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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Or we could do another Theme-based request instead of trying to come up with the runes ourselves...
Good point! We had a lot of discussion about "Some kind of crafting hammer?" and various Rune ideas thrown around, a lot of stuff about MConduction and thoughts on Smednir, but didn't settle on anything concrete and so went for describing the idea/theme instead and that worked out wonderfully. Wound up with an MConduction and Smednir Rune involved anyway.

So, describing a close enough theme to what you want, and it's possible, probable, or likely, that you'd get Runes of Grungni and/or Valaya in there anyway.
 
Heh, yeah, I went into that sentence going "Heh, he's rig--wait a minute..." brain slowly ticks like a clock and goes ting "... Wasn't there something about Oath and Stones?" "Yes, yes there was. Heh, imagine that." Today I Remembered rather than Learned, but same sort of feeling, yes.

Well... Gazul could be about the protection of souls, or about killing undead, so... Huh. So... Something that goes very strongly on the soul theme? The Soul of the Earth. MValaya, Gazul, and... some third Rune. Perhaps just Stone. Or perhaps Flame. MValaya, Gazul, Stone/Flame.

Gazul + Stone + Flame or Valaya + Stone + Flame sound like interesting combos too. But, yeah, Gazul's rune is just too mysterious and uncertain. What to use it for, how to use it...

Or maybe Gazul's rune could be on a personal item instead. Like a talisman. But then, what would said talisman be doing? What would it be for? I mean, narratively it's actually clear and appropriate; it's the idea of having a personal keepsake and reminder of the lost and of the rest you will eventually have. Of all the things that you fight for and that rest which will come at the end once it is all over and you rejoin your ancestors and loved ones. (When I started writing this paragraph, I hadn't thought about a personal memento that reminded Snorri of his wife and/or parents, but...) Gazul and Valaya might be appropriate there.

You know, I have to admit that as each minute goes by since I posted that write-up, Valaya feels more and more like the wrong choice. It feels like the safe choice - like going for when I was thinking about going for Stalwart over Stone for Barak Azamar.

Alright, let me run with this a bit. Assume thematic appropriateness pays off, how does it manifest.

Well, Grungni's runes are primarily about redirection in combos. Not just of projectiles - whenever we use it in a combo, it redirects something to something.

Gazul's rune has three 'domains' that we know of. Souls, Violent death (Slaying/Grudge runes) and, for some reason, ranger-y stuff.

Stone...well, the thematics there are kind of obvious.

Souls can definitely play into the Conduit of the Earth theme, that's a lot of the reason Gazul is an attractive rune to me in the first place. In terms of practical effects though, maybe we can bring the death aspect in? Ranger-y deception seems antithetical to stone.

So Redirection + Death + Stone...I get the image of a boulder in the middle of a rushing current, unmoved as the water smashes onto and over it without effect. Maybe some sort of probability manipulation effect, allowing the dwarves in its range to cheat death if the margin is close enough?

There's no guarantee, but the more I think about it the more I want to try.

Also:

Or we could do another Theme-based request instead of trying to come up with the runes ourselves...



:p
 
Should we specify that we wear our armour while making our hammer?

[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer and Retinue Aid

[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer and Retinue Recruitment
 
We asked that last page, soulcake made funny noises.

I see that. The non-commital answer suggests to me that we need to decide whether we think it's a good idea or not.

There may be some problem with doing so, or conversely, it may alter the end product in some way we may not want.

For example, I could potentially see it meaning the hammer is strengthened further while we wear the armour, at the price of being weakened greatly when we don't. Or potentially being unusable when we don't, if it, say, gets incredibly hot when used.
 
I'll edit it in then and ask @buli-buli and @Captainwolf to do the same if they like. For reference what I did.

[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer and Retinue Aid
-[X] [Simple] A Company Equipped: [Cost: 4 actions] Productivity Like no Other will proc. Gain retinue equipped to the highest practical standard, all future members will receive the same upon recruitment. As your recruits are all Dwarfs well into their third century of life they do not lack for equipment. With the Gromril Mine and the abundance of Runesmiths they are arguably better equipped than the average longbeard their age, but you can do better. As their patron, you have a responsibility to see them armed to the best that you can feasibly manage. A paltry cost considering these dwarfs have sworn themselves utterly to you by your own reckoning. Of course, as with most things, there was the element of prestige involved as well. As the armour and gear a patron could equip their retainers with was a reflection of their status as well as, more importantly to you, a means of keeping them alive. And with you being a Runelord, the oldest Runelord in the Far North even, that bar is set very high indeed, both by yourself and outsiders. 2 Apprentice Actions.
--[X] Optional Write in: Adding Hearthstones to their equipment, such as gloves so that they touch the injured with warm hands or other suitably thematic items.
-[X] [Difficult] Write in, Zharrgral Pt. 2: [Cost: 1 action]. Productivity Like No Other will proc. Apply optional structural materials here. The plan in your mind burns to be made. A hammer to sunder foes and craft wonders. Its head Adamant and blazing with runes, and its haft good Silver Wutroth reinforced with Adamant rings studded with sapphires and wrapped in Elder Shardwyrm hide for grip. 4 Actions. Wear Barak Azamar while forging it.
--[X] Theme: Combo, Makerstrike: [Master Rune of Conduction (Elder Magma Dragon's Blood), Rune of Smednir (any suitable upgrade materials), Rune of Thungni (any suitable upgrade materials)]
-[X] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk. 1 Retainer Action.
-[X] ORDER: T3 Pegasus Heart
--[X] Kingly Expedite: 15 Favor.
-[X] Princely Hunting: [Cost: 10 Favour from Prince Gloin] Prince Gloin will go out and slay "A beast that is physically mighty like a mammoth or Stonetusk but more so". Gain mats. It would be ridiculous for you to ask your King to go gallivanting around the North to find something for you to make a Rune out of, but a Prince or Princess? Well, that's just you helping them build their legend through the slaying of monsters and aiding their elders. The rarer the monster the greater the reward, but it may take longer to find. Monsters slain by Gloin provide more material by virtue of being the entire beast rather than just ordering a singular organ.

[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer and Retinue Recruitment
-[X] [Simple] A Company Equipped: [Cost: 4 actions] Productivity Like no Other will proc. Gain retinue equipped to the highest practical standard, all future members will receive the same upon recruitment. As your recruits are all Dwarfs well into their third century of life they do not lack for equipment. With the Gromril Mine and the abundance of Runesmiths they are arguably better equipped than the average longbeard their age, but you can do better. As their patron, you have a responsibility to see them armed to the best that you can feasibly manage. A paltry cost considering these dwarfs have sworn themselves utterly to you by your own reckoning. Of course, as with most things, there was the element of prestige involved as well. As the armour and gear a patron could equip their retainers with was a reflection of their status as well as, more importantly to you, a means of keeping them alive. And with you being a Runelord, the oldest Runelord in the Far North even, that bar is set very high indeed, both by yourself and outsiders. 2 Apprentice Actions.
--[X] Optional Write in: Adding Hearthstones to their equipment, such as gloves so that they touch the injured with warm hands or other suitably thematic items.
-[X] [Difficult] Write in, Zharrgral Pt. 2: [Cost: 1 action]. Productivity Like No Other will proc. Apply optional structural materials here. The plan in your mind burns to be made. A hammer to sunder foes and craft wonders. Its head Adamant and blazing with runes, and its haft good Silver Wutroth reinforced with Adamant rings studded with sapphires and wrapped in Elder Shardwyrm hide for grip. 4 Actions. Wear Barak Azamar while forging it.
--[X] Theme: Combo, Makerstrike: [Master Rune of Conduction (Elder Magma Dragon's Blood), Rune of Smednir (any suitable upgrade materials), Rune of Thungni (any suitable upgrade materials)]
-[X] Recruitment Drive: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain 1d5 +5 bonus dice per action to Recruitment Dice (1d10 +5). You have retainers, dwarfs who understand what it takes to become part of your Hearthguard, send them out to see if they can lend their expertise more and skill to improve the growth of your retinue. 1 Retainer Action.
-[X] ORDER: T3 Pegasus Heart
--[X] Kingly Expedite: 15 Favor.
-[X] Princely Hunting: [Cost: 10 Favour from Prince Gloin] Prince Gloin will go out and slay "A beast that is physically mighty like a mammoth or Stonetusk but more so". Gain mats. It would be ridiculous for you to ask your King to go gallivanting around the North to find something for you to make a Rune out of, but a Prince or Princess? Well, that's just you helping them build their legend through the slaying of monsters and aiding their elders. The rarer the monster the greater the reward, but it may take longer to find. Monsters slain by Gloin provide more material by virtue of being the entire beast rather than just ordering a singular organ.
 
[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer and Retinue Recruitment

The only actions for the Hearthwardens we currently have are for recruitment and getting them to go out and kill stuff right? Are different (non killy) ones going to be added given that it was specified they also have utility skills to help the Holds in a variety of ways?
 
Thinking of asking Gloin for reagents, is it worth asking him to hunt down something that would strengthen our retinue's armour?
 
[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer and Retinue Recruitment

The only actions for the Hearthwardens we currently have are for recruitment and getting them to go out and kill stuff right? Are different (non killy) ones going to be added given that it was specified they also have utility skills to help the Holds in a variety of ways?
Retinue Aid plan is one that has them go out and preform rescue, healing, counsel of law and other such activities.
 
[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer, Apprentice Work, and Prod Yorri for Prod
-[X] [Simple] Apprentice work: [Cost: 1 apprentice action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness. Your young charges are now of an age you feel it acceptable for them to do a bit of exploration. Send your apprentices out into the hold and pick up a few tasks from whoever offers it to them. Give them a bit of experience for their upcoming trial as journeymen and let them build a reputation in the hold. You'll of course critique their work and use it as a learning experience as any good master ought to. 2 Apprentice Actions.
-[X] [Difficult] Write in, Zharrgral Pt. 2: [Cost: 1 action]. Productivity Like No Other will proc. Apply optional structural materials here. The plan in your mind burns to be made. A hammer to sunder foes and craft wonders. Its head Adamant and blazing with runes, and its haft good Silver Wutroth reinforced with Adamant rings studded with sapphires and wrapped in Elder Shardwyrm hide for grip. 3 Actions. Wear Barak Azamar while forging it.
--[X] Theme: Combo, Makerstrike: [Master Rune of Conduction (Elder Magma Dragon's Blood), Rune of Smednir (any suitable upgrade materials), Rune of Thungni (any suitable upgrade materials)]
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. Master Yorri is most certainly more learned and experienced than you are, but mayhaps you have something worth his time as well? You've taught a good amount, Adamant included, but there are still a few things Yorri himself is interested in. 1 Action
-[X] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk
-[X] ORDER: T3 Pegasus Heart

[X] Plan Mastery of Body and Mind
-[X] Teach your apprentices: [Cost: 1 action] Locked in for 3 turns.
-[X] [Simple] Apprentice work: [Cost: 1 apprentice action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness. 2 apprentice actions.
-[X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. 2 actions.
-[X] The Movement of Things Pt. 3: [Cost: 10 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action.
--[X] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. 4 prods.
-[X] The Mind of Things Pt. 3: [Cost: 10 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action.
--[X] Prod Yorri: [Cost 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. 4 prods.
-[X] ORDER: T3 Pegasus Heart
 
Is that a write-in? I don't think I saw that in the options in the update.
[X] Plan The Smith's Hammer and Retinue Aid
Nah it's there near the top under recruitment.

(*New*) [ ] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk
The ills in this case are healing, needed wisdom, rescue and civil works using their secondary skills.
 
Master Rune of Grungni on a Talisman
Hmm, personally I'd like to have the Talisman Master Rune slot be the compressed Siphoning Conversion combo Snorri's dead wife etched on his amulet.
Or maybe Gazul's rune could be on a personal item instead.
And maybe add the Rune of Gazul on the hypothetical amulet...? Like so:

Master Rune of Siphoning, Rune of Gazul, Rune of ???, with the theme and statement being something similar to honoring the dead by protecting the living.
 
I feel like going soo many actions overboard is a waste, the gm said that it helped but that he didn't want to have people abusing the system, that's what this is in my opinion. we're just wasting actions on it at this point with a ridiculous amount of overflow.
i feel like we should just spend 2 (or 3 seeing as productivity will proc anyway) actions on other things
 
I feel like going soo many actions overboard is a waste, the gm said that it helped but that he didn't want to have people abusing the system, that's what this is in my opinion. we're just wasting actions on it at this point with a ridiculous amount of overflow.
i feel like we should just spend 2 (or 3 seeing as productivity will proc anyway) actions on other things
I don't think that's the case, its been explained before that better materials and better combos lead to better items with more room for actions to improve them mechanically, and even if the actions don't all go to improving it mechanically that leaves it with narrative benefits, which are arguably even cooler.
 
I don't think that's the case, its been explained before that better materials and better combos lead to better items with more room for actions to improve them mechanically, and even if the actions don't all go to improving it mechanically that leaves it with narrative benefits, which are arguably even cooler.
Yeah, rule of cool which doesn't effect mechanics doesn't do it for me.
especially since we're already at a massive action deficit.
 
When we are done with Dum, I would like Snorri to take a 'trip' to the Elven, whether it is to Ultuan or just a trading post, to see what materials they have that are suitable for runes.
 
We have so much research to do on materials we already have in the vault that this seems rather premature.

Not to mention the likes of Mind and Motion of Things, Runemetal, Master Rune of Purification, etc.
 
Or we could do another Theme-based request instead of trying to come up with the runes ourselves...
Boo you.
Some of us enjoy this and even if we do eventually chose that, we have lost nothing for theorising and maybe even given soulcake ideas ;):V
You know, I have to admit that as each minute goes by since I posted that write-up, Valaya feels more and more like the wrong choice. It feels like the safe choice - like going for when I was thinking about going for Stalwart over Stone for Barak Azamar.

Alright, let me run with this a bit. Assume thematic appropriateness pays off, how does it manifest.

Well, Grungni's runes are primarily about redirection in combos. Not just of projectiles - whenever we use it in a combo, it redirects something to something.

Gazul's rune has three 'domains' that we know of. Souls, Violent death (Slaying/Grudge runes) and, for some reason, ranger-y stuff.

Stone...well, the thematics there are kind of obvious.

Souls can definitely play into the Conduit of the Earth theme, that's a lot of the reason Gazul is an attractive rune to me in the first place. In terms of practical effects though, maybe we can bring the death aspect in? Ranger-y deception seems antithetical to stone.

So Redirection + Death + Stone...I get the image of a boulder in the middle of a rushing current, unmoved as the water smashes onto and over it without effect. Maybe some sort of probability manipulation effect, allowing the dwarves in its range to cheat death if the margin is close enough?

There's no guarantee, but the more I think about it the more I want to try.

Also:





:p

You know, we don't need to do this from nothing first principles.
GAZUL:
Gazul safeguards the dead and wields a flaming longsword. To that end his Rune only ever really goes on tombs or temples dedicated to him. A few theories suggest his Rune is useful against that which should be dead, or in keeping things dead. While the former can't be confirmed, the Grudge Rune and the Slaying Runes derived from them all share roots in Grimnir and Gazul's Rune equally. Talismans show no obvious effect, though the Clergy are usually the only ones commissioning that kind of thing, a drunken Longbeard will tell you the Runes let them enact his will in putting the war dead to rest, but as Dwarfs are innately resistant to magic and the cult of Gazul secretive no one but the Cult will ever really know frankly. So not much can be said on that front. However, oddly enough or perhaps not, his Rune shares very few, but unmistakeable roots with Runes of Disguise, Lightstep and other more Ranger-y Runes. As Gazul is patron of outcasts and Clanless dwarfs there's a bit of a connection, but then again those same Runes have just as many links to Grimnir's Rune. War and Death do go hand in hand though.
So the talisman effect is unknown, and since typically banner effects are weak talisman but with AOE I think we can assume that the banner is also unknown.
Given what we know about grudge runes and stuff however and its weapon effect, I would hazard a guess that a Gazul banner would either have a turn or weakening effect against undead. It might empower dwarves against undead like a targeted Grimnir as well though, however given its links to Slaying and Grudge runes I expect its probably mostly offensive.
It also probably has a bonus to causing necromancy to fail that nobody will realise until the tomb kings pop up millenia down the line.

The rangery aspects are maybe related to him being in charge of the under earth and related to dead dwarves making their journeys there. However they may also be that he just considers his job an unglorious if necessary one and subtle connotations are linked to that. See how of all the ancestors, he was the one who dealt with Hashut and we wouldn't even know if we hadn't had interlude scenes about it.

I think you just want to make a Gazul item and you're trying to talk yourself into it. If you have to stretch as far as you did to get fate manipulating effects then I think thats a sign that this just isn't going to combo. And besides even if it did, I'm not sure it really fills the combo you originally wanted.
Additionally Grungni's rune is less about redirection and more about protection from physical threats compared to Valaya and Thungni which deal with magical/estoric ones. On armour it acts similarly to the Rune of Stone.
On Banners and Talismans that protective aspect is drawn to more physical threats because magical/esoteric shenanigans are far more in Thungni and Valaya's ballpark. In his other aspects the Rune of Grungni could equally provide a miner with a bit of luck in prospecting, not a truly large benefit, but noticeable/recordable to the Runesmiths at least.
So I think this combo would be more about hardening dwarves from the dangers of undead.

However, check the last sentence, if you want luck and fate, Grimnir does seem to be the rune that we start building from.

And for the record, I am in favour of spending actions to try weird combos to see what else we can learn about Runes.
 
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