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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Actually from the previous posts, the 'baby' is most likely referring to the runic weapon 'Trollslayer' we're making.
I was thinking it was Yorri's baby considering the QM also recently asked for good female versions of Snorri, and Magna said that she'd name the baby after Snorri

But, the axe being ridiculous would be great too, especially if we finish the gromnil research first and that makes it even better :D. Though if it is the axe, I almost regret not getting and using even more high tier material on it
 
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Though speaking of runic material, I can see a big limitation for the Dwarf runes (aside from needing Gromril). Namely that some very vital runic arrays use ingredients from very rare creatures like dragons.

I mean, there aren't that many of the things and we certainly aren't farming them. So over time it'll be harder and harder to make various runes as the dwarfs can't get the needed reagents.
 
Though speaking of runic material, I can see a big limitation for the Dwarf runes (aside from needing Gromril). Namely that some very vital runic arrays use ingredients from very rare creatures like dragons.

I mean, there aren't that many of the things and we certainly aren't farming them. So over time it'll be harder and harder to make various runes as the dwarfs can't get the needed reagents.
Doesn't help that random Ancestor gods are throwing perfectly good wyrm corpses into lava.
 
Well I was expecting to write this while the vote was still open but lol I guess not :V

Anyway! I've been thinking about how we might advance Runecraft as a craftsman and an artist under some relatively unusual, by way of their restrictions, rules and what tools we have to advance the craft therein.

The obvious out of the way first. By way of every Research option we can increase our knowledge of various parts of the craft, because three of them have to do with directly futzing about with runes and the other two are possibilities that illuminate parts of the craft, however just increasing our knowledge is only the first step. Not sitting on insights is the next step, with a couple of stages ranging from making works with the new knowledge to raising apprentices and journeymen with it and there's not a lot of room overall in what Snorri would actually accept to do as sensible which is fine. Apprentices and journeymen are one of the most effective ways of transmitting this insight anyway.


Related to this but which I'll organize at a bit of a remove since its something of a different sort is one of the three Research options that have to do with runes directly which is modifying a Master Rune. In general it highlights that modifying runes as we've learned is one of the primary methods that "new" Runes are made. They're derivative runes put to a new use and this applies just as much to Master Runes. We have a good number of known Master Runes and from each of them we essentially have four variants we could make to use them in other categories as defined by the Rule of Form. That's four new Master Runes for each Master Rune if we wanted to devote the time and effort to making them. Still requires we at least make things with them to tell other runesmiths its possible. And as a connected thing to this I'm relatively sure we don't know all of the currently extant Master Runes, which is likely because some of the Burudin and other Masters have probably come up with their own. We're not really in a position to learn those though so we're left with simply taking the opportunity if it presents itself.

Also related to this I've been pondering a project where we take the Master Rune of Gromril and change it into a Banner Rune and then make a standard for Kraka Drakk out of interlocking sheets of Pure Gromril and possibly some form of magic fabric. There's a variety out there. Inscribe it with the altered Master Rune of Gromril, the Rune of Sanctuary (which has to do with magnifying the anti-magic nature of Dwarfs, thus resisting Chaotic influence so it has some mystical similarity to Gromril itself), and the Rune of Determination or the Rune of Stoicism. The Rune of Determination would be about bolstering the stubborn spirit of Dwarfs to never concede defeat, and the Rune of Stoicism's fluff text from the wiki (which I take with a grain of salt) is about reminding Dwarfs about their ancestors and how they are never really alone. I'm not sure which would be better, but either is good.


Another is Runic Combos. There's some facets to this one which I'll get into. Overall first though it is something which provides regularity and codification almost as rituals or distinct widgets which we can look at, understand, and then take apart. And from what soulcake has already told us, even runes which are disharmonious may have unusual results though I'm not entirely sure if they'd be an outright Combo. Something to keep in mind but moving on. The first facet of Runic Combos is that each Combo is in many ways I think, the root of a small tree of possibly related variant Combos by way of us knowing a certain Combo works and exists, then coming up with another similar Combo and concept. Like swapping the Rune of Warding in the Conversion Combo for the Master Rune of Spite, which might be another combo along the same lines of Conversion but a bit different, we haven't had the opportunity to check and won't for a little while at least. So every Combo we know is a potential gateway into new Combos. Which also highlights the value finding new Combos, because with each new one found the design and possibility space of Combos becomes better defined. When we get the opportunity we should try to find new ones or learn ones others have discovered.

Personally I expect Combos to be the rarer knowledge commodity amongst Runesmiths when compared to modifications to individual runes but of similar value. Additionally Runic Combos have a testing/seeking them out cycle that involves the creation of lots of vaguely similar magic items with unusual variations given the Rule of Pride. Especially with Master Runes in any Combo.

Though speaking of runic material, I can see a big limitation for the Dwarf runes (aside from needing Gromril). Namely that some very vital runic arrays use ingredients from very rare creatures like dragons.

I mean, there aren't that many of the things and we certainly aren't farming them. So over time it'll be harder and harder to make various runes as the dwarfs can't get the needed reagents.
And here's an idea that skipped my mind. So on top of the above ideas I've mentioned going along with this one you're suggesting, I think another way to improve Runecraft is to find alternate ingredients which can act in place of others. Mechanically we don't have the tools to do this, and I'm honestly not sure if we ever will or even should but as it stands we know older Runesmiths get better at the craft and it stands as a good possibility to represent Runelords older and better than us.

Of course there's also a final and lonely path which doesn't improve the craft much, but is pretty inevitable if we live long enough, is watch Snorri get skilled enough that he might not need some ingredients like how he doesn't need the Chant for every Rune. Its basically stated that ingredients are crutches. More important than the Chants are, but still crutches.

In a Tl;DR teaching people what we know is definitely a Thing that needs doing, though I expect that many apprentices won't actually meet even the quest thread's standards because once we're done training up Fjolla and Dolgi I expect that an option along the lines of "Go find a new apprentice(s)" will show up in the General tap of options and sometimes the options presented just won't make the cut.
 
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Though speaking of runic material, I can see a big limitation for the Dwarf runes (aside from needing Gromril). Namely that some very vital runic arrays use ingredients from very rare creatures like dragons.
Well, only Armour Runes seem to need Gromril.

- It takes to Runes like dwarfs to beer. Both substances simply resonate with the other on a level beyond most everything else.
- Gromril is the only surface Armour Runes would deign adhere themselves to.
But it's the metal that it seems runes go best with, so the point remains. A lack of ability to get the proper supplies will definitely be an issue once the situation worsens.
 
Though speaking of runic material, I can see a big limitation for the Dwarf runes (aside from needing Gromril). Namely that some very vital runic arrays use ingredients from very rare creatures like dragons.

I mean, there aren't that many of the things and we certainly aren't farming them. So over time it'll be harder and harder to make various runes as the dwarfs can't get the needed reagents.
I think the rarity is part of the point, what they do is entirely because of what people believe they will do (if I'm understanding the warp correctly) so farming the ingredients, unless it was kept secret or small scale, would probably significantly reduce their potency over time, as people get used to the ingredients being more common and thus unconsciously see them as less valuable, effecting how much they effect the warp
 
Well, only Armour Runes seem to need Gromril.


But it's the metal that it seems runes go best with, so the point remains. A lack of ability to get the proper supplies will definitely be an issue once the situation worsens.
I expect that when shit really hits the fancy ventilation stonework we're going to be forced to go on expeditions to hack supplies out of the Daemonic horde until the Vortex goes up and they all go pop like soap bubbles.


I think the rarity is part of the point, what they do is entirely because of what people believe they will do (if I'm understanding the warp correctly) so farming the ingredients, unless it was kept secret or small scale, would probably significantly reduce their potency over time, as people get used to the ingredients being more common and thus unconsciously see them as less valuable, effecting how much they effect the warp
Due to the unusual nature of the Aether/Warp there's also a bit of self-referentialism going on that changes this consideration a little bit. Its the same kind of thing that sustains concepts like the Winds of Magic and Daemons in the world, but overall we can expect Magic and thus Runecraft to fade after the Vortex goes up.

Like, the potential energy of the magical realm of the Warp is shaped by belief in many ways but it is its own malevolently sapient thing that operates by strange and ever changing rules so there's a lot of inertia and metaphysical weight behind things.
 
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Of course there's also a final and lonely path which doesn't improve the craft much, but is pretty inevitable if we live long enough, is watch Snorri get skilled enough that he might not need some ingredients like how he doesn't need the Chant for every Rune. Its basically stated that ingredients are crutches. More important than the Chants are, but still crutches.
There's another question, Snorri's runic workshop. If and when he passes is another Runesmith he deemed worthy allowed to use the place or is it destroyed/sealed/buried etc.
 
There's another question, Snorri's runic workshop. If and when he passes is another Runesmith he deemed worthy allowed to use the place or is it destroyed/sealed/buried etc.
I'm honestly not sure. I remember from Divided Loyalties that it got brought up that when Runelords "die" in canon they simply disappear one day from their workshops, with the implication that they found a way to the Glittering Realm and walked through the door and passed from this world.

I can't remember if the workshops are sealed after that, but if we're old enough and can find someone Snorri considers worthy then I don't see why Snorri with his hypothetical extremely advanced age wouldn't be able to say that a worthy successor could use it and have it happen with a minimum of grumbling.
 
I expect that when shit really hits the fancy ventilation stonework we're going to be forced to go on expeditions to hack supplies out of the Daemonic horde until the Vortex goes up and they all go pop like soap bubbles.



Due to the unusual nature of the Aether/Warp there's also a bit of self-referentialism going on that changes this consideration a little bit. Its the same kind of thing that sustains concepts like the Winds of Magic and Daemons in the world, but overall we can expect Magic and thus Runecraft to fade after the Vortex goes up.
We could create an Underway route to the sea and have a fishing operation to supply the Hold for the duration of the First War. Like how the Norse Dwarfs did in canon.

There's also the bonus possibility that if our people can gain some sea sailing capacity, reestablishing contact with the rest of Karaz Ankor would become easier. Could even be possible to trade with the High Elves directly after contact

We're pretty far up north, much closer to the Polar Gates than the rest of civilization. If Alaric can find a dozen Storms of Magic to create the Runefangs, finding such magical events should be easier for us.
 
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We could create an Underway route to the sea and have a fishing operation to supply the Hold for the duration of the First War. Like how the Norse Dwarfs did in canon.

There's also the bonus possibility that if our people can some sea sailing capacity, reestablishing contact with the rest of Karaz Ankor would become easier

We're pretty far up north, much closer to the Polar Gates than the rest of civilization. If Alaric can find a dozen Storms of Magic to create the Runefangs, finding such magical events should be easier for us.
Yeah. I expect that by necessity some of Snorri's greatest works will be forged during that time.
 
Yeah. I expect that by necessity some of Snorri's greatest works will be forged during that time.
If we're specially lucky, Grimnir could decide to leave his axe with us when he comes north. Wouldn't that be a bloody treat.

Studying something like the Axe and Rune of Unbinding could lead to incredible works.

Even if replicating such works would be beyond us, a pale shadow of a legend is still a shadow of a legend.
 
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If we're specially lucky, Grimnir could decide to leave his axe with us when he comes north. Wouldn't that be a bloody treat.

Studying something like the Axe and Rune of Unbinding could lead to incredible works.

Even if replicating such works would be beyond us.
That'd take some stupendous luck, but it would be interesting! And take centuries/millennia :V
 
That'd take some stupendous luck, but it would be interesting! And take centuries/millennia :V
The First Incursion is likely not that far off. After it starts, Grimnir meets Caledor, hears the theory about the Chaos portal, and decides to venture north.

I'm expecting to see Grimnir in a matter of a century, plus a decade or two at the latest.

Though, getting his Axe is a stretch, yes.
 
The First Incursion is likely not that far off. After it starts, Grimnir meets Caledor, hears the theory about the Chaos portal, and decides to venture north.

I'm expecting to see Grimnir in a matter of a century, plus a decade or two at the latest.

Though, getting his Axe is a stretch, yes.
Yeah. My reference to centuries or millennia was about looking at and understanding the Rune of Unbinding.

Here's hoping we can finish our Defenses before the Far North disgorges an infinite horde of daemons.
 
Yeah. My reference to centuries or millennia was about looking at and understanding the Rune of Unbinding.

Here's hoping we can finish our Defenses before the Far North disgorges an infinite horde of daemons.
Understanding the Rune of Unbinding would take centuries, yes.

Dwarf Fortress Warhammer Fantasy.

I mean, doesn't he leave it up in one of the northern cities? What else will they use it for, if the runesmiths don't use it for research. Albeit he leaves it here a very long time from now
He does give to a Hold up north.

I think he left it less so someone could study it and more so someone could get some use from it, because I think he had to pick between guarding the Middle Moutain or chancing killing the Dark Gods and Grimnir took the safer route. He likely didn't think he'd need a weapon just to hold a choke point.
 
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so after watching arch's rune video, i think we should spec in innovation, not in making new runes, but in figuring out new ways to make existing runes, some runes literally are forgotten and/or not made because the material/situation does not exist any more, so we gotta try to find a more 'common' way to recreate a rune that once used thousand year old dragon's blood with something that does exist.
 
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