On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
To be fair, theres a reason Conduction is our default MRune. Its never a bad choice.
Now I'm also going to throw out a complete wildcard as a final option. MFraternity.
We already have two ally buffing combos on this gronti, we could use those as the basis for a Set rather than an ice or breaking combo. And it has roots in the rune of Grimnir.
My first thoughts are something like Eagles and Ferocity, two of the more aggresive ally buffs seems appropriate for a weapon, although if we wanted to invoke a shield wall then Perservance and Amber would also be options.
Unfortunately it does move away from your original inspiration.
I'm going to stick with SMASH SMASH SMASH for it, yeah; if a set combo is really necessary I'd sooner make a shield and belt to shoot for it than anything else.
A project that also required dedicated facilities to house the construct as it was being built, the development of entirely new methods to process Adamant at that scale, and of course entirely new Runes to research and apply for both Gronti and its.
Who gives a shit about US? What I was worried about and the reason I voted to NOT allow the first one to continue despite what others keep saying is exactly what you are espousing.
Paying no heed to the Runesmith Guild because they won't be able to do shit to us, so we make changes without thought to the consequences of that change beyond just the personal. No thought to the fact that things are the way they are for a reason, so breaking some norms or making some new ones come with the consequence of then being the one totally responsible for all the unintended consequences that comes next. We will have no excuse to hide behind regardless of what our intentions were at the start, because what it actually settles into in a few centuries or longer will be on us and no other.
On that note, I will be voting for the continuation of our "allow but be hands off" that the first vote went for. I can't put that genie back in it's bottle, but I can make it so we don't fuck things up even further by being inconsistent about things. Start as you plan to continue. A sentiment that is even more true for dwarves compared to the aspirational nature that it is for us.
Or that time near the start of the quest he got So Pissed fighting a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch he shouted hard enough to crack a cliffside near Karak Kadrin in Peak Pass to reveal a seam of gems.
I've always wanted to figure out a Master Rune of Bellowing (Talismanic MR) that's inscribed on a warhorn that does something similar.
Basically releases damaging/concussive soundwaves by blowing really hard into it.
@Dark as Silver Also, as far as costs go, like I said I'd consider it done with just, like, Maraz itself and the stone it's made of, with various T2s as its equipment; Malokak, Urkirunk, Alkron, they're a part of its armory I'd like to see, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have proposed them, but it would still do its main job of "See wall, smash wall, see bad guy, smash bad guy" without.
What has the actual benefit of the Engineering competitions been? Increasing cross-pollination between Runesmithing and Engineering, two areas that are linked, but in a until now underappreciated way.
What do you get if you transfer that benefit to the Metalworkers? Are they gonna introduce Runesmiths to smithing?
I think the competitions discussed now won't add much to Khazagar while taking up space and crowding out the valuable stuff that we already set up.
@Dark as Silver Also, as far as costs go, like I said I'd consider it done with just, like, Maraz itself and the stone it's made of, with various T2s as its equipment; Malokak, Urkirunk, Alkron, they're a part of its armory I'd like to see, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have proposed them, but it would still do its main job of "See wall, smash wall, see bad guy, smash bad guy" without.
Question: Considering that you made Maraz before the update, any chance you can consider changing the Gronti Runes to Compressed Improved Waking, though with the other two runes on it unchanged?
Question: Considering that you made Maraz before the update, any chance you can consider changing the Gronti Runes to Compressed Improved Waking, though with the other two runes on it unchanged?
Part of my thought process was making it out of Runes we already have and not tossing more work in aside from actually constructing it, so maybe if we actually compress the combo at some point but until then I'm not planning on it.
Admittedly, I am also fishing a little for a combo for Stronk Gronti (Stronkti, if you will)
@Dark as Silver Also, as far as costs go, like I said I'd consider it done with just, like, Maraz itself and the stone it's made of, with various T2s as its equipment; Malokak, Urkirunk, Alkron, they're a part of its armory I'd like to see, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have proposed them, but it would still do its main job of "See wall, smash wall, see bad guy, smash bad guy" without.
100% approve, I've been arguing that we've should make more use of set requests and that we're over valuing the high end of equipment.
However I disagree with your expectations, we've not made a T2 this entire game and the last time we did a set of items we got T3's and 4's and that was centuries ago. Due to the size I don't think we can expect Legendries, however we can expect Epic and hope for Legendary.
Question: Considering that you made Maraz before the update, any chance you can consider changing the Gronti Runes to Compressed Improved Waking, though with the other two runes on it unchanged?
It would need to wait for the combo to be compressed, which can't begin until after the Gronti has been made pushing the whole thing after turn 62. After we've had to go to war for the next Firmir portal turn so that kind of defeats the point of making it cheap and easy for the war now.
However I disagree with your expectations, we've not made a T2 this entire game and the last time we did a set of items we got T3's and 4's and that was centuries ago. Due to the size I don't think we can expect Legendries, however we can expect Epic and hope for Legendary.
I was gesturing at what happened with the Maiden, where it ended up with just a bunch of T2s, though admittedly Snorri is good enough at this point that they might just end up T3s anyway, you're not wrong.
What has the actual benefit of the Engineering competitions been? Increasing cross-pollination between Runesmithing and Engineering, two areas that are linked, but in a until now underappreciated way.
What do you get if you transfer that benefit to the Metalworkers? Are they gonna introduce Runesmiths to smithing?
And as for what do runesmiths gain? More friends and contacts. Look at Nain and his friendly relation with a clan of metalsmiths, for example.
Runesmiths don't actually have to make the things they put runes on: a piece of armor made by a 200 year old armorsmith will be better quality than one made by a 200 year old runesmith. By their skills combined, they would make a better suit.
And while Snorri also doesn't do it much, Snorri's biggest deed so far is actually metallurgy related. Close collaboration with the Metalsmiths guild would increase the overall skill of Runesmiths making stuff in general.
What has the actual benefit of the Engineering competitions been? Increasing cross-pollination between Runesmithing and Engineering, two areas that are linked, but in a until now underappreciated way.
What do you get if you transfer that benefit to the Metalworkers? Are they gonna introduce Runesmiths to smithing?
I think the competitions discussed now won't add much to Khazagar while taking up space and crowding out the valuable stuff that we already set up.
Access to rare alloys via purchase, access to metallurgical recipes, X-Factors that I'm not going to push too hard for but I do consider possible include standing and favors with the Cult of Smednir which would be nice.
I was gesturing at what happened with the Maiden, where it ended up with just a bunch of T2s, though admittedly Snorri is good enough at this point that they might just end up T3s anyway, you're not wrong.
The thing is, the Maiden wasn't a deliberate build, it was something Snorri put out to practice what he'd learned about MWaking out of a single Action that was dedicated to helping Karag Dum.
This build will be at least 1 action dedicated to it rather than as part of something else, it will be procing free actions off of the Firmir grudge and if we're honest, we're probably going to put two or three actions into it in order to proc Productivity. And non of the T2's had MRunes.
The thing is, the Maiden wasn't a deliberate build, it was something Snorri put out to practice what he'd learned about MWaking out of a single Action that was dedicated to helping Karag Dum.
This build will be at least 1 action dedicated to it rather than as part of something else, it will be procing free actions off of the Firmir grudge and if we're honest, we're probably going to put two or three actions into it in order to proc Productivity. And non of the T2's had MRunes.
Okay I think I might be a l'il eepy at the moment because I'm trying to figure this out, so I guess let me lay my cards out on the table so it isn't just us talking past each other because at the moment I think you and I may be gesturing at the same thing and I'm just illiterate:
I think Maraz when completed will come out with just a bunch of generic T2s/T3s lacking Master Runes when first completed that I hope (But do not consider necessary) to replace with the named T4 I also presented in the proposal.
I think treating the Metalsmiths the same way we do the Engineers is the best route, but to mollify* the House, make it clear it's not an option for every guild in the Karaz Ankor; Smednir and Morgrim are the brothers of Thungni, after all, so it makes sense that their crafts would be given a little extra leeway - if the Caravaneers wanted to host a contest to build a better wagon, it'd have to be as individuals. (This also would tie in nicely with Snorri's history of working with the Cults, too.)
* "Mollify" is not rated for use on Dwarfen Longbeards. Terms and conditions may apply.
I say go with option two with the Metalsmiths. I don't see the problem with them hosting competitions but that should be done on their end. Best to keep our hands clean.
Also, a dragon Gronti would be so cool but that cost. Holy shit.
So, one interesting consequence of our Awakening combo is that it opens up Set Combo possibilities around the theme of temporary buffs and cooldowns. And the planned laser armour using the Lonely Rune almost fits within that due to having to be charged up, except for the fact that something that is a single MR, rather than a Combo, likely cannot participate in the Set Combo.
But what if we instead construct our own take on the laser based on the original Dragonbreath MR? That would fit and be eligible.
Okay I think I might be a l'il eepy at the moment because I'm trying to figure this out, so I guess let me lay my cards out on the table so it isn't just us talking past each other because at the moment I think you and I may be gesturing at the same thing and I'm just illiterate:
I think Maraz when completed will come out with just a bunch of generic T2s/T3s lacking Master Runes when first completed that I hope (But do not consider necessary) to replace with the named T4 I also presented in the proposal.
Okay, I thought you were intending to propose it like this:
[ ] [Difficult] Gronti Thane Set. pt 1:
-[ ]Maraz-Dreugi Bar: A great monument of the hardest stone, forged in emulation of a noble, brolic Thane of Kraka Drak, intended to break the mightiest of fortresses so that a situation such as the earliest campaigns against the Fimir, where so much was pinned on the presence of Sven Baragmaker and his mighty war machines, do not repeat themselves. Standing 25 meters tall, wielding a mallet and clad in pure gromril armor it is also capable of engaging with the mightiest of foes and fighting them, beating them.
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of the Ram, Rune of Might.
-[ ] Malokak Skodrengi: The biggest impediment to Maraz-Dreugi Bar is haste, speed, range, avoidance in general. Quick, powerful opponents swooping in for mighty blows, doing sufficient damage and then escaping; a lesser, but still at least theoretically possible threat, would be ranged attacks in general, though it's hard to imagine who could actually present sufficient force to destroy it. To avoid this, armor, mighty armor, Pure Gromril scales lacquered a bright cyan ( shall be filigreed with the finest of gold depicting the long, storied history of Kraka Drak, in particular the striking out of many, many Grudges, from the death of the Greedy One so many centuries ago, to the slaying of Haruzrildrakk, and many other woeful foes aside defeated and slain by mighty Dwarf hands, a testament to their long history...and the cold surety of their vengeance, with their final deaths instead inscribed on massive scales of precious stone, diamond, rubies and more beside shall be forged.
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Blizzards, Rune of Snow, Rune of Frost.
-[ ]Urkirunk: A mallet, to be wielded in one or both hands, made of Wutroth for the grip and steel in the head. The head shall be inscribed with images of the Great Incursion, in particular the death of Kholek Suneater while the shaft shall be decorated with knotwork depictions of the Liberation of Karag Dum in brightest and best gold.
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Conduction, Rune of Force, Rune of Fury.
-[ ] The Old Story of Grimnir: Many have told the tale of how Grimnir sacrificed Himself, doomed and defiant, going to the North to force shut the way. This? This is not that. This is how Grimnir lived, stories when He lived, when He walked among His people. Myths gathered from every part of the Karaz Ankor, threaded in gold onto fine silk bordered with good Brana down and draped on Maraz as a cloak, legends verified by elders ancient when Snorri was young, and in particular His campaigns to clean the north. Woven into the fabric itself shall be three Runes:
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Beserk, Rune of Choler.
But you're telling me that you intended to propose each individually over multiple design action. And that the Gronti which would be the first would have temporary T2's until the other bits are completed.
Here is why I thought that a single set design makes more sense given the design goal of being a cheap and effective way to contribute to the war:
Doing something like this would let us drop one action into the design for all and then use a combo of three for 4 total actions and a mean 7.8 effective actions + 1 or 2 depending on if the Shadow Meargh Grudge procs, split between all 4 items that would be an average of about 2 effective actions each.
If instead we did each item individually we'd need 1 design action and 1 item per piece for 8 total actions and an average of 1.6 +1 or 2 effective actions per item. Total 10.4 or 14.4 effective actions.
Personally I'm not optimistic that the Shadow Meargh Grudge will proc as I think it would need to be an item with a specific plan to deal with her specifically in order to activate, however if I'm wrong that's obviously a significant benefit for the individual approach.
Doing each item independently then gets a higher expected quality of 0.4 actions per item done (1.2 if I'm wrong about the Meargh) since it gets the grudge actions 4 times. However due to the significantly increased design cost we're actually getting a lower effective action gain per action of 1.8 ((4*3.6)/8) compared to the 2.45 of doing it as a set, and that is assuming that the Shadow Meargh grudge does proc.
Given that unless the Shadow Meargh grudge does proc the difference in item quality is only 0.4 actions it seems to me that an additional 4 actions to complete the Gronti one at a time would be better spent making Maraz-Dreugi Bar a twin rather than spending that focus on the equipment.
This calculations assumes that Karaz-Kazak-Rhun is not used in either approach as I'm not fishing for legendaries.
Okay, I thought you were intending to propose it like this:
[ ] [Difficult] Gronti Thane Set. pt 1:
-[ ]Maraz-Dreugi Bar: A great monument of the hardest stone, forged in emulation of a noble, brolic Thane of Kraka Drak, intended to break the mightiest of fortresses so that a situation such as the earliest campaigns against the Fimir, where so much was pinned on the presence of Sven Baragmaker and his mighty war machines, do not repeat themselves. Standing 25 meters tall, wielding a mallet and clad in pure gromril armor it is also capable of engaging with the mightiest of foes and fighting them, beating them.
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of the Ram, Rune of Might.
-[ ] Malokak Skodrengi: The biggest impediment to Maraz-Dreugi Bar is haste, speed, range, avoidance in general. Quick, powerful opponents swooping in for mighty blows, doing sufficient damage and then escaping; a lesser, but still at least theoretically possible threat, would be ranged attacks in general, though it's hard to imagine who could actually present sufficient force to destroy it. To avoid this, armor, mighty armor, Pure Gromril scales lacquered a bright cyan ( shall be filigreed with the finest of gold depicting the long, storied history of Kraka Drak, in particular the striking out of many, many Grudges, from the death of the Greedy One so many centuries ago, to the slaying of Haruzrildrakk, and many other woeful foes aside defeated and slain by mighty Dwarf hands, a testament to their long history...and the cold surety of their vengeance, with their final deaths instead inscribed on massive scales of precious stone, diamond, rubies and more beside shall be forged.
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Blizzards, Rune of Snow, Rune of Frost.
-[ ]Urkirunk: A mallet, to be wielded in one or both hands, made of Wutroth for the grip and steel in the head. The head shall be inscribed with images of the Great Incursion, in particular the death of Kholek Suneater while the shaft shall be decorated with knotwork depictions of the Liberation of Karag Dum in brightest and best gold.
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Conduction, Rune of Force, Rune of Fury.
-[ ] The Old Story of Grimnir: Many have told the tale of how Grimnir sacrificed Himself, doomed and defiant, going to the North to force shut the way. This? This is not that. This is how Grimnir lived, stories when He lived, when He walked among His people. Myths gathered from every part of the Karaz Ankor, threaded in gold onto fine silk bordered with good Brana down and draped on Maraz as a cloak, legends verified by elders ancient when Snorri was young, and in particular His campaigns to clean the north. Woven into the fabric itself shall be three Runes:
-- [ ] Choose: Master Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Beserk, Rune of Choler.
Doing something like this would let us drop one action into the design for all and then use a combo of three for 4 total actions and a mean 7.8 effective actions + 1 or 2 depending on if the Shadow Meargh Grudge procs, split between all 4 items that would be an average of about 2 effective actions each.
If instead we did each item individually we'd need 4 design actions, and 1 item per piece for 8 total actions and an average of 1.6 +1 or 2 effective actions per item. Total 10.4 or 14.4 effective actions.
Personally I'm not optimistic that the Shadow Meargh Grudge will proc as I think it would need to be an item with a specific plan to deal with her specifically in order to activate, however if I'm wrong that's obviously a significant benefit for the individual approach.
Doing each item independently then gets a higher expected quality of 0.4 actions per item done (1.2 if I'm wrong about the Meargh) since it gets the grudge actions 4 times. However due to the significantly increased design cost we're actually getting a lower effective action gain of 1.8 ((4*3.6)/8) compared to the 2.2 of doing it as a set, and that is assuming that the Shadow Meargh grudge does proc.
Given that unless the Shadow Meargh grudge does proc the difference in item quality is only 0.4 actions it seems to me that an additional 4 actions to complete the Gronti one at a time would be better spent making Maraz-Dreugi Bar a twin rather than spending that focus on the equipment.
You make a fair point, question mark man. Let me chew on it for a while. I've been informed that the soonest possible time it could be fit in without screwing up the capstone is T.59, maybe, so I will try to have that nailed down before then.
For me I think that this is a cop out. Our entire goal at a 51+% voter base is to surpass the Ancestors and the potential for a guild wide help with our metal research is I think worth the angry Grumbly noises from the Runesmith Guild. Helping others is just our very achievable midterm goal while we aim to become an Ancestor.
Additionally we've reached the point where the backlash is unlikely to be bad for us. Namely because we have the hammer after the Khazagar was made and have let 0 info slip out on the circumstance. As far as outsiders would be concerend there is a very real possibility that the Khazagar was approved by Thungni and our standing rising up enough to silence some of our usual opposiiton
Ignoring that circumstance changes, I disagree as the value of a potentially the entire Metalsmith guild throughout the Dwarf Empire funneling resource into our project is an incredibly useful potential outcome.
Additionally Vragni is right there willing to take in the Engineer guild. It's not like we're leaving the Engineer guild in a lurch, especially as Vragni's Forge institution is more suited for the engineer guild
I wouldn´t go out of our way to anger the guild on this tbh. Don´t wanna risk schism and censure too hard.
Look at the end of the day why is this worth being inconsistent? Why are the metalsmiths more deserving of collaboration than the engineers? It can't just be 'well we are more willing to take risks' because we have a lot of political pull in the Far North.Our choice will be interpreted in that light no matter what we say. Yeah we did not take the heir vote, but we did not stop being the Eldest Runelord in the Far North either.
Additionally Vragni is right there willing to take in the Engineer guild. It's not like we're leaving the Engineer guild in a lurch, especially as Vragni's Forge institution is more suited for the engineer guild
Vragni, in this hypothetical, would be courting just Ornsmotek's Chapter of the Engineers Guild.
Every Guild has a Master Chapter somewhere in the Karaz Ankor (usually Everpeak but not always) but every Hold's Guild is an individual Chapter of the larger Guild. The level of cohesion across chapters varies by Guild, with something like the Runesmiths so far down one end that they fall off the scale and others so united they're basically just one Clan across multiple Holds cough, spoilers for Jorri, cough. Generally though, individual Chapters don't mess with each other unless their parent Holds come together/fight or the Master Chapter starts calling meetings. Otherwise they act as they please within Guild remit and may even develop drastically different attitudes from each other, come into competition or collaborate at their leisure. #Culture
Haven't been keeping up with stuff on the site lately but just got through a load of backlog and I'm very happy to finally see work start in the capstone gronti. Can't wait to see the hammer in action. By the way, are we replacing our axe in combat with it? Going dual hammers?
Haven't been keeping up with stuff on the site lately but just got through a load of backlog and I'm very happy to finally see work start in the capstone gronti. Can't wait to see the hammer in action. By the way, are we replacing our axe in combat with it? Going dual hammers?
Vragni, in this hypothetical, would be courting just Ornsmotek's Chapter of the Engineers Guild.
Every Guild has a Master Chapter somewhere in the Karaz Ankor (usually Everpeak but not always) but every Hold's Guild is an individual Chapter of the larger Guild. The level of cohesion across chapters varies by Guild, with something like the Runesmiths so far down one end that they fall off the scale and others so united they're basically just one Clan across multiple Holds cough, spoilers for Jorri, cough. Generally though, individual Chapters don't mess with each other unless their parent Holds come together/fight or the Master Chapter starts calling meetings. Otherwise they act as they please within Guild remit and may even develop drastically different attitudes from each other, come into competition or collaborate at their leisure. #Culture
To what extent is the local / master chapter a leveled hierarchy.
If I was king of Karak Mountain and wanted to setup a bunch of new guilds would I be sending invitations to Everpeak for new members and then they'd pass that around and eventually I'd have a guild that only answered to everpeak. Or would I send an invitation to the nearby Karak Cave and they'd send whoever they could knock free and I'd have a guild that sort of defers to Karak Cave which sort of defers to someone else in a chain that eventually ends in Everpeak?
Haven't been keeping up with stuff on the site lately but just got through a load of backlog and I'm very happy to finally see work start in the capstone gronti. Can't wait to see the hammer in action. By the way, are we replacing our axe in combat with it? Going dual hammers?
Ironically it depends and probably not when its needed the most.
Its worth more than our life so theoretically, in a rearguard/ doomed last stand situations we would probably send it away so that it can hopefully make it back to civilisation.
Gonna depend on how far and how safe we feel like its going.
