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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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OceanReaper said:
When we condensed a Combo into a Master rune, will the Master rune have same level of power as the Combo or will it be weaker because it's one rune instead of tree runes?
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We've seen in the past that the Master Rune of a compressed combo doesn't always have all of the effects of the combo that composed it; Take Expurgation for example. While Combo!Expurgation is capable of purifying Gromril into Adamant, compressed Master!Expurgation is not. I think something similar happened with the Combo and compression resulting in the Rune of Thungni's Presence?
 
OceanReaper said:
When we condensed a Combo into a Master rune, will the Master rune have same level of power as the Combo or will it be weaker because it's one rune instead of tree runes?
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Unclear, possible case by case basis.
The only easily calculable comparison we have is MSpite and the SpiteStrike combo. In that case the combo goes from reflecting equal damage to reflecting triple damge. So on that basis MRunes are significantly more powerful than combos. However they also lose the underlying benefits of the runes in the combo, so in this case 2x Might and a Parrying. So its not a 1:1 comparison between a compressed MRune and the item it was made of.
E: nice three mutually exclusive answers?
@soulcake can you clarify?
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Evilleviis imagining the future laid out that only they can see ahead of us as we turn the Runesmiths guild into a mere extension of our own will and desires. Of which coordinating with the Metalsmiths guild is merely the first step.
Thats the AP hell he's referring to, not just this vote.
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Technically it's only Snorri and Snorrists. The RS guild are unlikely never be able to coordinate such a feat unless a Heir rises up to do so.

That said that's an action with 10+ turn to pay off and it's really not worth it for the research we would sacrifice.
DragonParadox said:
Certainly, we are not bound by fairness anymore than any other form of morality, short of things that would make Snori go slayer, but I do not think we have ever transgressed on this scale against so many.
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We did with the Khazagar.

One of the general opposition to the Khazagar a similar line of logic. That the future generation don't deserve or need a better way to transmit information. It's not a one on one comparison of course, but the conservative ideas of tradition and consistency with Thungni teaching placed us in a similar position.

That said this is a more akin to when we had the Gromril chainmail discussion with the 3rd parties looking to buy, where for dawi society the expected outcome was for us to choose a side to supply and it was their job to present the best case to nab the deal from their competitors.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Unclear, possible case by case basis.
The only easily calculable comparison we have is MSpite and the SpiteStrike combo. In that case the combo goes from reflecting equal damage to reflecting triple damge. So on that basis MRunes are significantly more powerful than combos. However they also lose the underlying benefits of the runes in the combo, so in this case 2x Might and a Parrying. So its not a 1:1 comparison between a compressed MRune and the item it was made of.
E: nice three mutually exclusive answers?
@soulcake can you clarify?
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Usually more powerful, sometimes its only just as much, rarely less. The main benefit of Compression is in the name. You open up two more slots* to give yourself more room to work with.

*Unless you make a Lonely Rune
 
OceanReaper said:
@soulcake Thanks for clarification.

When we get ready to build the adamat Dragon we should condensed the Combo of Empowered Waking to a Master Rune to free up some space for more runes.
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We can't compress until we've made the combo the first time I think?
I assume that soulcake patched out the infinite combo glitch I suggested back when we could get trait exp from free compress/understands.

At the least we don't have the combo complexity so we don't know what the cost is.
 
Evillevi said:
We did with the Khazagar.

One of the general opposition to the Khazagar a similar line of logic. That the future generation don't deserve or need a better way to transmit information. It's not a one on one comparison of course, but the conservative ideas of tradition and consistency with Thungni teaching placed us in a similar position.

That said this is a more akin to when we had the Gromril chainmail discussion with the 3rd parties looking to buy, where for dawi society the expected outcome was for us to choose a side to supply and it was their job to present the best case to nab the deal from their competitors.
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This is like with Gromril chain, except it is not the expected outcome that we play favorites so we would inflict shame on the un-favorite.
 
Dark as Silver said:
We can't compress until we've made the combo the first time I think?
I assume that soulcake patched out the infinite combo glitch I suggested back when we could get trait exp from free compress/understands.

At the least we don't have the combo complexity so we don't know what the cost is.
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If that's the case we can have Karstah make a prototype gronti to support the Hearthguard with that combo.
 
Re:Metalsmiths vs. engineers can we just say that now we've had an appropriate length of time to test how it's working we're offering both of them a closer level of collaboration, and offer the better deal to both of them?

On conflict, Snorri decided that he wanted to be the equal of the Ancestor Gods. The way they did what they did was to destroy the version of dwarven society they emerged from, at least in part by going to war with and killing the dissenters who refused to get with their programme.

By committing himself to be like the Ancestors, we probably now need to be prepared to actually walk the walk of being like the Ancestors. That very likely includes treating the current dwarven way of life as ore that's going into the smelter to be melted down and something new created from what remains after what he considers impurities are discarded and cast away (if we follow the Ancestor's example, by killing them).

If we wanted to just follow in Thungni's footsteps and be a pillar holding up the status quo, that was the heir option.
 
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The Brotherhood of Dron's northern complex has begun now that the apprentices are storing their smelters in Khazagar. I really enjoyed them working together on their new smelters.

Also yay, finally a Awakening Combo. We don't need to compress it for the dragon but it'll be 1ap to do in a future compress all the things turn to get some good research yields out of it. We're going to need a lot of blood so it would be very convenient if the fimir manged to wrangle an elder wyrm somewhere.
 
Alratan said:
If that's the case we can have Karstah make a prototype gronti to support the Hearthguard with that combo.
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I would wait until soulcake gives an okay as this feels kinda cheesy to me. And I'd also wait until I heard from BungieONI that it can be fit in the timeline.
However given we've already substituted a design action on the high kings gift it does seem potentially doable. As long as we re pay that one design action.

Based on what Voikirium said that their Gronti couldn't be done until 59 without derailing any plans and that the design is one turned on 60, then we can compress on 61 if the complexity allows (MWaking complexity is currently 3, so we have relevant traits of 3Master Odd + 1 Engineering so assuming the minimum increase in complexity then its hitting the min action cap of two) then we redesign on 62? And build on 63? Seems like theres no way to avoid delaying the Dragon unless the dragon itself was already on the latest expected timeline and there were no requisites we needed to do on turns 60 - 63 like building the gear we've already designed.
But I don't know what the Discord timeline looks like so I'd imagine it is significantly more cramped than I assumed when timelining out this design... Then again, the Dragon being a multi turn means we're probably not putting a full 6 actions per turn into it.
This timeline also doesn't leave us room to go campaigning before the Firmir begin potentially opening portals into the void, so I suppose I'm against it.
 
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Way I figure it, if Snorri gives every guild that is interested in Khazagar exactly the same deal then not only does no one feel it is unfair, but eventually the statistics on what the Runesmiths in Khazagar are interested in will even out as every guild that already does a lot of business with Runesmiths jumps onto the wagon and gets an even playing field in terms of hiring Runesmiths.

Then Snorri can go to Rhunkalbrogg, and honestly say that he's changed nothing.

Snorri favoring or disfavoring particular guilds, on the other hand, will skew the statistics on what Khazagar Runesmiths are interested in and get us in hot water with the other Runelords. So we shouldn't do it.
 
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Got to say that when that Dragon Gronti is done it will be a super raid boss level monster. Like oh god can you imagine what you'd need to throw at it just to hurt let along kill that thing!

Like I can imagine most attacks just bouncing off it's armor.
 
Can we not do complex plans where every part of the dragon takes longer and longer because people add more and more to the wishlist? It's what killed the Grimnir Gronti. The combo we got is great. There is absolutely no need to waste a turn on compressing it and remaking our plans.

Not to mention that finding a combo for the Master Rune of Awakening was hard enough (it took us how many attempts? 5?), who says we'll find a combo for the Master Rune of Empowered Waking? How many tries will it take?
 
I'd only be willing to vote yes on metalsmith collab instead of the middle path if we got the option to extend that same opportunity to the Engineers again.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I would wait until soulcake gives an okay as this feels kinda cheesy to me. And I'd also wait until I heard from BungieONI that it can be fit in the timeline.
However given we've already substituted a design action on the high kings gift it does seem potentially doable. As long as we re pay that one design action.

Based on what Voikirium said that their Gronti couldn't be done until 59 without derailing any plans and that the design is one turned on 60, then we can compress on 61 if the complexity allows (MWaking complexity is currently 3, so we have relevant traits of 3Master Odd + 1 Engineering so assuming the minimum increase in complexity then its hitting the min action cap of two) then we redesign on 62? And build on 63? Seems like theres no way to avoid delaying the Dragon unless the dragon itself was already on the latest expected timeline and there were no requisites we needed to do on turns 60 - 63 like building the gear we've already designed.
But I don't know what the Discord timeline looks like so I'd imagine it is significantly more cramped than I assumed when timelining out this design... Then again, the Dragon being a multi turn means we're probably not putting a full 6 actions per turn into it.
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The 3 turn requirement is actually not a problem since worst case it'll be T58-60 and that fits just fine. Currently the goal is T58 does 3esp/2waystones with 1 free action tentatively for examining KKR. Karstah also designs the stormforging gear, starlight, starts a smelter, and builds flamedrinking. This turn definitely has very little leeway because we want esp and waystones in that order ideally and the designs have to start this turn as well.

T59 there's actually a bit more leeway now with the possibility of compressing deepgate meaning we can push the 3ap build of Brynbar down the road. This turn we have to build the stormforging gauntlets for 2ap, 1ap to build a smelter, and originally 3ap for Bryn. If you push that back, we get 3ap free from Snorri to potentially finish Soul or Body or something else but the smelter and gauntlets have to be done. Karstah has to spend 2ap to build the second smelter and then her last two are pencilled in for Starlight at the moment.

This is all assuming there is a storm on turn 60 and makes sure we have the needed 2 smelters, esp, waystones, and stormforging gear built and ready in time. This does not factor in the new timeline of actually building the dragon but it'll likely be a retainer/favor job overall. If the storm is later than T60, we have a lot more time and can probably get Body/Soul done. I haven't looked at how we're getting all the wyrm blood but I'm sure it's not going to be a fun time.
 
DragonParadox said:
This is like with Gromril chain, except it is not the expected outcome that we play favorites so we would inflict shame on the un-favorite.
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That's not true. The expected outcome depends on whether this is a societal or business deal.

I contend that this is a business deal, and being selective of our clients is normal. As is changing our position given changes in market conditions. That was why our Gromril chain was a relatively easy option inspite of how societal changing it was. Because outside of 1 group everyone else treated it as a business deal.

Unless you have some evidence to suggest that the MS or Engi guilds are treating it as something other than a business deal.
 
Pempelune said:
There is absolutely no need to waste a turn on compressing it and remaking our plans.
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Nobody (that I've read) is talking about reworking the plan, the compression talk is just excitement on the fact that we've finally got a combo with the M.Waking rune. That means that compressing it might be a path to making more headway into the gronti tech tree, along with hopefully Deep Magic as well.
 
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Evillevi said:
That's not true. The expected outcome depends on whether this is a societal or business deal.

I contend that this is a business deal, and being selective of our clients is normal. As is changing our position given changes in market conditions. That was why our Gromril chain was a relatively easy option inspite of how societal changing it was. Because outside of 1 group everyone else treated it as a business deal.

Unless you have some evidence to suggest that the MS or Engi guilds are treating it as something other than a business deal.
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If it's a business deal than the Rhuniversity is a business, that is not I think, an impression we want to foster.
 
Ultimately, the part that matters is this:
soulcake said:
In the decades since the Engineers had begun hosting tournaments, you did not sit idly by. Even if you weren't officially involved, you were still observing from afar, quietly and diligently collecting data out of personal interest and in case you ever needed to defend yourself to the House. The results so far had been in line with what you expected. An uptick in the amount of work that used Engineering Runes coincided with the timing of their competitions, and a growing number of young Engineers seen speaking to Journeymen and young Master Runesmiths. Both were expected.

But there were a few surprises. Several shops both in Khazid Okraz and in the Grozurbaz had started selling precision tooling components as several Runesmiths began dabbling with mechanisms more advanced than the standard crossbow. The fact that it was happening was expected, but not to the degree therein. Nothing on the scale of Guild Secrets were being shared obviously, you and the Engineers would come down on the offending parties like Drongrundum, but you didn't expect the visiting Runesmiths to go quite so deep. Similarly there was a noticeable shift in the attending Journeymen's interests, based on the data you were collecting. From what you can interpolate, it seems like young Journeymen who may have never been exposed to Engineers, were now coming to discover they actually had either a knack or interest in working with Engineering contraptions.
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That is Snorri changing Runesmith priorities in a large scale. Also known as a dangerous thing. But we can't go back, so we must go forward. Put every crafting guild at the same spot, statistics will equalize back to how they were before, and Snorri has done nothing wrong even by the strictest standard, the engineering interest was a fad which he in no way attempted to endorse. Favor some over another, and Snorri has deliberately exerted power over what other runesmiths can do in highly controversial ways.
 
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