of other similar things.

We know that runes have a portfolio they can vary within, but that otherwise they can't leave it. If the portfolio here is purification in the sense of assuming an idealized form then stabbing a daemon with it would just make them some sort of prototype of a daemon or something.

It might not be the case, but the thread as a whole seems oddly accepting of the idea of assuming a new rune will conform to the ideas associated with purity despite it having never demonstrated that sort of ability. At best it has tangential connection in that we know it can push on warpy stuff.
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The purer prototype form of a daemon is raw warp stuff that is unshaped.

That is basically as close as we can usually get to death for Daemons, plus I think it'd be suitable as a weapon rune due to the immense energy and heat it channels.
 
Honestly?

After the Dragon Blood nonsense, I'm firmly on the "Figure out what MR Purification DO before planning about it" train. It threw enough theories out I just... don't know what to do with it until then.

And I am very much a fan of doing an Understanding on it so we can probably indirectly progress Rune Metal too, given... what it is.
 
BungieONI said:
The purer prototype form of a daemon is raw warp stuff that is unshaped.

That is basically as close as we can usually get to death for Daemons, plus I think it'd be suitable as a weapon rune due to the immense energy and heat it channels.
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I don't think we have anywhere near the information to actually determine that. For one thing, if that's how it worked, then why did the dragon blood come out as something that was still fundamentally dragon blood instead of a loose soup of magically aligned goo? The rune clearly picked a definition of what dragon blood was and what constituted pure for it, then transformed it without destroying the sample.

We don't know what the selection criteria are, or if it has some special rules about how it effects living material, or any number of other considerations.

The fundamental process and theme of a rune are what defines how it works, and we don't really know them for this one. We're filling in the blanks with generic fantasy lore based on a one word description, but that has no reason to lead anywhere useful.

Treating supposition as fact is a bad idea; especially when the assumption in question is that a number of critical things will end up having the most convenient possible properties they could possess.
 
BronzeTongue said:
I don't think we have anywhere near the information to actually determine that. For one thing, if that's how it worked, then why did the dragon blood come out as something that was still fundamentally dragon blood instead of a loose soup of magically aligned goo? The rune clearly picked a definition of what dragon blood was and what constituted pure for it, then transformed it without destroying the sample.
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Because that's what the purer form of demons is by canon definition?

The reason it seems to have made infinitely variable dragon blood is the same reason it made Adamant from Gromril. Pushing a thing to its ideal state through some selection criteria we don't know for the Dragonblood. We don't precisely know the criteria for Gromril, but we know what it did, as it pushed the remnants of Warp taint out of the Pure Gromril and made it metaphysically pure as well as physically pure.

We know that it pushes for ideal states, and we know its inimical to the touch of the warp and causes a lot of heat as a byproduct. The last two are bad for demons, so I'm going to presume its bad for demons until proven otherwise.
 
ArchAIngel said:
Honestly?

After the Dragon Blood nonsense, I'm firmly on the "Figure out what MR Purification DO before planning about it" train. It threw enough theories out I just... don't know what to do with it until then.

And I am very much a fan of doing an Understanding on it so we can probably indirectly progress Rune Metal too, given... what it is.
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I'm fairly sure that the Master Rune of Purification is a Master Rune of Spelleating that's been inverted, shunting magic away from it rather than drawing it in.

We know it's a Rune of Spelleating derivative and I remember that when try to develop the Rune snorri at first was trying to draw the corruption out of the Gromril but as he was going through his various reagents he came across some Obsidian and reflected on its inherent nature of being totally magically inert. This gave him the idea to push the corruption out rather than pull it out which he then used to make a prototype Smelter that, while it blew up, produced our first Bar of Adamant.
 
BungieONI said:
Because that's what the purer form of demons is by canon definition?

The reason it seems to have made infinitely variable dragon blood is the same reason it made Adamant from Gromril. Pushing a thing to its ideal state through some selection criteria we don't know for the Dragonblood. We don't precisely know the criteria for Gromril, but we know what it did, as it pushed the remnants of Warp taint out of the Pure Gromril and made it metaphysically pure as well as physically pure.

We know that it pushes for ideal states, and we know its inimical to the touch of the warp and causes a lot of heat as a byproduct. The last two are bad for demons, so I'm going to presume its bad for demons until proven otherwise.
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My point is that the dragon blood clearly demonstrated that it has some more complex selection criteria for what it considers a valid target and how it will effect them.

Daemons are made from warp energy, but that doesn't mean the rune will define their purest state as being broken down into their constituent parts. When it refined dragons blood it refined it into better dragons blood, it didn't scrub it down to a protein slurry.

How do we know it won't latch onto the idea of a daemon the way it did for the blood, and just make the fundamental substance "purer" for the next time it forms?

On that other point, we know that it makes a lot of heat for the two things we tried it on, and that it pushes away warpy stuff for one of them. We don't know what it did to the dragon's blood, and we have no indication that it's any more inherently inimical than any other rune. We have two data points, which is just enough to say with some confidence that it probably exists.

Not knowing the mechanism or basic I/O definition means that every assumption we're making is a blind guess.
 
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