RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Weirdo]

What's the point in even making such a small golem. At that point, you might as well directly make equipment for dwarves instead. A golem that small can be swarmed and eventually overtaken, whereas a golem the size of an ogre or whatever has significant advantages over such a small golem.

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The ogre golem can also have those things happen, the small golem is still much tougher and much stronger than any dwarf, and hero unit dwarves can do a lot as well.

You're really underestimating the uses of a smaller golem, it being small doesn't make it so "you may as well directly make equipment for dwarves instead". Even if you want a larger one, don't act like there's no use for a smaller one. I'm still hoping for sapient golem, which would be a major reason I'd go with a smaller golem, meaning the Golem would be comparable to a Dwarf hero unit but stronger (because golem, physically stronger and tougher)

The main thing I agree with in this particular sentiment is that an Ogre sized Gronti is just outright better at holding any particular chokepoint because it is bigger and takes up more space. To give a Dwarf sized Gronti comparable ability is possible and even likely to happen, but it is a consideration we would have to deal with. And a Dwarf sized Gronti is at a notable size disadvantage when trying to wrestle with a Bloodthirster or similar.

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I'm thinking that Dwarf sized golem could deal with a bloodthirster because iirc regular (albeit strong and skilled) dwarves could deal with a bloodthirster. But as you said, it is likely we could give similar abilities to a dwarf sized golem. Also, I can't really don't know exactly the size differences between a bloodthirster and ogre, but from the discussion in thread of a bloodthirster sized golem, I'm thinking that ogres would have similar problems, it'd also have a hard time "wrestling" with a bloodthirster, and in that situation I'd imagine the smaller size's likely greater speed/dexterity would come in more use (why challenge an enemy where they are strong when you could attack them where they are weak/weaker), to dodge attacks and target weaker points. It just doesn't make sense to compare strength vs the bloodthirster when both designs would lose in pure strength and size, instead look at what else it could do. At least, that's how I'm thinking about it

 

[BungieONI]

The ogre golem can also have those things happen, the small golem is still much tougher and much stronger than any dwarf, and hero unit dwarves can do a lot as well.

You're really underestimating the uses of a smaller golem, it being small doesn't make it so "you may as well directly make equipment for dwarves instead". Even if you want a larger one, don't act like there's no use for a smaller one. I'm still hoping for sapient golem, which would be a major reason I'd go with a smaller golem, meaning the Golem would be comparable to a Dwarf hero unit but stronger (because golem, physically stronger and tougher)

I'm thinking that Dwarf sized golem could deal with a bloodthirster because iirc regular (albeit strong and skilled) dwarves could deal with a bloodthirster. But as you said, it is likely we could give similar abilities to a dwarf sized golem. Also, I can't really don't know exactly the size differences between a bloodthirster and ogre, but from the discussion in thread of a bloodthirster sized golem, I'm thinking that ogres would have similar problems, it'd also have a hard time "wrestling" with a bloodthirster, and in that situation I'd imagine the smaller size's likely greater speed/dexterity would come in more use (why challenge an enemy where they are strong when you could attack them where they are weak/weaker), to dodge attacks and target weaker points. It just doesn't make sense to compare strength vs the bloodthirster when both designs would lose in pure strength and size, instead look at what else it could do. At least, that's how I'm thinking about it

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A bloodthirster is the size of a Balrog or thereabouts, ten meters tall and such or bigger for some and often their hands are big enough to completely encircle a man or dwarf and fling them about like ninepins. An Ogre is about 3 to 4 meters tall, about a third the height of a Bloodthirster.

I'm not comparing strength, because as you say they both lose anyway, but size and leverage. A dwarf sized Gronti is one that can be much more easily picked up or struck by a very big enemy and flung across a battlefield, and there isn't a ton it can do about that. A Ogre sized Gronti or bigger is much harder to fling in such a manner because it is simply heavier and girthier.

A dwarf sized Gronti will be able to fend off a great deal of attacks and tricks and weapons, we should assume probably a similar number of things to an Ogre sized one, but one thing it can't fend off as well is getting hit by a blow so strong on its shield or weapons that it is simply catapulted through the air like Snorri was versus the Greedy Troll. An Ogre sized one has an advantage in that it's greater mass resists such momentum much better.

 

[Weirdo]

A bloodthirster is the size of a Balrog or thereabouts, ten meters tall and such or bigger for some and often their hands are big enough to completely encircle a man or dwarf and fling them about like ninepins. An Ogre is about 3 to 4 meters tall, about a third the height of a Bloodthirster.

I'm not comparing strength, because as you say they both lose anyway, but size and leverage. A dwarf sized Gronti is one that can be much more easily picked up or struck by a very big enemy and flung across a battlefield, and there isn't a ton it can do about that. A Ogre sized Gronti or bigger is much harder to fling in such a manner because it is simply heavier and girthier.

A dwarf sized Gronti will be able to fend off a great deal of attacks and tricks and weapons, we should assume probably a similar number of things to an Ogre sized one, but one thing it can't fend off as well is getting hit by a blow so strong on its shield or weapons that it is simply catapulted through the air like Snorri was versus the Greedy Troll. An Ogre sized one has an advantage in that it's greater mass resists such momentum much better.

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If Bloodthirsters keep the demon tendency to just be stronger than anything their size should be, we'd have to rune either one to resist knock back, though you are right that the ogre sized one could probably resist a throw better. I'm just thinking that, based on the raw strength even small demons have, the Bloodthirster would be able to pick up a ogre sized Gronti as well, just using 2 hands instead of one, though if they aren't supernaturally strong even for something that size then this isn't correct.

However, since any golem we build would have to deal with knock back (and I'm thinking now we might want to put countermeasures on some armor to regular dwarves as well), what rune resists knock back or grapples (preferably both)? We could and probably should put something like that on all of our armors, we could probably combo it with a rune to resist blunt damage, since the biggest problem our armors will have won't be things cutting through them, or other "sharp" attacks, the biggest problem (I think) will be shocks from hits transferring through the armor itself, armor being strong doesn't stop the transfer of shocks, so something like the following rune combo could probably reduce damage significantly as well . So maybe, some sort of combo with a rune to resist knock back with probably conduction and a rune of stone, to transfer the force of strong blows to the ground. Either that or Rune of Spite instead of rune of Stone if our knock back resisting rune is absolute already, to make strong blows hit back at the attacker with similar force, might knock something over if they aren't prepared, which would allow dwarves to swarm it

TL;DR, both would probably have to deal with knock back and grapples, we need countermeasures to it, are there runes to resist both knock backs and grapples, we could combo it to make a knock back "thorns" effect on even regular dwarves armor, as they will need something to deal with that too

 

[BungieONI]

If Bloodthirsters keep the demon tendency to just be stronger than anything their size should be, we'd have to rune either one to resist knock back, though you are right that the ogre sized one could probably resist a throw better. I'm just thinking that, based on the raw strength even small demons have, the Bloodthirster would be able to pick up a ogre sized Gronti as well, just using 2 hands instead of one, though if they aren't supernaturally strong even for something that size then this isn't correct.

However, since any golem we build would have to deal with knock back (and I'm thinking now we might want to put countermeasures on some armor to regular dwarves as well), what rune resists knock back or grapples (preferably both)? We could and probably should put something like that on all of our armors, we could probably combo it with a rune to resist blunt damage, since the biggest problem our armors will have won't be things cutting through them, or other "sharp" attacks, the biggest problem (I think) will be shocks from hits transferring through the armor itself, armor being strong doesn't stop the transfer of shocks, so something like the following rune combo could probably reduce damage significantly as well . So maybe, some sort of combo with a rune to resist knock back with probably conduction and a rune of stone, to transfer the force of strong blows to the ground. Either that or Rune of Spite instead of rune of Stone if our knock back resisting rune is absolute already, to make strong blows hit back at the attacker with similar force, might knock something over if they aren't prepared, which would allow dwarves to swarm it

TL;DR, both would probably have to deal with knock back and grapples, we need countermeasures to it, are there runes to resist both knock backs and grapples, we could combo it to make a knock back "thorns" effect on even regular dwarves armor, as they will need something to deal with that too

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Right yeah, two hands for a Bloodthirster was about what I was thinking and that's useful since that means focusing on lifting Ymir and not smacking it with weapons which leaves Ymir free to beat on the daemon's head and back or to resist in other means.

In terms of anti-knock back runes we mostly have options to impair the enemies physical abilities: The Rune of Slowness, and the Struck Runes of Wrath and Ruin which are more of an ability of Snorri which he uses to crush enemies under the weight of a mountain. There isn't any form of "make you heavier" rune that is known to us players, but Snorri might know one. We'd have to ask Soulcake.

But this sort of highlights the issue facing us. A Bloodthirster sized Gronti is so heavy that we need to negate some of its weight for purposes of travel, while a Dwarf sized Gronti faces the opposite form of the problem in that it is too light and can be flung away by an enemy supercombatant. An Ogre sized Gronti still faces this issue, but its one we'd have to spend less work fixing because it is already naturally very heavy.

 

[rx915]

Could a golem benefit with a rune of daemon slaying that any daemon it touches gets a nasty burn?

 

[BungieONI]

Could a golem benefit with a rune of daemon slaying that any daemon it touches gets a nasty burn?

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Possibly?

 

[jjffjhjf]

Any chance we can hire a grandmaster engineer to make a clockwork gronti body, that we'd then rune up? Seems like something that would be pretty cool. Also, likely faster/stronger than a regular gronti.

 

[Weirdo]

Right yeah, two hands for a Bloodthirster was about what I was thinking and that's useful since that means focusing on lifting Ymir and not smacking it with weapons which leaves Ymir free to beat on the daemon's head and back or to resist in other means.

In terms of anti-knock back runes we mostly have options to impair the enemies physical abilities: The Rune of Slowness, and the Struck Runes of Wrath and Ruin which are more of an ability of Snorri which he uses to crush enemies under the weight of a mountain. There isn't any form of "make you heavier" rune that is known to us players, but Snorri might know one. We'd have to ask Soulcake.

But this sort of highlights the issue facing us. A Bloodthirster sized Gronti is so heavy that we need to negate some of its weight for purposes of travel, while a Dwarf sized Gronti faces the opposite form of the problem in that it is too light and can be flung away by an enemy supercombatant. An Ogre sized Gronti still faces this issue, but its one we'd have to spend less work fixing because it is already naturally very heavy.

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I'm thinking less "get heavier" rune and more "rooted to the ground" or "braced" or something similar, since getting too heavy to lift seems to be a losing proposition, with the sheer strength the Bloodthirster has its probably quite difficult to get there, especially if we wanted to make regular dwarves these sorts of armors.

 

[BungieONI]

Any chance we can hire a grandmaster engineer to make a clockwork gronti body, that we'd then rune up? Seems like something that would be pretty cool. Also, likely faster/stronger than a regular gronti.

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Probably not, since in the context of Rune Guardians which are Gronti made with gears and runes is that they're a crutch of WHF modern Runesmiths who can't replicate the feats of Runesmiths of Snorri's time who can just animate statues.

I'm thinking less "get heavier" rune and more "rooted to the ground" or "braced" or something similar, since getting too heavy to lift seems to be a losing proposition, with the sheer strength the Bloodthirster has its probably quite difficult to get there, especially if we wanted to make regular dwarves these sorts of armors.

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Quite likely, and unfortunately there aren't any that I know of. Like I said though Snorri himself might know one.

 

[Captain Spatula]

Could a golem benefit with a rune of daemon slaying that any daemon it touches gets a nasty burn?

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If we can somehow tie in the relevant purity of an adamant golem and weaponise that before tying it into a rune of Daemonslaying I imagine it would produce wonderful results. It'd take some tweaking to get the rune right I suppose, and weaponising the Order part of adamant might take even longer but it would be an interesting experiment.

 

[Garlak]

I'm thinking less "get heavier" rune and more "rooted to the ground" or "braced" or something similar, since getting too heavy to lift seems to be a losing proposition, with the sheer strength the Bloodthirster has its probably quite difficult to get there, especially if we wanted to make regular dwarves these sorts of armors.

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Quite likely, and unfortunately there aren't any that I know of. Like I said though Snorri himself might know one.

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To be fair, to me this sounds like a Rune they might have. Because "really solid footing and braced on the ground" and "Immovable Object" sounds like very Dwarfy virtues, yeah? So therefore the Runes for it, the language and words for it, because let's not forget the cool turn of phrase soulcake gave us -- "TLDR: Rune Magic is the dream of every Longbeard ever, Weaponized Language" -- probably means that Dwarfy attributes are probably easy to reach and grab hold of in Runes.

Hm, I can actually even see it on tabletop too -- mechanically, it would be something to cancel out the enemy's bonus from a Charge (the Rune of Slowing already does that, this would be another way to achieve that result basically) or, or, it would be something to remove "Impact Hits" from Chariots or special traits on a charge (I think Ogres get Impact Hits) and "Thunderstomp" from Large Targets. To clarify, "remove Thunderstomp/Impact Hits" isn't something that already exists on tabletop (... that I remember, anyway) but rather this is just me going "Oh hey neat, I can even see it happening mechanically, see a way it'd be represented in-game."

(On tabletop, Large Targets do something called a "Thunderstomp." When in melee with opponents, they automatically inflict some Hits on the enemy. To signify them being very large, and the fact that just moving about and running into things can injure or kill -- or splatter -- smaller things.)

If we can somehow tie in the relevant purity of an adamant golem and weaponise that before tying it into a rune of Daemonslaying I imagine it would produce wonderful results. It'd take some tweaking to get the rune right I suppose, and weaponising the Order part of adamant might take even longer but it would be an interesting experiment.

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Oh my yes. Oh, I am itching to make a Daemonslaying weapon out of Adamant...

And armor, too, come to think of it... Daemonward would be pretty good on something out of Adamant, wouldn't it?

 

[Captain Spatula]

Oh my yes. Oh, I am itching to make a Daemonslaying weapon out of Adamant...

And armor, too, come to think of it... Daemonward would be pretty good on something out of Adamant, wouldn't it?

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Like I said, an interesting experiment. The most Killy weapon in universe is Widowmaker. And that was made by a god of order in their godly realm. From memory anyway.

Adamant is probably as close as mortals can get to imitating something that killy against non order beings. Especially if we can somehow tie in the physical and metaphysical purity of the metal. If that can be tied into a rune of daemonslaying I can genuinely see it permakilling them. Or at least causing some kind of cascade failure for the daemon in question causing it to explode.

We'd have to be damn sure there's no way for any being to have an in to corrupt the weapons though because it'd ruin all of the work we'd do to tie in the purity of it. Maybe it'd be that pure, physically and metaphysically, it would hurt chaos aligned beings on contact preventing them from picking it up.

Granted that final bit may need triple runes or Daemonslaying.

Adamant Armour blessed with Valaya, Grungni and Sanctuary would probably make it so the wearer is damn near immune to magic and projectile weapons. Anti magic aura combining with the adamant properties, Valaya to weaken the magic further and Grungni to absorb the weakened magic and make a barrier against ranged attacks.

 

[Red Bovine]

On the ogre punch, yes you're correct, I'm just assuming that the weapons of other dwarves would be better than just a punch, though you're right that the ogre sized golem would be better than a Grimnir sized one unarmed

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Think you are seriously underestimating how hard an Ogre sized chunk of super metal can hit. Especially if we say gave it a rune of might on it's body. Throw in that losing ones weapon is pretty rare and that the Gronti would still be extremely dangerous and probably still be able to use some of the bigger Dwarf weapons don't really think that is much of an issue.

The big thing I think this doesn't address is that something that's entirely adamant will be completely pure, while something that's partially gromril is still tainted. I think that's likely to be a critical difference on a metaphysical level, and we know this kind of thing matters. Look at the prior mention of the importance of intent for a parallel. I think a purity of intent (given that the taint of Warpstone, solidified dark magic, is a form of intent/emotion, because that's what magic is in Warhammer), might make a significant difference to the quality of the final outcome. Also, accepting any flaw or compromise in the purity of the materials represents something about Snorri's own intent.

I'm mainly looking at this from a metaphysical/symbolic level, as I think when you get to the point of throwing this much magic around, that's the overriding consideration, more than making up for deficits in the bulk physical qualities. Particularly if we can do something to get it to channel something of Grimnir's nature, as a walking icon of him.

And on weapon size, it may be the same amount of actions to make ogre as dwarf weapons, but no one else can use ogre sized weapons and vice versa, while that's not true for a Grimnir sized golem. For example, one day we might really need it to go up against enemies vulnerable to fire, etc

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My issue with this argument is that it's mainly based upon some very strong assumptions that can be wrong.

 

[IronFist]

The role of a dwarf sized golem is very different to a larger sized one.
It would fight tirelessly alongside regular dwarfs, and the weapon loadout would become far more relevant.
It would still be a hardpoint, but only as much as a nearly Indestructible, tireless dwarf armed to the teeth dwarf would be.

It would need some area of effect defence on it though, as being swarmed becomes a relevant problem.

 

[Atlas]

For me bigger is generally better especially considering a Gronti's purpose which is basically being a giant 'come here and fight me or I'll pulp your army' sign for super combatants in the field this can be done much more easily if you're not dwarf sized with a dwarf's reach and weapons : an ogre or greater sized Gronti can have a sledgehammer with a head the size of a watermelon and a much greater reach and probably also a better swing arc by swinging over smaller enemies/allies meaning it can hit many enemies with devastating blows quite easily while a dwarf sized one can only be an unbreakable hard point while not much else .
Then there is the point of mass with a bigger golem being much much harder to push around or to pick up and yeet away which I'd imagine could become a problem when stacking against super combatants like giants. Then there is the mobility factor: a bigger golem even if stiffer and more rigid in it's movement in comparison to a dwarf it would probably move much quicker due to it's longer stride and finally the fact that a crippling blow to a small Gronti would be a survivable injury ( ignoring the fact that for something to cut an adamant Gronti in two it would need to be incredibly strong) for a bigger one I agree that the Grimnir sized adamant one is an interesting concept however for me it feels like a waste to use the heart on it.
People on the other hand seem to be stuck between ogre sized(2.5 meters)
and bloodyhirster size(10 meters) forgetting everything in between; for me the sweet spot would be in the middle at 5~6 meters. It would be bigger than most things and much heavier than almost anything else while not having a horrible reach in comparison to bigger super combatants which if ogre sized could probably just keep on wacking it while staying out of it's range

TL;DR dwarf sized Gronti interesting but bigger ones are generally better in most categories

 

[veekie]

And yes there are places in a Hold other than the Underway but as I pointed out if an enemy actually reaches those places we're already up shit creak because that means they've broken our defenses. If Ymir is forced to fight within the Hold itself than we've already lost so the point is moot.

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Point of order: the major halls in a Hold should be larger than the Underway in physical volume...and as the Skaven may yet demonstrate, fighting inside a Hold should be accounted for, lest you have your soft insides vulnerable to whatever gets through the outer shells without breaking the shell by force.

If Bloodthirsters keep the demon tendency to just be stronger than anything their size should be, we'd have to rune either one to resist knock back, though you are right that the ogre sized one could probably resist a throw better. I'm just thinking that, based on the raw strength even small demons have, the Bloodthirster would be able to pick up a ogre sized Gronti as well, just using 2 hands instead of one, though if they aren't supernaturally strong even for something that size then this isn't correct.

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I think you are missing out significantly on how much mass that much metal would pack.
The density of iron is 7.874 grams per cubic centimeter
The density of flesh is approximately 1 gram per cubic centimeter.
An ogre sized Gronti made entirely out of metal would weigh at least the same as the Bloodthirster twice its height(if you were very charitable about the build of the Bloodthirster and assume that gromril/adamant weighs the same as iron), if its going to need to throw the Gronti it's going to need to go into a full on grapple and do kaijiu Judo. And then it'd throw the Gronti maybe twenty feet rather than yeet it across the mountains.

 

[UlseDovThur]

Point of order: the major halls in a Hold should be larger than the Underway in physical volume...and as the Skaven may yet demonstrate, fighting inside a Hold should be accounted for, lest you have your soft insides vulnerable to whatever gets through the outer shells without breaking the shell by force.

I think you are missing out significantly on how much mass that much metal would pack.
The density of iron is 7.874 grams per cubic centimeter
The density of flesh is approximately 1 gram per cubic centimeter.
An ogre sized Gronti made entirely out of metal would weigh at least the same as the Bloodthirster twice its height(if you were very charitable about the build of the Bloodthirster and assume that gromril/adamant weighs the same as iron), if its going to need to throw the Gronti it's going to need to go into a full on grapple and do kaijiu Judo. And then it'd throw the Gronti maybe twenty feet rather than yeet it across the mountains.

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Not accounting for the Skaven because they aren't a thing yet and won't be for thousands of years and as far as I'm aware at least there aren't really any other factions that are capable of circumventing our defenses like that. Because they aren't a thing think of the threats that do exist right now.

First and foremost this far north would be a horde of Daemons. They don't really do the whole tunneling thing so the only real way for a large force of them to get within the Holds interior is through our external defenses. If they managed that then they are most likely such a large force that we are forced to withdraw to our defenses or they defeat us in the field.

In either scenario we are unable to stop them even with all of our defenses so how would we be able to stop them if they are already within the Hold past our defenses presumably after our forces have been bled dry after we've done all we can to stop them? That's why I'm saying that if a sizable enemy force is within the Hold proper than we have already lost because we would have already tried everything and exhausted our forces in doing so. Baring a last minute save from another Hold if we get to that point our only option would be evacuation.

Those calculations would be great if we weren't talking about a literal Demon the size of a large building that belongs under the domain of a god of war and murder. Something tells me that it's probably far stronger than even it's size would indicate. Please remember that when dealing with daemons and the warp in general that common sense and the laws of reality become very, very, malleable things.

 

[veekie]

Not accounting for the Skaven because they aren't a thing yet and won't be for thousands of years and as far as I'm aware at least there aren't really any other factions that are capable of circumventing our defenses like that. Because they aren't a thing think of the threats that do exist right now.

First and foremost this far north would be a horde of Daemons. They don't really do the whole tunneling thing so the only real way for a large force of them to get within the Holds interior is through our external defenses. If they managed that then they are most likely such a large force that we are forced to withdraw to our defenses or they defeat us in the field.

In either scenario we are unable to stop them even with all of our defenses so how would we be able to stop them if they are already within the Hold past our defenses presumably after our forces have been bled dry after we've done all we can to stop them? That's why I'm saying that if a sizable enemy force is within the Hold proper than we have already lost because we would have already tried everything and exhausted our forces in doing so. Baring a last minute save from another Hold if we get to that point our only option would be evacuation.

Those calculations would be great if we weren't talking about a literal Demon the size of a large building that belongs under the domain of a god of war and murder. Something tells me that it's probably far stronger than even it's size would indicate. Please remember that when dealing with daemons and the warp in general that common sense and the laws of reality become very, very, malleable things.

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Nevermind the Skaven then. The Shard Dragon that popped up in the other holds.
Like, its Defense 101 to never assume a direction is safe.

And if the weight matters that little, then being simply bigger wouldn't help either. If the weight matters, then the Bloodthirster would be dealing with it like its another Bloodthirster.

 

[Red Bovine]

Not accounting for the Skaven because they aren't a thing yet and won't be for thousands of years and as far as I'm aware at least there aren't really any other factions that are capable of circumventing our defenses like that. Because they aren't a thing think of the threats that do exist right now.

First and foremost this far north would be a horde of Daemons. They don't really do the whole tunneling thing so the only real way for a large force of them to get within the Holds interior is through our external defenses. If they managed that then they are most likely such a large force that we are forced to withdraw to our defenses or they defeat us in the field.

In either scenario we are unable to stop them even with all of our defenses so how would we be able to stop them if they are already within the Hold past our defenses presumably after our forces have been bled dry after we've done all we can to stop them? That's why I'm saying that if a sizable enemy force is within the Hold proper than we have already lost because we would have already tried everything and exhausted our forces in doing so. Baring a last minute save from another Hold if we get to that point our only option would be evacuation.

Those calculations would be great if we weren't talking about a literal Demon the size of a large building that belongs under the domain of a god of war and murder. Something tells me that it's probably far stronger than even it's size would indicate. Please remember that when dealing with daemons and the warp in general that common sense and the laws of reality become very, very, malleable things.

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Already pointed out the problem with the defense debate by pointing out that the Hold would likely have defenses inside the hold as well and not just outside it. If enemies do make it past the Hold's outer defenses then they would still need to deal with the ones inside the hold itself and by then the enemy forces would have been depleted doing so. Not to mention that the Hold would also still have Dwarfs to defend it inside of it.

 

[tri2]

Already pointed out the problem with the defense debate by pointing out that the Hold would likely have defenses inside the hold as well and not just outside it. If enemies do make it past the Hold's outer defenses then they would still need to deal with the ones inside the hold itself and by then the enemy forces would have been depleted doing so. Not to mention that the Hold would also still have Dwarfs to defend it inside of it.

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then again, dwarves do know with demons, their numbers are effectively numberless till the winds settle down right?

 

[Red Bovine]

then again, dwarves do know with demons, their numbers are effectively numberless till the winds settle down right?

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Thing is that it appears that there is a limit to how many Daemons can manifest at a time. We see this as shown with the last campaign against the Daemon hordes where Grimnir and the Throngs decimated the daemon hordes to the point that it won't be an issue for a long while. I imagine something a water hose hooked up to the ocean, while yes the hose can shoot out an oceans worth of water it can only do a bit of a time.

 

[tri2]

Thing is that it appears that there is a limit to how many Daemons can manifest at a time. We see this as shown with the last campaign against the Daemon hordes where Grimnir and the Throngs decimated the daemon hordes to the point that it won't be an issue for a long while. I imagine something a water hose hooked up to the ocean, while yes the hose can shoot out an oceans worth of water it can only do a bit of a time.

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wait, i forget, but was it mentioned that the demon incursions have been noticed to have been worsening or not?

 

[Alratan]

For me bigger is generally better especially considering a Gronti's purpose which is basically being a giant 'come here and fight me or I'll pulp your army' sign for super combatants in the field this can be done much more easily if you're not dwarf sized with a dwarf's reach and weapons : an ogre or greater sized Gronti can have a sledgehammer with a head the size of a watermelon and a much greater reach and probably also a better swing arc by swinging over smaller enemies/allies meaning it can hit many enemies with devastating blows quite easily while a dwarf sized one can only be an unbreakable hard point while not much else .

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Is that a gronti's purpose though. The later tube guardians were ogre sized, but I believe that at least some of the example of rune golems we see described in material about later times were at least roughly dwarf sized, as they were statues of dwarven ancestors, and not described as being particularly larger than life.

I suspect that there are as many styles of golem as their are runesmiths who specialise in making them, each with their characteristics designed to fit their own niche, not one size fits all approach. They're all works of art, after all, as each has a Master Rune.

 

[Red Bovine]

wait, i forget, but was it mentioned that the demon incursions have been noticed to have been worsening or not?

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I think they have but my point still stands. The hordes of daemons seeming 'endless' is only due to them being able to manifest a lot more easily compared to the post Vortex era that prevents it. Even without our insane defenses the Karak's were able to hold off the Daemon hordes for literally decades until the Vortex was created.

 

[Weirdo]

So, actually a few questions. What are the Demon types out there? I have a general idea of what each chaos god has, but what are the Odd ones out?

Also, could there be a bunch of extra types of demons? Because pre vortex means they don't have to be efficient with their magic use, and so could have lots of small, even more specialized demons for specific tasks