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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Why the question mark? It sounds like we're working backwards to jusitfy the combo again.
And if we're discussing killing the metaphysical, why fire? Pretty sure thats what my alternate Valaya combo was for.

Because fire is associated with purity and metaphysical cleansing, as well as physical.

Gazul is pretty clearly the seeker after corruption amongst the Ancestor Gods. Grimnir doesn't purify, he slays. Gazul purifies. Look at what Purification does, it removes impurities from something, leaving the something behind, transformed. Grimnir goes out and destroys things. They're very different conceptually.

This isn't about killing the metaphysical, it's about purifying it.

Something like Master Rune of Purification + Rune of Gazul + Rune of Spelleating could work well here, with Gazul breaking down the daemonic 'essence', Purification, well, purifying it, and then Spelleating consuming it. I could see Stone substituting for Spelleating, 'grounding' the daemons' energy, preventing it from returning to the Aethyr. I could see it as a set with our armour, with our hammer drawing energy from the depths of the earth and an axe or sword returning energy to it.
 
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Because fire is associated with purity and metaphysical cleansing, as well as physical.
Just a casual reminder
A. As a derivative of Khazalid, Runes don't like abstracts.
There are far less abstract ways of discussion destroying metaphysical things.
We're like three degrees of separation from the actual effect: Fire -> Fire is cleansing -> Fire cleanses magic???

The thing is, we have better runes for that.
If we want an effect that breaks magic: that is what Spellbreaking exists for.
If we want an effect that repurposes their magic to our own effect: that is what Spelleating exists for.
 
[Semi Canon]: Field Testing, Kemli Imrakson [Ranger] Added to Character Recruitment Pool [RECRUITED]
So, here's my submission for a possible retainer for Snorri. The core concept is a Ranger, who was originally from a clan associated with the Leatherworker's Guild, but found his talents better suited elsewhere. Thus, I present...

Field Testing
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The Gors had formed a crude ring of muscle and fur, locking the two specimens of their tribe with the largest horns into their midst. There they hacked, snarled, punched, bit and brayed at each other. Snow was kicked up, crude weapons resounded with ugly smacks as they clashed time and again, echoing into the surroundings every time one of them struck the other's flesh. To stray too close to the encircling crowd would mean being torn to shreds for cowardice.

Both were fearsome creatures, towering over the rest by at least a head, with the brays barely reaching up to their waists. Each one had arms wider around than the trunk of a decade-old tree. Their horns an amalgamation of multiple shapes, in one the antlers of an elk that at their base curled forward like those of a ram, in the other a more typical arrangement of ones that swept upward into acute points, likely enhanced by sharpening with a stone knife judging by the unevenness of the points. The true outlier lay in a nearly identical second pair, sprouting from the Gor's cranium in parallel with the first set.

As the fight carried on, the rest of the tribe drew closer and closer, whether drawn in by the scent of spilled blood or a taught tradition to intensify the struggle between challengers might be pondered by someone with the spare time and inclination to. Then, a breakthrough occurred in the fight. The four-horned beast landed a savage punch to the antlered one's throat, bringing it to its knees as it gasped for air. A third eye previously held closed on the Gor's forehead had flown open from the pain. A crude axe was raised aloft, ready to finish off this rival.

The axe descended, and the antlered one cemented its victory. Pressing its weight back onto one cloven hoof, it bounded upwards, impaling the four-horns' throat with a sharpened antler, drawing a flint 'knife' as the axe fell to the ground from limp fingers. After a few moments of dying bleating, the antlered one had finished carving out its rival's heart. Standing back up, tearing four-horns' head from its shoulders, it raised the yet beating heart and opened its maw, ready to feel the taste of blood not its own.

For a half-second, Kemli Imrakson pondered if it had time to feel disappointment at the taste before it started screaming in pain from the sack full of Troll vomit he had flung into its open mouth. In the next, he was already flinging another, this one more thin-skinned at the canopy above the crowd while they were still staring at their new chieftain writhing on the ground. One toss of a sling later, and they were joining in, save for two brays which had been standing further from the crowd, apprehensive of being torn to shreds or stepped on by 'accident'. Crossbow made short work of them.

Now that silence was fallen, it was time to get to the true extent of the work; noting down the results.

A set of especially long tongs plucked out the torn out sacks from the midst of the pile of corpses, setting them down into an orderly pile before being tucked back into Kemli's pack. In their place emerged a set of gloves made of a Troll's stomach bag, much like the two sacks.

"Let's see here... Test Number ninety-eight of the Trollgut Satchel Bomb. Gauging by the lack of a corroded trail from where the bomb was launched, the seams and seals seem to hold up under the strains of being slung and the subsequent flight. As I had anticipated, moving onto a different stitch pattern from model sixty-five to sixty-six has improved the consistency of the ruptures on impact. The level of lethality has remained much the same across the prototypes, though the speed at which it kills leaves a great deal to be desired. Still, this newest round of testing has proven quite successful."

The remains of the two sacks went into a pouch on Kemli's belt, also made from a Troll's stomach. It wouldn't do for any residue of the contents to damage his regular pack. "Now then. Time to finish up here."

It was the work of a few moments to remove the quarrels from the bodies of the two brays. It took rather longer to conceal the wounds by smashing a sizable stone onto them.

Finally, Kemli stood before the tribe's bonfire, grasping their banner, made from rawhide and scrawled on without much care, bah. At least none of the materials showed signs of being pillaged. He tossed it into the flames without ceremony or preamble. Time was running short.

The Rangers of Kraka Drakk ventured far and wide in their efforts to deal with threats to Dawi before there would be a need to send out a Throng. Yet, such could still be found further afield than even they would regularly patrol, so a more efficient approach was called for. The beasts were known to prize the banners of their individual tribes greatly, enough so that the theft of such could drive them to each other throats. Well, more so than usual, that is. By all the signs he had left here, any who were called by the screams would find a slaughter that looked to have been done by trolls, whom he knew from his notes on this region had sizable numbers present.

There wasn't much that could bring tribes of Gors together. Nothing short of Dumi did it so well as an outside attack. His work here meant it was likely the two foes would turn to fighting each other for at least a month or two, depending on the conflict's intensity.

Kemli Imrakson vanished among the trees, leaving only the wind and the crackle of fire to break up the newly found silence in the clearing.
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AN: Hope you enjoyed this, feedback is welcome.
 
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Just a casual reminder

There are far less abstract ways of discussion destroying metaphysical things.
We're like three degrees of separation from the actual effect: Fire -> Fire is cleansing -> Fire cleanses magic???

The thing is, we have better runes for that.
If we want an effect that breaks magic: that is what Spellbreaking exists for.
If we want an effect that repurposes their magic to our own effect: that is what Spelleating exists for.

Fire purifying things isn't abstract, it's a physical property of fire. It sterilises things.

As for the rest of the discussion, note this:

"Aye, you. Vengeance has been sated, their Lord Dead and their Dark Patron sundered, but I am not fool enough to believe they will not carry on. If not out of belief, then simply because of spite. Circumstances beyond even my control have forced my hand, you must pick up where I have left off. Lead the Keepers, bring the Followers low and safeguard the souls of our people here. You will be fine, I've done the brunt of the work already," Gazul says with a hint of humour before spitting onto the coal-black stones.

Gazul appears to have permanently harmed, sundered, a (minor) chaos god. That's a more direct example of applicability to daemon slaying than anything we know Valaya has done. TO me, an obvious combination for a daemon slaying weapon would be Master Rune of Purification, Rune of Gazul, and the Rune of Daemon Slaying, although that doesn't have the link to be a set item, that grounding the energy in stone would have.
 
Fire purifying things isn't abstract, it's a physical property of fire. It sterilises things.

As for the rest of the discussion, note this:


Gazul appears to have permanently harmed, sundered, a (minor) chaos god. That's a more direct example of applicability to daemon slaying than anything we know Valaya has done. TO me, an obvious combination for a daemon slaying weapon would be Master Rune of Purification, Rune of Gazul, and the Rune of Daemon Slaying, although that doesn't have the link to be a set item, that grounding the energy in stone would have.
Now I am confused why you thought fire would ground energy in stone. However since you seem to acknowledge that we have better choices than fire I'm going to ignore that since its not really a valuable way forwards. Daemon slaying is probably a better choice than spellbreaking/eating so fine.

And since we're talking about doing actual harm to the chaos gods then we're back to Grimnir being the better choice.
And of course the very unclear explanation. Are Ancestor Runes genuine representations of the ancestors or are they Runes that existed before hand and the Ancestors found and named them for their effects being close to how they considered themselves. I'm curious if you think a Rune of Gazul would have changed properties after the Hashut thing.
 
So, Valaya is more anti daemon I think

Daemons are pretty much pure magic and Valaya acts as the main protector of the Dwarves from magical threats.
Valaya in my mind is more defensive - focused on the protection of Dwarves ("...blows faltering as their very essence is assaulted. ") from Daemons/magical threats.
Gazul may be more focused on offense.
Anyway, our understanding of MPurification is partial, until we research it there is little point trying to build a Combo with it.
 
A thought on ingredients. Compared to the canon Golden Age, the dwarves should be much better off for them, as they also have access to the ingredients from Norsca, the Great Skull Land, and the Mountains of Mourne.

Kraka Drakk should be pretty close to the centre of a web of trade, as the merchants of Ulthuan will want to buy those eastern trade goods that will be passing through those northern tunnels.

Now I am confused why you thought fire would ground energy in stone. However since you seem to acknowledge that we have better choices than fire I'm going to ignore that since its not really a valuable way forwards. Daemon slaying is probably a better choice than spellbreaking/eating so fine.

And since we're talking about doing actual harm to the chaos gods then we're back to Grimnir being the better choice.
And of course the very unclear explanation. Are Ancestor Runes genuine representations of the ancestors or are they Runes that existed before hand and the Ancestors found and named them for their effects being close to how they considered themselves. I'm curious if you think a Rune of Gazul would have changed properties after the Hashut thing.

I never mentioned fire grounding energy in stone. I mentioned that as an alternative. I don't know why you're raising that as a strawman. I mentioned using the Rune of Stone to ground energy in the earth.

In terms of actual harm to a Chaos God I don't believe we have evidence that Grimnir ever touched one, whereas we have evidence Gazul did.

I think that the Ancestor Runes are special, and that they embody the capabilities of the Ancestor Gods. The capability to harm daemons reflecting Gazul's ability to harm their master may always have been latent in His Rune, but until he did so I expect it would have taken an impossibly skilled runesmith to draw out that aspect of it. Only once he'd done so could an actual runesmith work out how to do so, or be inspired to realise it was possible.
 
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As a note, what purification does is separate out things. That's linked fairly closely to sundering, purification extracts the impure, leaving behind the pure.

Another interesting thing about Gazul is that he's apparently the inventor of all the Ancestor Runes, which might explain why they work differently.

I'm also curious about any connections between the Underearth he's the god of and the depths of the earth where our armour draws power from. There may be none, but I can see some obvious connections between Gazul leading dwarven souls to the Underearth and earthing purified daemonic energy with a Purification + Gazul + Stone combo, given that they're apparently both made of the same stuff.

I wouldn't expect this to permanently kill daemons, but could see it permanently weakening them.

Considering Grimnir is in the warp right now battling Chaos Greater Daemons left and right, I think Grimnir has the potential to harm one such as Hashut.

I believe that according to legend Grimnir's not actually in the Aethyr, he's standing at the site of the broken warpgate eternally fighting the daemon hordes trying to enter the world.
The question is how minor Hashut is tbh. He is never put in the same company as the Four, but it took all of them to imprison him in the first place, which is really weird if he was that much weaker than any one of them.

It could just be that hard to imprison a god. The Chaos Gods are much stronger than the Order Gods but until the end times bullshit never managed to directly effect them.
 
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I never mentioned fire grounding energy in stone. I mentioned that as an alternative. I don't know why you're raising that as a strawman. I mentioned using the Rune of Stone to ground energy in the earth.
Wait... when was Rune of Stone ever mentioned in the MPurification combo?
As for the ancestor Rune, what? Do you mean that ever since that event we're actually working with Gazul MK.II? How did Runesmiths learn how to make this alternate combo?
 
Wait... when was Rune of Stone ever mentioned in the MPurification combo?
As for the ancestor Rune, what? Do you mean that ever since that event we're actually working with Gazul MK.II? How did Runesmiths learn how to make this alternate combo?
Here:
Something like Master Rune of Purification + Rune of Gazul + Rune of Spelleating could work well here, with Gazul breaking down the daemonic 'essence', Purification, well, purifying it, and then Spelleating consuming it. I could see Stone substituting for Spelleating, 'grounding' the daemons' energy, preventing it from returning to the Aethyr. I could see it as a set with our armour, with our hammer drawing energy from the depths of the earth and an axe or sword returning energy to it.

I then further developed the idea, most recently pointing out that Stone might reference Gazul in his role as Lord of the Underearth and transporter of dwarven souls there.
 
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Can purification even be used in this manner? Runes are very literal and specific in their effects, so the implications of purity in English may not apply. The sort of purification we see it do is in shifting things towards an idealized state. It removed warp corruption when it acted on Gromil, but the chromatic dragon blood probably didn't wave anything to do with warp influence.

Maybe the right combination of runes would make it work, but if the rune of purification is specifically about making something a more pure/fundamental variation of itself then it might be a bad weapon rune.

It depends on how much variation we can get out of it. Runes aren't restricted to one specific function, but they also can't act out of their portfolio. We should determine if the rune of purification extends to forms that can harm the target before planning weapons centered around it.
 
Here:


I then further developed the idea, most recently pointing out that Stone might reference Gazul in his role as Lord of the Underearth and transporter of dwarven souls there.
Ah okay, sorry I missed that.
Can purification even be used in this manner? Runes are very literal and specific in their effects, so the implications of purity in English may not apply. The sort of purification we see it do is in shifting things towards an idealized state. It removed warp corruption when it acted on Gromil, but the chromatic dragon blood probably didn't wave anything to do with warp influence.

Maybe the right combination of runes would make it work, but if the rune of purification is specifically about making something a more pure/fundamental variation of itself then it might be a bad weapon rune.

It depends on how much variation we can get out of it. Runes aren't restricted to one specific function, but they also can't act out of their portfolio. We should determine if the rune of purification extends to forms that can harm the target before planning weapons centered around it.
We have no idea but its an extemely interesting subject to discuss.
The best argument that this should work is that in MPurification the 'impurities' that are being removed from Gomril are tiny amounts of the winds which have gotten into the pure space rock. ( If I remember my mechanics correctly )
Since Daemons are really just congealed magic then we do have a good basis for speculation that this can work.
 
I want to get the princes' armors done when we get back, so it doesn't keep building on us. Or just on me.
I feel that we need to get to the Rune Metal main line. Going off of Adamant production we are going to get small amounts of the mat over time once we finish the research so if we want to use something better than Adamant for items we need to get to it sooner rather than later. And given the improvement from Pure Gromil to Adamant the next step up is going to be something amazing and at the very least we want it for our 2nd weapon and any other very important items we make.

Like our armor is low T5, I would not be surprised if we had used the T5 gromil in it that would have been enough to push it up to mid T5.
 
I feel that we need to get to the Rune Metal main line. Going off of Adamant production we are going to get small amounts of the mat over time once we finish the research so if we want to use something better than Adamant for items we need to get to it sooner rather than later. And given the improvement from Pure Gromil to Adamant the next step up is going to be something amazing and at the very least we want it for our 2nd weapon and any other very important items we make.

Like our armor is low T5, I would not be surprised if we had used the T5 gromil in it that would have been enough to push it up to mid T5.
Can we not leave requests/commissions sitting? The princes have been waiting long enough.

I say we use most of the actions on rune metal or Valaya's gift and then use an action to design the armor, make it the turn after, and then go all in on rune metal a and b as well as Valaya's gift.
 
I feel that we need to get to the Rune Metal main line. Going off of Adamant production we are going to get small amounts of the mat over time once we finish the research so if we want to use something better than Adamant for items we need to get to it sooner rather than later. And given the improvement from Pure Gromil to Adamant the next step up is going to be something amazing and at the very least we want it for our 2nd weapon and any other very important items we make.

Like our armor is low T5, I would not be surprised if we had used the T5 gromil in it that would have been enough to push it up to mid T5.
I think we really need to stress the range of T5s here. As a category they need to cover everything from the artifacts of Gods like Widowmaker and the Rune of Eternity to significantly lesser items like BA. This is a period where the ancestor gods are pumping stuff out so mid T5 means that we probably need to compete with that.
Honestly I think we probably ought to introduce a 'Divine' T6 that is effectively impossible to obtain as it would let us understand how things actually compare within T5. And in 3 or 4 Millennia Snorri can start considering how to reach into what is effectively the upper half of current T5
 
Can we not leave requests/commissions sitting? The princes have been waiting long enough.

I say we use most of the actions on rune metal or Valaya's gift and then use an action to design the armor, make it the turn after, and then go all in on rune metal a and b as well as Valaya's gift.
We have been doing a lot of requests and commissions. As it is by holding off on finishing the Rune Metal we are putting ourselves behind given that we need to wait for our stock of T5 gromil to build up over time once we unlock it and it should be slower than Adamant. T5 Mats are a big deal in rune work and holding off on a slow generating T5 is counter productive.
 
We have been doing a lot of requests and commissions. As it is by holding off on finishing the Rune Metal we are putting ourselves behind given that we need to wait for our stock of T5 gromil to build up over time once we unlock it and it should be slower than Adamant. T5 Mats are a big deal in rune work and holding off on a slow generating T5 is counter productive.
This is of course assuming we don't run face first into Durin Consternation. I would remind that of all of the Ancestor work we've seen, Grimnirs personal weapons included, all of their work used Adamant. We don't even know if even the Ancestors can make T5 Gromril. Grungni probably can but we've yet to see it.

And before the argument of the Ancestors not making something so beyond other dwarfs that it makes them think they can't do it themselves is brought up I would point out that The Rune of Eternity is exactly that and while Valaya wasn't that big a fan of it Grungni obviously had no issue with it.
 
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Looks like Things of Note updated. We're missing an Adamant and a unit of Elder Magma Wyrm Blood so the Reagents for the Hammer have been taken out but I didn't notice any other reagent missing any of its stock. Either the Runes of Smednir and Thungni didn't get anything extra or their reagents were taken from one of the ones we have x infinity of.

Edit: We were missing an Adamant. Should be at 15. Soul just went back and put it back to 14 though without also reverting the other reagents.
 
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